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Enjoy posted:Counterpoint: the genocide campaign of the Nazis would not have happened lol.
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Jul 15, 2020 20:59
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GunnerJ posted:brb updating the victims of communism list pretty sure they are already included lol
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Jul 15, 2020 21:00
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Enjoy posted:Counterpoint: the genocide campaign of the Nazis would not have happened first, nazi genocide campaigns started really shifting gears sometime around 1937-8, when molotov thing happened it was already a done deal second, do you think sacrificing another an extra 10-20 million eastern european draftees in the garbage fire of ww2 would be somehow better than what had happened? if yes please explain how
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Jul 15, 2020 21:03
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Enjoy posted:The Germans were using horses and they got from the German-Soviet border to Leningrad in 6 weeks. 
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Jul 15, 2020 21:06
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nazis, the true victims of communism
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Jul 15, 2020 21:11
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If I were Stalin, I would have simply beaten the Nazis right away.
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Jul 15, 2020 21:12
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GunnerJ posted:If I were Stalin, I would have simply beaten the Nazis right away. interesting. personally i would have ensured the success of the revolution in germany and the subsequent inevitable spread of global communism but you do you i guess
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Jul 15, 2020 21:40
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obviously stalin should have stabbed hitler back in 1913 when they were both living in Vienna
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Jul 15, 2020 22:04
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The idea the Red Army was capable of taking on the Wehrmacht in 1939 is laughable. Everyone in the stavka new that they needed YEARS to reorganize their formations and control structure, mobilize (and train!) the huge number of men needed to even get parity with the Axis, replace all their obsolescent weapons (especially tanks), just to properly defend the Soviet Union. Yes, the purge of the Red Army command structure in 1937 definitely contributed to these problems, particularly in the area of doctrine and training. But doctrine doesn't build the thousands of T-34s and trucks you need to build mechanized divisions that can fight the kind of war Germany was waging. Oh the Germans were using horse drawn carts? Yeah. In their rifle divisions. The panzer divisions used trucks, because that's what you need for your infantry to keep up with the tanks. It was not until the end of 1942 the Soviet Union really completed the work necessary to turn the Red Army into a force that could fight on the terms of German operational warfare, and implement their own ideas about deep battle. And was not until 1943 until any country's military was able to successfully prevent a penetration through the front line by German panzer divisions, namely at the Kursk salient. Its infuriating the way people keep insisting on finding ways to paint the Soviet Union and Stalin as the villains of WWII. No country paid more dearly than the Soviet Union in the quest to destroy the fascist project, and even the cause of the western allies is nowhere near as righteous as the war the people of Russia fought to defeat the aggressors. Its disgusting to suggest that somehow the Holocaust is actually Stalin's fault because he didn't volunteer the lives of millions of Russian people to a war he knew they couldn't win. Its malicious to argue that if only he had done something in 1940 while France fell there would be no mass death. Not even considering that the loving French and British abandoned their obligations to Czechoslovakia in 1938, ruthlessly feeding them to the fascist wolves, while the Soviets clamored for cooperation to stop just that. People mock studying military history, but one thing it taught me is how much the narrative about the Soviet Union in WWII is fashioned literally from fascist propaganda. This poo poo is no better than the lie that Barbarossa was a pre-emptive attack to stop some completely made up plan by Stalin to conquer Europe.
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Jul 15, 2020 22:06
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The Edward Mead Earle essay posted on the Rhizzone a couple years ago is pretty good - Soviet Strategy in the Great Patriotic War
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Jul 15, 2020 22:12
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i sure do not Enjoy this guys posts
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Jul 15, 2020 22:16
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Tired: Molotov-Ribbentrop was a betrayal of the socialist project Wired: Yalta was a betrayal of the socialist project Soviet tanks shouldn't have stopped rolling until they were in Lisbon.
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Jul 15, 2020 22:19
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Enjoy posted:Counterpoint: the genocide campaign of the Nazis would not have happened How exactly do you figure?
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Jul 15, 2020 22:24
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“Hell yeah id kill baby Hitler” - Josef Stalin
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Jul 15, 2020 22:28
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Atrocious Joe posted:Soviet tanks shouldn't have stopped rolling until they were in Lisbon.
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Jul 15, 2020 22:54
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GalacticAcid posted:The Edward Mead Earle essay posted on the Rhizzone a couple years ago is pretty good - Soviet Strategy in the Great Patriotic War This was an excellent read. Thank you for posting it.
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Jul 15, 2020 23:38
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second
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Jul 16, 2020 00:11
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I couldn't find a pdf of that book with the chapter present. It seems to have been replaced with an essay by Condoleezza Rice lmao
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Jul 16, 2020 00:20
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I can't very well blame uncop for not answering, after my drunken outburst, but just for the sake of clarifying my own views, I think a pragmatic attitude towards questions of line and truth are dangerous, and ultimately fatal for communists. To say that we uphold a line simply because it is directed against our enemies, by honest comrades, regardless of its factual correctness, while understandably tempting on a moral level, is damaging to our cause. If we "caricature" our enemies with false accusations, or brush under the rug real difficulties, more broadly if we accept that it is permissible to be dishonest, whether in agitation or propaganda, we will do irreparable damage to the struggle. A casual attitude to the truth, in every case, has longer term bad consequences that outweigh whatever momentary advantages it can offer. If the party lies to the people, these are the possible results: In the case of people outside the party, and outside the party's orbit, some will recognize the lie, will learn to mistrust the party. Some will not, but these people will be disoriented, and like a landmine we plant the possibility of later disillusionment. In the case of cadre and supporters, we may disorient them, we may accustom them to accept whatever they hear from leadership, whether or not they understand it, which in the long run can only serve opportunist tendencies, or we may train them to be cynical in their communism, which again can only strengthen opportunism, or we may turn them against us, lead them to see us as cynical manipulators, and thereby drive principled workers out of our organizations.
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Jul 16, 2020 03:05
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Enjoy posted:They required those trucks because infrastructure in the USSR was bad. It was good in Germany and Poland, which is why Blitzkrieg worked there Yeah definitely no need for the Soviets to improve infrastructure in Poland before they attack the Nazis. What am i on the alternatehistory forums?? Gross
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Jul 16, 2020 17:14
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Enjoy posted:Delaying the war until after France had fallen was insane and cost millions of Soviet lives It's telling you didn't attempt to explain your reasoning. even thinking about that proposition for a second would reveal how much absurd magical thinking it relies on
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Jul 16, 2020 18:34
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Dreddout posted:It's telling you didn't attempt to explain your reasoning. even thinking about that proposition for a second would reveal how much absurd magical thinking it relies on The explanation took place over the last few pages
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Jul 16, 2020 18:45
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Enjoy posted:The explanation took place over the last few pages And it was a very dumb explanation that relied upon magical thinking, good job.
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Jul 16, 2020 19:35
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Dreddout posted:And it was a very dumb explanation that relied upon magical thinking, good job. I don't think "German soldiers were not actually ubermensch" is magical thinking
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Jul 16, 2020 19:44
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Enjoy posted:I don't think "German soldiers were not actually ubermensch" is magical thinking Pretty much everyone agrees that the Soviet Army was generally in poorer operational condition in June 1940, especially since it was Winter War had only wrapped up weeks earlier. It doesn't mean individual German soldiers were ubermensch...because that is a thing you made up.
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Jul 16, 2020 20:27
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Ardennes posted:Pretty much everyone agrees that the Soviet Army was generally in poorer operational condition in June 1940, especially since it was Winter War had only wrapped up weeks earlier. It doesn't mean individual German soldiers were ubermensch...because that is a thing you made up. The Winter War (and the invasion of Poland for that matter) demonstrates that the USSR was able to sustain combat operations involving almost a million soldiers for months at a time.
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Jul 16, 2020 20:31
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Enjoy posted:The Winter War (and the invasion of Poland for that matter) demonstrates that the USSR was able to sustain combat operations involving almost a million soldiers for months at a time. War with Germany and its allies was going to take more than a million soldiers. You forget that Italy, Hungary, Slovakia, and Romania were also allies of Germany at that time (also that Finland was a possible "co-belligerent"). The Soviets wouldn't be just marching on Berlin, but fighting nearly half of Europe and in this case, would be the "aggressor" with an army that would need years of re-organization. It was and still is a bad idea.
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Jul 16, 2020 20:39
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Does anyone know of any works on criminology in the context of actually existing socialist states? The broad stroke that I've gathered is that the gist of policy prescription to it is: poverty reduction, inclusion, and education; but, beyond that I can't find anything without a barrage of gulag poo poo.
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Jul 16, 2020 20:53
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Ardennes posted:War with Germany and its allies was going to take more than a million soldiers. Those countries only entered the war after the fall of France, when Germany was the clear hegemon in Europe. We're positing USSR entry prior to that.
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Jul 16, 2020 21:04
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british admiral av guy saying the soviets shoulda fed themselves into a meatgrinder is a very hilarious gimmick
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Jul 16, 2020 21:15
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Enjoy posted:The Winter War (and the invasion of Poland for that matter) demonstrates that the USSR was able to sustain combat operations involving almost a million soldiers for months at a time. you're not even trying at this point
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Jul 16, 2020 21:24
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Enjoy posted:The Winter War (and the invasion of Poland for that matter) demonstrates that the USSR was able to sustain combat operations involving almost a million soldiers for months at a time.
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Jul 16, 2020 21:42
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If we must do althist, what's the risk that an early Soviet attack in Germany ends up with them getting attacked by the Western Allies
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Jul 16, 2020 21:55
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StashAugustine posted:If we must do althist, what's the risk that an early Soviet attack in Germany ends up with them getting attacked by the Western Allies A Soviet attack on both Poland and Finland did not result in this so zero
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Jul 16, 2020 22:01
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Enjoy posted:Those countries only entered the war after the fall of France, when Germany was the clear hegemon in Europe. We're positing USSR entry prior to that. Btw Italy helped invade France, but yeah, all of them would have absolutely been called in to defend the Reich against a hoard of commies. It was a dumb idea. The Soviets would have been bogged down fighting on multiple fronts in an offensive war they weren't ready to fight. It may have actually put them in an even worse position than 1941, especially if/when the Germans call a ceasefire in the west. Also, the Soviets signed a peace treaty with Finland, partly because of potential British/French intervention. Ardennes fucked around with this message at 22:25 on Jul 16, 2020 |
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Jul 16, 2020 22:19
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StashAugustine posted:If we must do althist, what's the risk that an early Soviet attack in Germany ends up with them getting attacked by the Western Allies https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Pike https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco-British_plans_for_intervention_in_the_Winter_War I'd say pretty near a certainty. Pomeroy fucked around with this message at 22:57 on Jul 16, 2020 |
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Jul 16, 2020 22:53
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Pomeroy posted:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Pike Both of those are explicitly because the USSR was aligned with the Germans. If the USSR attacked Germany, then that would undercut the point of the operations.
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Jul 16, 2020 23:19
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Do you seriously think France or Britain would have considered a Soviet occupied Germany an acceptable outcome? In a circumstance where they were both more or less undamaged?
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Jul 16, 2020 23:31
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Pomeroy posted:Do you seriously think France or Britain would have considered a Soviet occupied Germany an acceptable outcome? In a circumstance where they were both more or less undamaged? Oh so now the Soviet armies reach Berlin without a problem? And yes I think it would be seen as a fait accompli and an early start to the Cold War minus the millions who had to die from the Nazi genocide machine
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Jul 16, 2020 23:35
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Peepee poopoo, fart fart poopy pee
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Jul 16, 2020 23:36
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