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Julio Cruz posted:lol no it's really not Why do you object to chlorinated chicken, why are you anti food?
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Jul 20, 2020 16:09
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like don't get me wrong I hate the current government as much as anyone but the amount of  currently going on about "well maybe they'll deliberately contaminate the vaccine" is incrediblethrashingteeth posted:So how are they made? Do they just pop out of the ground with no external factors effecting the duration of their production? suggesting that scientists are going to somehow gently caress up the biggest breakthrough of their entire careers because the government asked them to is ridiculous
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Jul 20, 2020 16:11
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Julio Cruz posted:except you realise it's not the government that's doing the testing, right? it's not really up to them if the vaccine gets released or not genuine question then: what are the actual safeguards you're implying here?
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Jul 20, 2020 16:13
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I think that it is entirely reasonable that the government will buy any old shite put out by whatever cowboy pharma company they can find and then roll it out regardless of whether it's safe. And no I don't trust pharmaceutical companies not to loving kill people with hell drugs if it makes them money, which being the first one to put out a vaccine for a disease the entire planet is terrified of, would do.
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Jul 20, 2020 16:14
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Julio Cruz posted:like don't get me wrong I hate the current government as much as anyone but the amount of nobody thinks that; they're saying that immense pressure is being/will be brought to bear both by pharma companies who want to be the first to market to make out like bandits and from government officials who can lean heavily on regulatory authorities
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Jul 20, 2020 16:16
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we aren't so poo poo a country that our medical research and clinical practice bodies are directly controlled by a member of the tories we still have one of the most robust medical standard bodies in the world, so it's not a difficult assumption that the medical staff on it won't sacrifice their oaths to get us off the dole as much as the tories will try, mind.
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Jul 20, 2020 16:17
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Rustybear posted:genuine question then: what are the actual safeguards you're implying here? hmm there are some vaccine "trials" being reported on in the news here, I wonder if they're making sure the virus is safe and effective, no that can't be it
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Jul 20, 2020 16:18
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I don't think they would do it deliberately, and I don;'t think the scientists would do it at all. But there's a world of problems that can be introduced when you go from 'works fine in a lab' to 'give it to everyone', especially when you try to do it as quickly as possible. It's difficult to know exactly what they are, but the biggest likelihoods are: - insufficient testing to prove it actually works at scale. You make and distribute something with substandard functionality, and people think they're immune, go about their normal business, and you end up with yet another spike in infections. - insufficient testing to prove it's actually safe for everyone. You make and distribute something, and you haven't tested it on some subset of the population, it has an unexpected interaction with some pre-existing condition or medication, and whilst it works for most people, you harm a subset of people more than you otherwise would have. - problems in manufacture or distribution. You manufacture something new, at scale, in a rush, and at some point in the process you accidentally either introduce a harmful contaminant, or you introudce a contaminant that reduces the efficacy of the vaccine, resulting in case 1 or 2 above. And that's based on the idea that something publicly developed and non-patented is the one being produced, if it's a patented product you also end up spending billions more than you needed to on top of everything else. It's absolutely possible none of this happens. If some of it does, it would be problematic, and people being worried about it isn't irrational.
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Jul 20, 2020 16:18
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Ratjaculation posted:we aren't so poo poo a country that our medical research and clinical practice bodies are directly controlled by a member of the tories I have zero confidence that the government won't just mandate it be issued without going to any sort of review body. Who would stop them? Will independent SAGE write an article in the guardian about it?
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Jul 20, 2020 16:19
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Julio Cruz posted:lol no it's really not nobody itt is anti-vaxx i do doubt whether the 2020 UK government is capable of competently administering a vaccine though and atm i'd basically wanna see some real countries give it a go first. and speaking only for myself, dunno if anyone else is feeling this way, i've lost a LOT of respect for our scientific institutions over this too. I know from my work that we do top quality science in the country but it looks to me like the institutional rot exists across all of british established society not just parliament. sage and the nhs and phe all hosed up massively on pretty much every measure. so in the particular situation that the UK itself quickly creates a vaccine and tries to administer it i'd be very cautious about it because i don't trust the institutional leadership of any group in charge of making medical decisions in this country.
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Jul 20, 2020 16:20
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Rustybear posted:nobody thinks that; they're saying that immense pressure is being/will be brought to bear both by pharma companies who want to be the first to market to make out like bandits and from government officials who can lean heavily on regulatory authorities if it's so easy and profitable to put out a "vaccine" which doesn't actually work then why hasn't it been done yet? if it's as easy as putting out sugar water and sitting back and raking in the $$$ then you'd think one of these pharma companies would have done it by now rather than just spending months sitting around waiting
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Jul 20, 2020 16:20
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I heard they're going to let Boris Johnson personally piss in the big vat of UK coronavirus vaccine before they bottle it up for distribution.
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Jul 20, 2020 16:21
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Oh cool, so it's a joint SARS and syphilis vaccine?
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Jul 20, 2020 16:23
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Julio Cruz posted:hmm there are some vaccine "trials" being reported on in the news here, I wonder if they're making sure the virus is safe and effective, no that can't be it is all the trial data public information, to what extent are they peer-reviewed? i was kind of assuming you knew what you're talking about; you can fob me off again if not  .
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Jul 20, 2020 16:23
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Julio Cruz posted:if it's so easy and profitable to put out a "vaccine" which doesn't actually work then why hasn't it been done yet? if it's as easy as putting out sugar water and sitting back and raking in the $$$ then you'd think one of these pharma companies would have done it by now rather than just spending months sitting around waiting i don't know because it's not a topic i know much about; you seemed very definitive so i was asking you to explain what the safeguards are.
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Jul 20, 2020 16:25
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Rustybear posted:is all the trial data public information, to what extent are they peer-reviewed? so since you appear to believe you know what you're talking about, how likely do you think it is that some of the world's best vaccine researchers are going to deliberately put out a vaccine that's somewhere on the scale between "ineffective" and "actually harmful", and why do you think they apparently might?
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Jul 20, 2020 16:26
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lol this is so pointless youre just trying to do some 'gotcha' thing where you reply with more questions, nevermind.
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Jul 20, 2020 16:28
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OwlFancier posted:I have zero confidence that the government won't just mandate it be issued without going to any sort of review body. Who would stop them? Will independent SAGE write an article in the guardian about it? And since we're all about throwing hypotheticals out today in this thread, presumably Superman would stop them too.
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Jul 20, 2020 16:29
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essentially "why would smart people let bad thing happen?"
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Jul 20, 2020 16:29
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If people are actually interested in seeing how the process works and what happens in the UK you can just look it up yourself. https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/medicines-and-healthcare-products-regulatory-agency/about There is a lot of history to why medicines are regulated and controlled the way they are so it's a lot more than one person can write up in a pithy post while the thread is moving this fast.
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Jul 20, 2020 16:30
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Rustybear posted:lol this is so pointless youre just trying to do some 'gotcha' thing where you reply with more questions, nevermind. I mean you haven't actually given a single reason to distrust any potential vaccine beyond "the government" and "big pharma" so
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Jul 20, 2020 16:31
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Julio Cruz posted:I mean you haven't actually given a single reason to distrust any potential vaccine beyond "the government" and "big pharma" so
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Jul 20, 2020 16:38
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Julio Cruz posted:I mean you haven't actually given a single reason to distrust the virus beyond "the government" so you seem to be confusing me with another poster, all i did was ask what the safeguards are. if i'm honest, it seems like you don't really know what you're on about tbh and are chucking out a load of invective and bluster to obscure that.
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Jul 20, 2020 16:39
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Also hearing reports that one doctor involved with the vaccines has been whispering verses of the Quran to them, therefore making anyone who gets vaccinated Muslim. The pharma company he works for knows he's been doing this for years, but can’t strike him off because they are scared of being called racist.
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Jul 20, 2020 16:39
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Bobby Deluxe posted:Matt Hancock will be overseeing the logistics of its deployment. and the worst case scenario there is, what, they send it to the wrong hospital? which, you'll note, isn't actually a problem with the vaccine itself
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Jul 20, 2020 16:40
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Also it's worth making the point that the Oxford vaccine in particular is a variant of a MERS vaccine which has already had a good amount of testing before Covid showed up all of which raised no cause for concern.
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Jul 20, 2020 16:41
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Rustybear posted:you seem to be confusing me with another poster, all i did was ask what the safeguards are. are clinical trials not a safeguard? I'm curious what you think they are if not and yes, I expect a peer-reviewed study once, you know, they find a vaccine that's effective and safe oddly enough despite the apparently enormous pressure from the twin forces of government and big pharma no-one has yet tried to fake such a study a la Andrew Wakefield
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Jul 20, 2020 16:44
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I think the worst case scenario is that they give fifty billion pounds to a company registered at a bedsit in Telford and they dilute one packet of fishtank cleaner in ten thousand gallons of seawater and then inject it into everyone.
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Jul 20, 2020 16:45
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TheRat posted:Wait, what? I can't say I've been keeping up with the latest in celeb gossip, but I thought Depp was accused of handing out physical abuse, not being on the receiving end? Amber Heard is a terrible human being, and since I have heard multiple first-hand accounts of her behaviour I'm inclined to believe that allegations against Johnny Depp are all made up and she's entirely at fault.
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Jul 20, 2020 16:47
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Julio Cruz posted:are clinical trials not a safeguard? I'm curious what you think they are if not There's a difference between faking it and rushing it. poo poo can go wrong. Especially when rushed.
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Jul 20, 2020 16:50
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Yeah the reason the routine vaccines are considered a no-brainer, and therefore we consider anti-vaxxers no-brain-ers, is because they're extremely safe (as evidenced by using them on billions of people) and there's no non-conspiracy political reason for them to exist, other than public health. These things are not true for a potential Covid vaccine, making it less of a slam dunk obvious thing. Doesn't mean it's terrible and we shouldn't take it, but it's not "anti-vax" to discuss it.
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Jul 20, 2020 16:51
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Julio Cruz posted:are clinical trials not a safeguard? I'm curious what you think they are if not i was literally asking you! stop replying with questions, if i knew i wouldn't have asked
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Jul 20, 2020 16:52
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I'm a little confused about why some people in this thread are talking about the government 'pushing out untested vaccines" when the Oxford vaccine has just finished Phase II safety trials with 10,000 people and is about to go Phase III efficacy/performance trials with thousands of people in five countries around the world?
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Jul 20, 2020 16:54
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TheRat posted:There's a difference between faking it and rushing it. poo poo can go wrong. Especially when rushed. and what exactly suggests to you that it's currently being rushed? because "well maybe" isn't exactly a good reason the fact that we're nearly 6 months from the first UK case and only now are we even starting trials really doesn't imply there's very much rushing going on
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Jul 20, 2020 16:54
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blunt posted:I'm a little confused about why some people in this thread are talking about the government 'pushing out untested vaccines" when the Oxford vaccine has just finished Phase II safety trials with 10,000 people and is about to go Phase III efficacy/performance trials with thousands of people in five countries around the world? hey whoa look man im too cool to read beyond the headlines on the embedded tweets
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Jul 20, 2020 16:56
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blunt posted:I'm a little confused about why some people in this thread are talking about the government 'pushing out untested vaccines" when the Oxford vaccine has just finished Phase II safety trials with 10,000 people and is about to go Phase III efficacy/performance trials with thousands of people in five countries around the world? because big pharma and Matt Hancock bad, obviously
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Jul 20, 2020 16:57
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Ratjaculation posted:hey whoa look man im too cool to read beyond the headlines on the embedded tweets Pretty rude tbh.
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Jul 20, 2020 16:57
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blunt posted:I'm a little confused about why some people in this thread are talking about the government 'pushing out untested vaccines" when the Oxford vaccine has just finished Phase II safety trials with 10,000 people and is about to go Phase III efficacy/performance trials with thousands of people in five countries around the world? cause i don't know what a phase iii trial is and i was trying to prompt someone to do a explainer but instead we just got a lot of sneering lol
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Jul 20, 2020 16:58
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Julio Cruz posted:lol no it's really not Vaccines in general are a good thing. Hurriedly-produced vaccines turned out by the lowest bidder in response to an epidemic...not so much.
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Jul 20, 2020 16:59
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namesake posted:That's not really demonstrating anything, Leavers were more socially regressive than average about a whole lot of things. My argument was that having minority rights campaigns existing prior to and independently of EU requirements mean that the EU is not seen as a plot by the gays in the same way is is often framed in eastern Europe and Russia. There's a significant difference between Eastern EU and Russia there. I mean there might not seem that much, but it's a difference between "registered partnership and potentially adoption but no marriage" and "state-sponsored violence on everyone suspected of being homosexual". I know plenty of people who are openly gay and/or trans in eastern europe and pretty much nobody really cares either way. At worst you get the occasional old religious person muttering something about sin, or homophobic jokes in a "between the lads" environment - which are more common than in the UK to be fair. In particular I've not heard anything about EU pushing homosexuality in the Czech Republic, plenty of "they want us to import black (read coloured) people and make our nations as non-homogenous as theirs" from various racists, but nothing about homosexuality or even trans rights.
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Jul 20, 2020 16:59
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