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Utawarerumono definitely is a VN with gameplay segments thrown in. The only reason why the battles even can approach the text is because if you want to do everything the game has to offer you are constantly repeating fights that drive up the length.
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Jul 27, 2020 04:41
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Jul 27, 2020 06:37
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I know it's just a shitpost but I feel like TWD and Disco Elysium are swapped in this image. Text is the primary way you engage with the world in that game. The other 3/4ths of the screen barely even matters.
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Jul 27, 2020 06:41
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Stefan Prodan posted:wait how is ZTD not a visual novel lol Irony Be My Shield posted:I think vndb's "consistently uses the novel narrative for telling its story" is a reasonable requirement. Basically if it's a VN you'll be reading descriptions of actions, scenery and/or events and imagining them, rather than just reading dialogue with everything else presented visually. I actually agree with this, I loved 999 and VLR but ZTD was an escape room game with dialogue, not a novel with escape rooms.
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Jul 27, 2020 06:44
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Stefan Prodan posted:wait how is ZTD not a visual novel lol Because the only reading is subtitles. If ZTD is a Visual Novel then so is Judge Judy with closed captioning.
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Jul 27, 2020 13:44
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The Black Stones posted:Utawarerumono definitely is a VN with gameplay segments thrown in. The only reason why the battles even can approach the text is because if you want to do everything the game has to offer you are constantly repeating fights that drive up the length. IIRC the orginal didn't even let you redo battles? It's been a long time since I've played it, but I feel like the time between battles wasn't even that long in the original, but that is subjective.
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Jul 27, 2020 13:46
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This is the version of the alignment chart I saw on reddit:
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Jul 27, 2020 13:55
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I remember the first Utawarerumono as being mostly story with occasional battles, but similarly it has been a long time and I'm probably unconsciously judging it in comparison to Galaxy Angel. I'm pretty happy to consider them both "VNs with gameplay", though. If you can lift an hours-long chunk out of a game that looks like a VN and quacks like a VN then I think it can be called a VN. Lost Odyssey notwithstanding.
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Jul 27, 2020 13:57
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MegaZeroX posted:IIRC the orginal didn't even let you redo battles? It's been a long time since I've played it, but I feel like the time between battles wasn't even that long in the original, but that is subjective. I’ve only played Prelude to the fallen, and not the very original so I can’t say anything in regards to that. In prelude you can redo battles, and there definitely could be some time between battles, but it definitely doesn’t hit the length you could go between that the Mask series did, where there was gigantic amounts of story between battles.
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Jul 27, 2020 14:17
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Gaius Marius posted:Even their highly acclaimed games had absolute trash stories, it's crazy how much further ahead Japanese games are in terms of narrative quality. Japan is unchallenged when it comes to stories about high schoolers in love or getting murdered.
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Jul 27, 2020 14:52
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MegaZeroX posted:Because the only reading is subtitles. If ZTD is a Visual Novel then so is Judge Judy with closed captioning. Is it really lol drat I guess it was That game was so bad I forgot nearly everything about it I guess
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Jul 27, 2020 17:19
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visual novels are a sandwich
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Jul 27, 2020 17:26
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mario is a vn because you play the visual of mario
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Jul 27, 2020 18:18
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all real-time games are visual flipbooks
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Jul 27, 2020 18:22
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Raiad posted:mario is a vn because you play the visual of mario mario is an rpg because you control a character who isn't you
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Jul 27, 2020 18:30
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umineko isn't a VN because classical mysteries are actually games, meaning it has gameplay elements
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Jul 27, 2020 18:36
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It's funny how "having dialogue options" and "not having dialogue options" are both visual novel esque traits.
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Jul 28, 2020 05:29
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Synergia just came out on Steam. I don't have the attention span to have actually finished it yet, but it looks pretty neat. It's a lesbian cyberpunk game with a non-standard aesthetic (still animeish but not the usual) and much more use of fullscreen art instead of just standup sprites, so there's more of a graphic novel feel.
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Jul 28, 2020 14:01
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i dunno about DA, but i definitely wish mass effect was a straight up VN every time i play because all that walking, elevators and combat just get in the way of the storytelling e: this post isn't meant to be a "games should be more like books or films" post but more of a "a half-decent story probably shouldn't be interrupted regularly by crappy gameplay unless that gameplay somehow advances the story by itself, but bioware can't really pull that off apparently" basically, it's the same issue i have with tomb raider. i installed that game to explore walls and climb areas, and then over 50% of the game is a really shoddy shooter. why? Truga fucked around with this message at 14:44 on Jul 28, 2020 |
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Jul 28, 2020 14:16
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I think that comes down to business. With gameplay and graphics you can offer iterative improvements over your previous title based on the same engine, so as long as you put the time and money into those you should get at least some return on your sequel. Wheras if your game is heavily based on its story there's no way to guarantee from the suits' perspective that the next game's story will be as good or better than the previous one - heck, you could argue that writing a good sequel is harder, and the staff required to craft one are less replaceable in an industry with an extremely high turnover. Telltale's attempt to use the usual game industry strategy of pumping out a bunch of games based on a supposed formula that worked once demonstrates the folly of this approach IMO.
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Jul 28, 2020 22:07
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Regarding Mass Effect, how many VNs let you design your character meticulously, and change your whole personality at will? My Shepard/Ryder was me, or at least, someone I could feel a strong bond with, and without that, I feel like the series would have very little appeal to me. Meanwhile, the ability to distance from the protagonist, to tell yourself 'look, it's just a guy's story, he's not you, hel'll do what the writers decided, just sit back and relax' seems essential for enjoying VNs.
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Jul 29, 2020 07:54
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I'm pretty sure it's historically been the opposite and people self-inserting as the protagonist is the main reason why there's traditionally been so many faceless and harmless everymen relatable to a young Japanese guy in that role in VNs. Especially if adult content is involved.
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Jul 29, 2020 08:03
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On the topic of "games being VNs that aren't generally considered VNs" I'd posit FF14. At the very least, I'd say it has a higher "story : action" ratio than Mass Effect.Gaius Marius posted:Even their highly acclaimed games had absolute trash stories, it's crazy how much further ahead Japanese games are in terms of narrative quality. Eh, there aren't really that many good VNs even in Japan, though the best ones are pretty great. I think I could count on two hands the number that are decent and the sort of thing I might feel comfortable recommending to someone. Ryuukishi07 ones are the only ones that I would argue have actual merit as stories that aren't just pulp entertainment, though some other VNs fall under the category of "well constructed and very entertaining" (like Steins;Gate or Raging Loop).
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Jul 29, 2020 09:17
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Kanfy posted:I'm pretty sure it's historically been the opposite and people self-inserting as the protagonist is the main reason why there's traditionally been so many faceless and harmless everymen relatable to a young Japanese guy in that role in VNs. Especially if adult content is involved. it's both really - generic 'self-insert' characters (which you can really only self insert into if you're a particular sort of person) are very common but as I mentioned earlier many people do feel that if you can customise the protagonist to suit your tastes, it's not a VN anymore. Some of this is very similar to the WRPG/JRPG split. WRPGs tend to let you build a protagonist that you can have some stake of ownership in, JRPGs you generally play what you're given. There are visual novel style games that let you design your own protagonist. They're almost always Western-written. Some of them it's just design what the protagonist looks like, some of them it's full "pick what faction you're from, pick your skills" creation that's clearly RPG-inspired. It's difficult to get a list of them though because of pushback in the 'traditional' VN communities.
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Jul 29, 2020 14:44
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Is there any way to buy Steins Gate: Linear Bounded Phenogram in English on the Switch?
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Jul 29, 2020 14:44
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gegi posted:it's both really - generic 'self-insert' characters (which you can really only self insert into if you're a particular sort of person) are very common but as I mentioned earlier many people do feel that if you can customise the protagonist to suit your tastes, it's not a VN anymore. To be clear I don't think that would necessarily make something not a VN, it just doesn't seem like it's an idea that would work well in one.
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Jul 29, 2020 20:45
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Ytlaya posted:Eh, there aren't really that many good VNs even in Japan, though the best ones are pretty great. I think I could count on two hands the number that are decent and the sort of thing I might feel comfortable recommending to someone. this is a ridiculous outlook to have about any medium and built on a weirdly exclusive view of storytelling, but saying it about one where you likely won't have experienced a large body of work due to language and popularity barriers resulting in a large amount of independent work that will never receive the same attention and popularity and maybe never even get translated, especially when mentioning a writer who famously managed to hit that amount of success and still only carries a portion of their work over those barriers, might be the most insane thing
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Jul 29, 2020 20:51
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Yeah, Ryukishi himself has stated his work is based on a rich preexisting tradition that, even at the time he wrote Higurashi and Umineko, was largely ignored because many people were sticking to a surface view of the genre.
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Jul 29, 2020 21:03
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Squiddycat posted:Is there any way to buy Steins Gate: Linear Bounded Phenogram in English on the Switch? Nope. Ps4/Steam only. I’m displeased about that and hope it gets a port soon.
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Jul 29, 2020 21:11
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The Colonel posted:this is a ridiculous outlook to have about any medium and built on a weirdly exclusive view of storytelling, but saying it about one where you likely won't have experienced a large body of work due to language and popularity barriers resulting in a large amount of independent work that will never receive the same attention and popularity and maybe never even get translated, especially when mentioning a writer who famously managed to hit that amount of success and still only carries a portion of their work over those barriers, might be the most insane thing FWIW I'm pretty sure Ytlaya has this point of view for all nerd poo poo, western or eastern.
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Jul 29, 2020 21:38
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mycot posted:FWIW I'm pretty sure Ytlaya has this point of view for all nerd poo poo, western or eastern. To be honest, they aren't wrong. The majority of all genre works in any medium are never going to "rise above the level of pulp entertainment" because they aren't trying to. Being well constructed, compelling and enjoyable is the target they strive for and what we as an audience are looking for. And that's perfectly cool. I enjoyed Raging Loop a lot, for example, I thinks its the best mystery VNs of the last couple years, but I didn't find it to be especially meaningful or remarkable in the grander picture of stuff I consume. It's a solid piece of entertainment, it has a lot of good stuff, as well as some stuff that's okay or even a bit bad. But it isn't anything beyond that. Nor did I expect or want it to be anything beyond that. As for the whole 'tons of hidden untranslated gems' aspect, it's probably true but imo the only useful discussions we can have are about things we've personally experienced in some way. AFancyQuestionMark fucked around with this message at 22:52 on Jul 29, 2020 |
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Jul 29, 2020 22:50
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AFancyQuestionMark posted:To be honest, they aren't wrong. The majority of all genre works in any medium are never going to "rise above the level of pulp entertainment" because they aren't trying to. Being well constructed, compelling and enjoyable is the target they strive for and what we as an audience are looking for. And that's perfectly cool. Yeah, I'm not a picky person myself but I don't think that viewpoint is even wrong, just an unpopular one in this age where consumerism is basically worshipped.
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Jul 29, 2020 23:10
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Irony Be My Shield posted:I don't think a player created character can really fit into a heavily narrative-based game unless the game is playing with the idea in some way. To me the protagonist's traits being arbitrarily decided by the player means that they cannot really occupy a place in the story as a defined character and that is a huge obstacle when it comes to storytelling. (continuing with my 'Everything's a spectrum!') Most VNs allow you to make some choices of some kind, and that means you are, in some ways, affecting their position as a defined character. In some VNs it's only as much of a choice as "which girl do you date?" But if your character is defined as having been in love with their childhood friend since forever, choosing to pursue or not pursue that romance affects the integrity of the 'defined' character, and requires the author to conceptualise multiple variants of that character. (Or to hand over each route to be written by totally different people who don't care at all about the consistency of the protagonist! It happens.) Many VNs with good/bad endings for character routes mean that through your choices you have some control over how much of a jerk or pushover the protagonist is, so suddenly that's not necessarily consistent between plays and the character is less of a defined character. And of course the more choices you make, the more varied that character's interactions might be, unless you just completely disregard all choices made by the player up until the very last choice in the game (which, admittedly, some writers do, but IMO this makes the narrative experience worse, not better - if you're consistently choosing the rear end in a top hat choices i think the game should eventually recognise you're an rear end in a top hat instead of waiting until the end and suddenly Bad End) Any stat-raising sim (if the stats have any integration with the story, which they don't always) means that you're making a lot of changes to that existing character. A number of games let you choose a male or female protagonist (with roughly the same personality or lack thereof), which definitely changes them being a defined character, though again the amount of effects it has on the story varies. In some games the plot is totally unchanged, or it only affects which love interests you can go after, or whatever. So we move further out and at a greater distance we end up in a Bioware style game where maybe you're picking your gender, your race, your class, and your background, and then going through a narrative-heavy game. How does that work? Well, in the Bioware examples, usually by making some more important aspect/role which is consistent between all possible character variants, and having that be what drives most of the story, with some mild effects based on the choices you made to define your character. You can't be just some random elf who lived in the woods and joined the Inquisition to be a cobbler. You are some random elf who happened to become the HERALD OF ANDRASTE and everyone you meet has feelings about that and interacts with you on that basis first, your details second. Is it perfect? No, of course not, they can't take into account every possibility you might come up with for what your character's personality is supposed to be, they're going to have to railroad you through things sometimes to make the story happen. But they can still definitely fit a character who is at least partly created by the player into a narrative-heavy game.
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Jul 29, 2020 23:12
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AFancyQuestionMark posted:To be honest, they aren't wrong. The majority of all genre works in any medium are never going to "rise above the level of pulp entertainment" because they aren't trying to. Being well constructed, compelling and enjoyable is the target they strive for and what we as an audience are looking for. And that's perfectly cool. I'm not sure how true that is. A lot of VNs are quite ambitious, even if the plot is still based on "pulp" so to speak. Often I do quite like the premise or the idea or the tone of the thing, it's just that the execution is so frequently a let down (even relative to other categories of nerd media). I don't mind consumerism or pandering or whatever, if you're reading these it's probably table stakes. I think the kicker here is how much time a VN could potentially waste you. They tend to be better at drawing your attention but worse at becoming quagmire 7 million  in.
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Jul 29, 2020 23:30
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Games like the ones Bioware makes do have elements that resemble VNs, but the majority of the play experience is still going to be actual gameplay, even if the dialogue and choices are a huge part of what they were sold as, while the majority of the experience of a VN is going to be passively reading/watching like a book or a movie even if the association with gameplay might create a connection with the protagonist (where there's a sense that you're playing as that character) in a way that rarely exists so strongly in those other media. There are VNs that reach out to be more like games, like Danganronpa and Zero Escape, and there are games that reach out from the other direction like the Persona series, so yeah there is a spectrum. Everyone can draw the line at a different place, and I don't have a hard and fast rule myself on when a VN stops being a game, but I do think kinetic novels fall outside it for sure.
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Jul 30, 2020 00:49
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The Colonel posted:this is a ridiculous outlook to have about any medium and built on a weirdly exclusive view of storytelling, but saying it about one where you likely won't have experienced a large body of work due to language and popularity barriers resulting in a large amount of independent work that will never receive the same attention and popularity and maybe never even get translated, especially when mentioning a writer who famously managed to hit that amount of success and still only carries a portion of their work over those barriers, might be the most insane thing I'm not saying that that there's anything wrong with being high quality entertainment; I included stuff like Steins;Gate or Raging Loop for this reason (as examples of things with better writing than the vast majority of Western narrative-focused games). But outside of this subset I don't think there's really a huge difference. I'd be curious if there are specific examples of how Japanese "indie" VNs are significantly better than indie Western narrative-focused games (this is an earnest question, not sarcastic). With regard to Japanese "nerd media" (for lack of a better term to encompass WNs/VNs/manga/anime) I'd say that both VNs and anime suffer from an issue that manga doesn't suffer from nearly as much - namely having a pretty limited audience that doesn't lend itself as well to the sort of artistic variety and "exploration" that happens in more broadly consumed/created mediums (like manga in this case). mycot posted:FWIW I'm pretty sure Ytlaya has this point of view for all nerd poo poo, western or eastern. This is mostly true, yeah. I don't mean it in a derisive way; most of the stuff I read/watch for fun fits under this category, and I probably get the most enjoyment out of things I'd describe as "high quality pulp entertainment."
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Jul 30, 2020 01:32
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gegi posted:(continuing with my 'Everything's a spectrum!') Tangentially, I wish someone would explore the effect of extreme localization on underlying narratives and stories. The most prominent example is Ace Attorney -- do the AA games and the Gyakuten Saiban games tell the same story? Are the characters the same characters? Or does transforming an absurdist parody of Japan and its culture into a bizarro hybrid country, and taking a completely ethnically homogenous Japanese cast and giving them diverse nationalities have a significant effect on the underlying story and narrative, and who the characters themselves are? The plot is (for the most part) the same, sure - but I'm not so sure about anything but the very surface level of events the games depict.
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Jul 30, 2020 01:34
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orenronen posted:Tangentially, I wish someone would explore the effect of extreme localization on underlying narratives and stories. The most prominent example is Ace Attorney -- do the AA games and the Gyakuten Saiban games tell the same story? Are the characters the same characters? Or does transforming an absurdist parody of Japan and its culture into a bizarro hybrid country, and taking a completely ethnically homogenous Japanese cast and giving them diverse nationalities have a significant effect on the underlying story and narrative, and who the characters themselves are? The plot is (for the most part) the same, sure - but I'm not so sure about anything but the very surface level of events the games depict. I do appreciate how fanartists worldwide have collectively decided the solution is that Maya eats both burgers and ramen.
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Jul 30, 2020 01:45
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Sinteres posted:Games like the ones Bioware makes do have elements that resemble VNs, but the majority of the play experience is still going to be actual gameplay, even if the dialogue and choices are a huge part of what they were sold as, while the majority of the experience of a VN is going to be passively reading/watching like a book or a movie even if the association with gameplay might create a connection with the protagonist (where there's a sense that you're playing as that character) in a way that rarely exists so strongly in those other media. There are VNs that reach out to be more like games, like Danganronpa and Zero Escape, and there are games that reach out from the other direction like the Persona series, so yeah there is a spectrum. Everyone can draw the line at a different place, and I don't have a hard and fast rule myself on when a VN stops being a game, but I do think kinetic novels fall outside it for sure. I would also say that you can use choices to better define your protagonist by showing the player a range of actions they would regard as reasonable, and showing how they behave in different possible scenarios. For instance, there's a choice in Fate/Stay Night where Shirou is forced to choose between his moral code and his heart, helping to illustrate a core conflict in the character and showing the different directions he could develop. In Steins;Gate when Okabe is pushed into taking actions that would harm his friends there is the option to stop - the existence of these choices and endings helps illustrate how difficult these choices are for him.
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Jul 30, 2020 03:03
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I finished Utawarerumono: Mask of Truth and I'm not going to lie, I really struggled with it especially towards the end. It was a story that I found so uncompelling in spots that after some plots I just straight up stopped playing for a few weeks, the nadir being the Woshis reveal and pretty much everything that followed which was especially dumb and forced. I don't know. The characters are all pretty good and the SOL and comedy, like the original, were highlights. But most of the more serious, war epic plot threads felt anemic and ultimately resolved in pretty unsatisfying ways, or in some cases just tediously kept going when you expected they were finally done with them (I seriously thought I had beaten Maroro for good like, three different times). They even had the gall to literally have the same basic ending as the original, only with Haku taking the place of Hakuoro to I guess give him a better ending?? Which feels especially unfair because Haku was an actual developed character compared to Hakuoro. Honestly too many years removed from the original VN to decide how I rank it compared to it but it does feel like it missed a lot than I expected which was a bummer.
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