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Cyrus, the great king, kitty of Anshan,
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Jul 14, 2020 01:44
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Libluini posted:This makes me think, what did the ancient civilizations of the Americas and of Australia think about the world? Where they aware that there were other continents, or did for example the ancient American civilizations think the Americas was all there is? Ancient aboriginals were not a civilisation or empire in the sense you are thinking of. Australia is a continent the size of Europe and at the time of Captain Cooks arrival there were hundreds of independent nations. Their societies didn't value conquest like say, the Romans. The aboriginals who greeted captain cook in botany bay would have had no living memory of the islands just to the north of Australia, or of Tasmania, or even something like Uluru, but the nations in those areas would have. You wouldn't expect someone in pre-medieval Poland to know about England, that's the scale of distance we are talking here. By the time of Cooks arrival, aboriginals had been in Australia for 60 000+ years, perhaps over 80 000. Universally they were a culture that had a strong oral tradition, and a surprisingly accurate one as we are now discovering. Their stories track accurately to real life events in the areas those stories are from. Aboriginal culture very very strongly values connection to land, and the people on a particular parcel of land had inhabited that land for hundreds of generations. Stories of floods track accurately in the geological record, stories of megafauna track accurately to where human buried bones of hunted megafauna can be found to this day. White people literally waged a war of extinction, and up until even the 1970s we were still stealing black kids. Their oral traditions were completely and utterly destroyed, except for a tiny little sliver. We will never know how much they knew, and if any nations still had stories of when their people migrated through the south east asian islands to Queensland. The Brits called Australia, Terra Nullius, ie land of noone, and therefore had to wipe out any signs of any civilisation at all to keep justifying what they were doing. Did they know about say, China? Probably not. Did they know anything about the rest of the world? We destroyed any records at the barrel of a gun. Miss Broccoli fucked around with this message at 04:39 on Jul 14, 2020 |
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Jul 14, 2020 04:28
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There was trade across the Torres Strait with New Guinea, and some evidence of limited contact between Arnhem Land and Sulawesi. Of course, as you noted, even if northern Australians had knowledge of some parts of the rest of the world, there's no reason to believe that knowledge would have filtered to the rest of Australia.
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Jul 14, 2020 07:15
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Miss Broccoli posted:Ancient aboriginals were not a civilisation or empire in the sense you are thinking of. Australia is a continent the size of Europe and at the time of Captain Cooks arrival there were hundreds of independent nations. Their societies didn't value conquest like say, the Romans. The aboriginals who greeted captain cook in botany bay would have had no living memory of the islands just to the north of Australia, or of Tasmania, or even something like Uluru, but the nations in those areas would have. You wouldn't expect someone in pre-medieval Poland to know about England, that's the scale of distance we are talking here. Maybe they had an oral tradition of Lives of Famous Whores, passed along from trade with the Romans. We’ll never know. 
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Jul 14, 2020 07:19
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Appreciate the map, could i request some help sourcing the quote that reads something like [He] was surprised to learn that Alexander, having [conquered the world/accomplished all he set out to do] by age 32, [did not find/was not interested in] setting order to his Empire? For the life of me I can't find it on google.
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Jul 14, 2020 15:20
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According to the news Cleopatra's tomb might've been found. They found a tomb with two mummies and coins with her portrait on. I think it's wise to be sceptical until they discover something more concrete though.
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Jul 14, 2020 15:54
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Alhazred posted:According to the news Cleopatra's tomb might've been found. They found a tomb with two mummies and coins with her portrait on. I think it's wise to be sceptical until they discover something more concrete though. Dang that's cool
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Jul 14, 2020 16:06
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Silver2195 posted:I always found the idea that Alexander "conquered the [known] world" really bizarre. He didn't even finish conquering India or the Middle East, and he hardly conquered any of Europe outside of Greece. I mean, like others have said, outside of India maybe all these places were considered barely inhabitable shitholes at the time. There's a reason that even centuries later the richest parts of the Empire were all in the eastern Mediterranean.
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Jul 14, 2020 16:27
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Alhazred posted:According to the news Cleopatra's tomb might've been found. They found a tomb with two mummies and coins with her portrait on. I think it's wise to be sceptical until they discover something more concrete though. Remember archaeologists very, very frequently claim they've found the tomb/body of X famous person because they're always desperate for money to go on digs. Do not ever believe it when it's news, wait for actual info later.
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Jul 14, 2020 16:47
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I wonder if crowd funding would work. Access to photos videos and materials as found. Interviews with key archaeologists. Maybe, depending, even some of the stuff they find that's not archeologicially interesting or wanted by museums (unless this opens a can of works I'm not seeing right now).
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Jul 14, 2020 17:24
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Lawman 0 posted:Had Alexander lived would have he filled out the rest of his to do list of conquests easily or would he have gotten bogged down and given up? Well he was planning a campaign to subdue Arabia (more than planning, i think they were actually outfitting the army and stockpiling supplies) when he died, and that seems reasonably likely of success given its proximity to the rest of his empire. Conquering Magna Graecia doesn't seem too wildly implausible... hard to see it going any farther than that though, and I'm sure his conquests would shatter after his death p much no matter what
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Jul 14, 2020 20:05
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It’s just mind boggling to imagine 80,000 years of generations of humans living in Australia and all of those different and interesting lives and cultures and stories
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Jul 14, 2020 21:59
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euphronius posted:It’s just mind boggling to imagine 80,000 years of generations of humans living in Australia and all of those different and interesting lives and cultures and stories Terra nulius burn it down Mining company blew up a 40 000 year old site recently and just got to do it. White people bad
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Jul 15, 2020 00:56
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Angry Salami posted:There was trade across the Torres Strait with New Guinea, and some evidence of limited contact between Arnhem Land and Sulawesi. Of course, as you noted, even if northern Australians had knowledge of some parts of the rest of the world, there's no reason to believe that knowledge would have filtered to the rest of Australia. https://press-files.anu.edu.au/downloads/press/p241301/html/ch01.xhtml?referer=294&page=3 There is alot of interesting history regarding the cultural exchange between the Makassans from what is now Indonsia, and northern Australian Aboriginals (the Yolngu). It really seems to me that the various trading cultures in 18th century SE Asia were really growing and hooking into the Indian and East Asian trade networks, and that drove adventurers to expand their operations south into northern australia. It seems mostly peaceful and equitable, especially in contrast to Yolngu experience with white British settlers. But now that trade route has been completely severed by the white-dominated Australian government. This sort of makes me think of Mexicans in California/Arizona/Texas, people who used to work in agriculture across a geographic divide were suddenly restricted from economic activity (and forced into an undeground market that is easier for capital-holders to exploit) by white settlers with even less history to the land.
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Jul 15, 2020 02:40
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Heck it wasn't just recent México, the Spanish severed or disrupted a lot of the old trade networks linking the southern Pacific Coast of what is now California and the Baja Peninsula, the US Southwest, most of Chihuahua and Sonora, the Western Plains, the Southern Great Basin, the Tres Rios area of modern Southern Texas and Mesoamerica. Though the Mesoamerican contacts had started to wane once Paquimé (in modern Chihuahua about 96km from the border) stopped being a thing. And the contacts between the US Southwest and areas west and north had waxed and waned many times, The biggest disruption was to the robust Plains-Pueblo Trade which involved the Plains Apache and some related peoples and the Pueblo villages along the Rio Grande and it's tributaries. Spanish wrecked that right up and large scale raiding and warfare by the Apache kick up pretty quick after. The trade was in subsistence goods that both parties needed from the other and when the Spanish disrupted that it hurt Apache abilities to get maize and crop foods easily and quickly and Pueblo abilities to get bison and other large game. What is really notable is that by CE 850, possibly as much as 400-1000 years earlier than that even, people living in the Phoenix and Tucson Basins had regular contact with West México and were probably somewhat aware of Teotihuacan, and certainly the Post-Classic states such as Tula. There is even a known Hohokam ceramic vessel from the Phoenix Basin that dates to around CE 1030-1080 that was found in a site at the northern fringe of Mesoamerica. A large jar at that, really difficult to trade that far away and quite a find. Of course the border crossed their descendants and now you have O'odham families who have been traveling the land between Phoenix and Jalisco for as much as 3000 years that are separated by a modern border.
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Jul 15, 2020 09:28
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E, wrong thread
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Jul 15, 2020 11:11
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Miss Broccoli posted:You wouldn't expect someone in pre-medieval Poland to know about England, that's the scale of distance we are talking here. I think you're underestimating ancient European trade networks. I can't speak to Poland but regular trade across the breadth of Europe is at least as old as the mycenaean age. Heck, I understand pre colonial New Zealand had trade networks from the top of the north island to the bottom of the south, a distance further than Poland to England. How navigable was the Vistula?
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Jul 15, 2020 11:50
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Weka posted:I think you're underestimating ancient European trade networks. I can't speak to Poland but regular trade across the breadth of Europe is at least as old as the mycenaean age. Heck, I understand pre colonial New Zealand had trade networks from the top of the north island to the bottom of the south, a distance further than Poland to England. How navigable was the Vistula?
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Jul 15, 2020 12:09
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I looked up the distance and the scale of traveling from Krakow to London is about the same as traveling from Gila Butte just south of modern Phoenix to Alta Vista in Zacatecas. I use that example because, as mentioned, a vessel from the former, in near perfect condition, was found near the latter. And the Hohokam who lived around Gila Butte do not seem to have had boats or navigable waterways, and certainly not draft animals. There are also lots of examples of copper bells and mirrors from even further south in Mesoamerica that are fairly common up north. Even if it was down the line trade there is no reason information would not also travel with goods, so that people at one end of the network would have at least a vague idea of the people at the other end.
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Jul 15, 2020 14:05
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Pretty sure anyone who worked metal in ancient poland was familiar at least in passing that the tin they used came from tin island.
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Jul 15, 2020 15:06
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who here needs to practice their classical latin? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxfDIV1f0R4
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Jul 15, 2020 16:38
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This is clearly the most important discovery in the history of Egyptology https://twitter.com/MrGordian/status/1282844583777509377
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Jul 15, 2020 19:30
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e: wrong thread
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Jul 15, 2020 20:14
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Fuschia tude posted:This is clearly the most important discovery in the history of Egyptology The mummy sounds upset, really shouldn't have disturbed his eternal rest.
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Jul 15, 2020 21:26
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quote:When Gao Huan died, his son Gao Cheng ... made a pretense of burying his father elsewhere and then secretly carved a grotto on the side of a cave in Gushan, placed the coffin inside, and saeled it, upon which the son had all the workers executed. Following the fall of Northern Qi, the son of one of those workers removed the stone that sealed the burial, took gold from inside the tomb, and fled.
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Jul 16, 2020 00:30
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I have a couple small funerary sculptures pilfered from a chinese tomb. No idea where or when though.
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Jul 16, 2020 06:47
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Can someone think of a better name for a rome fanboi than "aveaboo"?
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Jul 18, 2020 20:19
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This is medieval history (with some mentions of ancient Rome and Athens), but I don't see any thread closer to the subject than this one, so I thought I'd share some controversy about a recent New Yorker article. How Pandemics Wreck Havoc and Open Minds: "The plague marked the end of the Middle Ages and the start of a great cultural renewal. Could the coronavirus, for all its destruction, offer a similar opportunity for radical change?" https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2020/07/20/how-pandemics-wreak-havoc-and-open-minds Personally, I don't think it's a very good article. It's a meandering mess that really reaches in places. But what raised the hackles of some medievalists is this passage: quote:Pomata told me, “What happens after the Black Death, it’s like a wind—fresh air coming in, the fresh air of common sense.” The intellectual overthrow of the scholastic-medicine establishment in the Middle Ages was caused by doctors who set aside the classical texts and gradually turned to empirical evidence. It was a revival of medical science, which had been dismissed after the fall of ancient Rome, a thousand years earlier. “After the Black Death, nothing was the same,” Pomata said. “What I expect now is something as dramatic is going to happen, not so much in medicine but in economy and culture. Because of danger, there’s this wonderful human response, which is to think in a new way." This letter in response gained some publicity, and summarizes the main faults with the article:  A New Yorker spokesperson responded to that letter last night with this statement: quote:Elly Truitt’s critique of our recent story “Crossroads” is off-base and, unfortunately, ignores the facts that were carefully laid out in the piece. We stand by the story.  Edit: whoops, don't know how to delete the attachment at the end Kevin DuBrow fucked around with this message at 05:15 on Jul 19, 2020 |
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Jul 19, 2020 05:08
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:Can someone think of a better name for a rome fanboi than "aveaboo"? Populusqueboo?
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Jul 19, 2020 05:55
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:Can someone think of a better name for a rome fanboi than "aveaboo"? A romanoi fanboi? We do have  , but that's more greek I guess. How about "Pleaboo"?I guess the obvious joke is "Otto".
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Jul 19, 2020 06:05
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Senatus Populusque Cor Meum, aka SPQBoo
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Jul 19, 2020 06:07
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Kevin DuBrow posted:Edit: whoops, don't know how to delete the attachment at the end Isn't direct contact with bodily fluids infectious as well? I'd imagine that corpses would tend to splatter on impact
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Jul 19, 2020 09:44
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VeniVidiViciboo, in the proper pronunciation
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Jul 19, 2020 10:11
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:Can someone think of a better name for a rome fanboi than "aveaboo"? I was leery of answering this before some replies came in, but now that some have I'm gonna go with "no".
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Jul 19, 2020 10:32
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Tunicate posted:Isn't direct contact with bodily fluids infectious as well? I'd imagine that corpses would tend to splatter on impact
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Jul 19, 2020 10:43
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Tunicate posted:Isn't direct contact with bodily fluids infectious as well? I'd imagine that corpses would tend to splatter on impact Some people are using this article written by a microbiologist to defend the New Yorker piece. He suggests that it would have been transmitted to the people who carried the thrown bodies. https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/8/9/01-0536_article Even if that’s true, the New Yorker article posits that the fleeing refugees were the cause of the spread throughout Italy, when maritime commerce, particularly grain shipments, would have been a much more important factor. https://osf.io/preprints/bodoarxiv/rqn8h/ edit: now that I’ve had the chance to read further into the second link I posted, I think it’s safe to say that it definitely wasn’t the flung bodies that caused the outbreak. Ironically, the war actually delayed the spread of plague into Caffa, and it’s likely that it was food shipments into the city once the siege was lifted that introduced it. It’s an excellent piece of scholarship and I’d definitely recommend reading it, it’s very cool that we’re still learning things that are flipping our old narratives on their heads. Anyway, here’s Pliny being Pliny. Book 28, chapter 23 of The Natural History. quote:Facts Connected With the Menstrual Discharge This is after reporting that a naked menstruating woman can scare away lightning, and that having sex with one will kill a man. Such power. Kevin DuBrow fucked around with this message at 12:00 on Jul 19, 2020 |
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Jul 19, 2020 11:23
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Kevin DuBrow posted:Corpses can pose a risk if they suffer enough force to cause aerosolization. I’m not an expert but it is possible that flung bodies caused the outbreak in Caffa. https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/8/9/01-0536_article Show me the lie?
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Jul 19, 2020 11:41
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Here's an article written by a historian and author I really like, talking about the perception of the Renaissance as a golden age (and the medieval era as a dark one). It was written before that NYer article, somehow. I haven't actually finished it because it's long as poo poo and I only noticed it yesterday, but the intro seems interesting.
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Jul 19, 2020 12:05
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I was thinking last night of how absurd it must have seemed to people from the past, if they could see it, that in the modern US we're often measuring the pandemic in terms of what wars it's killed more people than. "The plague killed more than a war? No poo poo. Read a scroll, idiot." Rona's also put a lot of historical events in grim context for me, for that matter. I've never actually seen almost 150,000 countrymen die over four months. It helps imagine what living through trauma in the past might have felt like where before everything over like, a hundred people dead was basically just "increasingly large unfathomable number." Coulda done with leaving the feeling to the imagination though.
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Jul 19, 2020 14:19
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:Rona's also put a lot of historical events in grim context for me, for that matter. I've never actually seen almost 150,000 countrymen die over four months. Certainly you have, cancer and heart disease each kill more than that every four months.
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Jul 19, 2020 17:51
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