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Tesla has too much of a stronghold on EVs in NA right now. Jaguar's and Audi's weak EV sales likely put VW off from initially selling in NA until demand gets better. I'm banking on GM making non-Tesla EVs cool here.
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Jul 23, 2020 19:15
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I think the Ford Mach E and the Nissan Ariya might do quite well in the U.S. and pave the way for more EV competition. They seem to be priced right to move with decent range and performance numbers. Jag and Audi were sort of hamstrung by pricing.
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Jul 23, 2020 19:21
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Yuns posted:Jag and Audi were sort of hamstrung by pricing. I don't agree, the gas-equivalent models are priced fairly close. 
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Jul 23, 2020 19:27
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EV buyers and Q8 buyers are not the same.Nfcknblvbl posted:Tesla has too much of a stronghold on EVs in NA right now. Jaguar's and Audi's weak EV sales likely put VW off from initially selling in NA until demand gets better. I'm banking on GM making non-Tesla EVs cool here. has nothin to do with Tesla and a lot more to do with the US market being not good for hatchbacks. VW has an EV that ought to sell well in NA. Why bring the thing that won't sell first?
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Jul 23, 2020 19:29
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:EV buyers and Q8 buyers are not the same. KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:has nothin to do with Tesla and a lot more to do with the US market being not good for hatchbacks. VW has an EV that ought to sell well in NA. Why bring the thing that won't sell first? The Bolt's a hatchback, and it's selling well enough that GM's updating it. Edit: Yuns posted:I agree that they are close to the Q7 series but I mean vis a vis the 3 and Y (not so much the X which is closer in price) Yeah, I see now that it's not fair to compare the Q8 with the E-Tron, my bad. Nfcknblvbl fucked around with this message at 19:35 on Jul 23, 2020 |
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Jul 23, 2020 19:33
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Nfcknblvbl posted:I don't agree, the gas-equivalent models are priced fairly close.
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Jul 23, 2020 19:33
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I really hope the Mach E does well. I rely on public charging (mostly L1 at work) so I'll be a little sad about less frequent access to charging. But, by the time a lot of these hit mainstream, I'll have moved somewhere with an outlet. If the Ariya sells anywhere as good as the Rogue, it'll be a hit. The hardest hurdle will be financial institutions not baking in things like gas and routine maintenance costs into financing decisions.
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Jul 23, 2020 19:36
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Nfcknblvbl posted:The Bolt's a hatchback, and it's selling well enough that GM's updating it. you cannot seriously believe that in Q2 it was outsold by such luminaries as: Chrysler 300 Mitsubishi Outlander Acura ILX Volkswagen Beetle (!) Chevrolet Spark Mercedes A Class Dodge Journey
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Jul 23, 2020 20:51
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audi priced the e-tron as an Audi, but electric! while somehow ignoring that people weren't cross-shopping e-tron against like X5s and poo poo
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Jul 23, 2020 20:51
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Nitrousoxide posted:Oh the model 3 is by no means perfect. A hatchback style EV with good range good fast charging options like Tesla tends to offer would be wonderful. its expensive especially in the US but the Polestar 2 is the closest you'll find to a hatchback model 3. And it can be optioned with a trailer hitch.
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Jul 23, 2020 20:58
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:you cannot seriously believe that Why didn't you at least provide your opinion on why Chevy's keeping the Bolt, and updating it?
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Jul 23, 2020 21:01
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We all know GM product planners are loving Steve Jobs reincarnated, so there's no way they could be doing something dumb. I think keeping the Bolt is a stupid decision, but it probably boils down to this: 1) The update is basically cosmetic and tech only. It will probably increase sales because refreshes increase sales and are relatively inexpensive to execute. 2) They need to retool the line for Bolt EUV anyway, so they might as well update the base Bolt with stuff that will go in the EUV. 3) It would look really bad for GM's push towards electrification if they killed their one honest-to-God on sale EV model right now. The main reason is the last reason. The Bolt is a dismal failure and GM knows it. In GM tradition, they've pushed out a bad product that the market doesn't want, dicked around on changes that would help it be viable (how did they gently caress up the seats so bad??), and then finally executed some of those changes. Now we are rapidly approaching the final stage of GM product planning, which is kill off the product right when it gets good. edit: forgot one! selling Bolts means that GM has to buy fewer offsets.
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Jul 23, 2020 21:07
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I highly doubt the Bolt's going to die, especially since it shares the same platform as the Bolt EUV. A lot of the Bolt's interior sucks, not just the seats, and that's a product of making a car which has a 259 mile range but still being affordable. Bolt owners are largely very satisfied with their cars, their rep's going to help GM in the long run, and I think that's why GM's updating this outsold car as you said.
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Jul 23, 2020 21:14
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I really think all it needs is a new interior and maybe faster, standard DCFC. We love ours.
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Jul 23, 2020 21:18
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People who like them really like them, that's great! There are also roughly 40,000 of those people in the US, which is why VW is not bringing the ID.3. The Bolt sales volumes are the kind of thing that you take to the Head of Product when you're planning a new launch, and then he laughs at you for like five minutes and then fires you. The smart thing to do with the Bolt is to slap a Chevy Equinox shell over it (GM is vaguely approaching this with the EUV but is loving it up as usual), which is what VW has with ID.4.
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Jul 23, 2020 21:21
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Nfcknblvbl posted:I highly doubt the Bolt's going to die, especially since it shares the same platform as the Bolt EUV. A lot of the Bolt's interior sucks, not just the seats, and that's a product of making a car which has a 259 mile range but still being affordable. GM got stung hard by the marketing talk from Tesla that the Model 3 would be a 35-39 thousand dollar sedan for the everyman. So they build a vehicle that would be equal in range the competition and under that price. And they beat it to market by half a year. They didn't realize that Tesla was not serious about the price, and that almost every Model 3 would be sold at 1.5x that. Also they should have fixed the seats after the first year.
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Jul 23, 2020 23:56
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:In GM tradition, they've pushed out a bad product that the market doesn't want, dicked around on changes that would help it be viable (how did they gently caress up the seats so bad??), and then finally executed some of those changes. Now we are rapidly approaching the final stage of GM product planning, which is kill off the product right when it gets good. This triggers my Fiero GT depression syndrome.
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Jul 24, 2020 01:23
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They got Ken Block in that 1400 hp 7 motor nothing to do with the production Mach E Mach E https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-7jBLqSlzg
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Jul 24, 2020 02:43
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:EV buyers and Q8 buyers are not the same. I went to drive a Q8 and left with an etron a few weeks later. I think there is more crossover than you'd imagine especially because of how similar they are in size.
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Jul 24, 2020 03:27
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What is really loving Audi is the dealers do not want to sell e-trons. The first two dealers really refused to negotiate at all and pulled every slimy dealer trick under the sun to get me to not buy an e-tron while offering a compelling deal on a Q8. The third dealer I wore down by email and then when they dropped it off they didn't tell me anything about the car and forgot to sign the paperwork that allows me to get a state tax credit. I wound up having to call Audi roadside to figure out how to get the charging handle to unlock the first day I had the car because it's not in the manual. Audi roadside had no idea so the lady at roadside did a three-way call while we called different dealer service departments until we found someone who knew how.
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Jul 24, 2020 03:39
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That doesn't surprise me. I bet the margin on an etron sucks compared to an ice full size luxury SUV.
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Jul 24, 2020 07:24
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The fact that Audi was clearing out 2019 e-trons last month by leasing new unsold models with an MSRP of $75,795 for a capitalized cost of $55,121 indicates to me that they didn't sell well. Not sure if it was dealer neglect or low demand as the cause.
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Jul 24, 2020 11:51
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Yuns posted:The fact that Audi was clearing out 2019 e-trons last month by leasing new unsold models with an MSRP of $75,795 for a capitalized cost of $55,121 indicates to me that they didn't sell well. Not sure if it was dealer neglect or low demand as the cause. Might be very few Americans that even know it exists.
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Jul 24, 2020 11:55
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Wouldnt be the first time dealer stupidity hits sales of an interesting car.
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Jul 24, 2020 12:51
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They really need to play it up more as Tony Stark's car, considering how blatant that placement was in Avengers Endgame.
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Jul 24, 2020 15:16
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Hard to diss the e-tron beyond it being a fairly inefficient EV. The sportback e-tron is supposed to sell like hotcakes here in  Also I would like to apologize for my previous post in this thread that earned me a well deserved 7 day probation. It sounded funnier in my head than it did after I hit the post button 
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Jul 24, 2020 15:24
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CAT INTERCEPTOR posted:Wouldnt be the first time dealer stupidity hits sales of an interesting car. Or the last since it sounds like ford and Toyota dealers aren't doing the RAV4 prime or Mach e any favors
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Jul 24, 2020 17:17
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gwrtheyrn posted:Or the last since it sounds like ford and Toyota dealers aren't doing the RAV4 prime or Mach e any favors In the case of those, I can kind of see it from the salesmen's point of view. You've got a customer on the hook that wants to spend some money, but you haven't got any of what they want on the lot, and you can't give them an accurate estimate of when they'll get any... Losing... Sale... But! You can Drive Away Today! in whatever we've got in stock, special price, just for you! (and Ol' Gil gets to eat this week!). Audi has e-trons on the lot.
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Jul 24, 2020 17:28
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how are Ford dealers supposed to be selling a car that doesn't exist yet? The RAV4' is supply constrained and very expensive for not a whole lot of additional value over the regular Hybrid.
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Jul 24, 2020 18:54
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Finger Prince posted:In the case of those, I can kind of see it from the salesmen's point of view. You've got a customer on the hook that wants to spend some money, but you haven't got any of what they want on the lot, and you can't give them an accurate estimate of when they'll get any... Losing... Sale... But! You can Drive Away Today! in whatever we've got in stock, special price, just for you! (and Ol' Gil gets to eat this week!). Audi has e-trons on the lot. Sounds more like a toxic corporate culture of rewarding top performance and punishing everything else which leads to a bad experience for everyone but the ones highest up in the hierarchy.
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Jul 24, 2020 19:01
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Finger Prince posted:In the case of those, I can kind of see it from the salesmen's point of view. You've got a customer on the hook that wants to spend some money, but you haven't got any of what they want on the lot, and you can't give them an accurate estimate of when they'll get any... Losing... Sale... But! You can Drive Away Today! in whatever we've got in stock, special price, just for you! (and Ol' Gil gets to eat this week!). Audi has e-trons on the lot. The joke is that it's the rav4 and mach-e getting a special price of 15k over msrp not that they're offering deals for other things KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:how are Ford dealers supposed to be selling a car that doesn't exist yet? https://insideevs.com/news/430459/ford-mustang-mach-e-dealer-markup-15000/#:~:text=Yes%2C%20that's%20%2415%2C000%20on%20top,brand%20new%20Mustang%20Mach%2DE.&text=According%20to%20a%20post%20on,who%20have%20already%20placed%20orders. https://www.motor1.com/news/433008/...the%20crossover's%20MSRP.
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Jul 24, 2020 19:46
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The e-tron has been killing it in the EU, at least as far as BEV SUVs go (an admittedly limited market)
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Jul 24, 2020 20:00
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gwrtheyrn posted:The joke is that it's the rav4 and mach-e getting a special price of 15k over msrp not that they're offering deals for other things normal poo poo with new constrained cars edit: i'm not saying that's GOOD mind you but right now fuckin Kia Tellurides are getting marked up by dealers so this is by no means a new and exciting EV specific phenomenon, it's just everyday Dealers Are poo poo. There's a bunch of Dealers Don't Want To Sell EVs stuff, but your example isn't that. KYOON GRIFFEY JR fucked around with this message at 20:17 on Jul 24, 2020 |
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Jul 24, 2020 20:14
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Marking up tellurides while giving 0% 84 month deals on stinger GTs smdh
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Jul 24, 2020 21:22
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:normal poo poo with new constrained cars Fair, though it's going to happen to EVs more since they're perpetually supply constrained since nobody can seem to get enough batteries
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Jul 24, 2020 21:26
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priznat posted:Marking up tellurides while giving 0% 84 month deals on stinger GTs smdh shockingly things that people want to buy command a higher price
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Jul 24, 2020 22:20
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priznat posted:Marking up tellurides while giving 0% 84 month deals on stinger GTs smdh Fuuuuck. But even over 84 months, it's still $700/mo. This is why I buy used.
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Jul 24, 2020 22:21
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Finger Prince posted:In the case of those, I can kind of see it from the salesmen's point of view. You've got a customer on the hook that wants to spend some money, but you haven't got any of what they want on the lot, and you can't give them an accurate estimate of when they'll get any... Losing... Sale... But! You can Drive Away Today! in whatever we've got in stock, special price, just for you! (and Ol' Gil gets to eat this week!). Audi has e-trons on the lot. A good salesman would do a ring around to find one. However it's the dealership model thats the problem here. You aren't Audi's prospective customer. The dealer is the one who buys the cars from Audi, they are the ones on the hook for their stock levels and thence there is a considerable amount of pressure to sell what the dealership has on the lot. You then end up with issues about markups, dealers not wanting to sell certain models etc etc. A non traditional sales model where you are buying from the car maker itself means you avoid those issues and also the car makers themselves see the orders and sees not what the dealerships want.... but what you want. I kind of suspect one of the reasons why the cheapest Model 3 never existed is Tesla saw the pre orders for everything else and saw there wasnt any real demand for it. Under a dealership system that may well have been different but that in the end is trying to guess an alternate timeline. For what it's worth it does look like the dealer model of car sales is hurting EV takeup
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Jul 24, 2020 22:21
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gwrtheyrn posted:Fair, though it's going to happen to EVs more since they're perpetually supply constrained since nobody can seem to get enough batteries Battery supply is an interesting example of market dynamics. From the early Model S days Tesla we’re saying that the key is battery supply. If you weren’t serious about battery supply then you weren’t serious about EVs. It was always a chicken and the egg problem. Price was high because the market was too small; the market was too small because battery prices made EVs uneconomical. Tesla broke the egg by building their own factories and entering into huge agreements with battery makers like Panasonic. Other OEMs felt this was unnecessary. The market would solve the problem. Once there was demand for EVs there would be battery companies ready to supply the batteries. I think this will eventually occur, but the car companies and the chemical companies are equally risk averse and it’s taking a long time. In the meantime they’ve surrendered a huge lead to Tesla as first mover. I’m sure all that is obvious and we’ll known on this forum but I still find it fascinating and frustrating to watch. Basically because I want a cheap compact EV and I’m not prepared to fork out the premium For the current offerings and I’m too cheap to buy a Tesla.
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Jul 24, 2020 22:23
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My assessment is that Tesla's third party agreements were very much more important than their own capacity building.
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Jul 24, 2020 22:25
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