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Knobb Manwich posted:They are cool dudes, well done. How tough was it to get their heads off? Thanks  The heads are separate on both kits so no issues there.
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Jul 28, 2020 00:40
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Werix posted:Couldn't you go the route of keeping all the old metal sisters their own squads? I'd imagine on the table top it wouldn't look too bad it the models aren't intermingled. Probably, I will give that a shot and see how it works; as long as they don't end up clumped together at some point probably other people wouldn't really notice it was beyond normal miniature variations. I had planned to use some of my old heavies as alternates for new Retributors (ie, if I wanted to have more than 2 of a weapon type) but subbing one into the group does not look good and made the difference really striking.
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Jul 28, 2020 00:42
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Help me out a tad here as I'm a bit new. My local group is going to start a Crusade group here in a bit and I'm working on a cool (IMO) narrative list and could use some help, the atmosphere is semi competitive so I figured I would post here. The idea is to run a bunch of auxilia, mainly in the form of a Bullgryn death ball backed up by a mono (probably lambdan lion) scion force. I currently have 25 scions. 1 squad of Bullgryns, two taurox primes and a valk. Using that as a base, what would you say is a good 500 point force and how would you scale that up to say 1000 or 2000 points??
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Jul 28, 2020 00:50
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DO IT TO IT posted:I'm having a really hard time understanding the new 9th edition terrain rules and could really use some help. The terrain chapter of the rulebook makes it sound like the first thing you do is look at the terrain piece's category, which tells you -how- you get cover from that piece. For example, for obstacles, it says that Infantry/Beasts/Swarms must be within 3" etc in order to receive cover from that terrain piece. Likewise, it says Infantry/Beasts/Swarms must be within the footprint of area terrain to receive cover. However, it doesn't mention Vehicles or Monsters at all. So the specific section you're on about says that Infantry, Beasts or Swarm models gain benefits of cover while within 3" of an obstacle. Since no other types are mentioned, no other types benefit from cover from this type of cover. You are right though in approach, you look at the Terrain Category (e.g. obstacle, area etc). Obstacles provide "benefits" (defined by tags) to infantry, beasts, and swarms within 3" assuming you're on the right side of it. Area terrain provides the "benefits (defined by tags) to Infantry, Beasts, or Swarm models inside it. Vehicles and beasts do not specifically gain the benefit of cover. quote:Then, based on how I'm reading it, after you look at the category to figure out how you get cover, you look at that specific terrain piece's traits in order to find out what kind of effect its cover provides. Light Cover for +1 armor save, etc. So does that mean that Vehicles and Monsters don't receive cover from terrain at all? They don't meet the criteria for any terrain categories, after all. I keep seeing people online talking about how Vehicles get cover now, but reading this chapter of the new rulebook, I just don't understand how that's possible. Re-reading this I can see where the confusion arises. It's because you're confusing a tag which provides a benefit to a unit, with a tag that makes the terrain behave in a certain way. For example: A ruined building may be considered "Light cover" and "obscuring" tags for a piece of area terrain. The area terrain means that infantry, beasts, and swarms gain the benefits of cover while inside it. When we look at these two tags, one says "When a ranged attacked is made against a unit receiving the benefits of this cover...add +1 to armour save rolls". This is pretty clear, it's a benefit of the cover, so it will only apply to infantry, beasts, and swarms inside the terrain (because it's area terrain). However, the other tag is obscuring, which essentially says that you cannot see through this piece of terrain if it's over 5" tall, unless you are inside it. Even though Vehicles and Monsters cannot gain the +1 benefit, they are not immune to the fact that the terrain is obscuring by it's very nature. So the reason they can benefit from this, is because unless you played on tournament boards with bottom level ruins all physically blocked out, LoS blocking terrain was non-existent and you could just fire through 5 ruined buildings as long as you could see a unit on the other side. Now, your tank or monster can sit behind the terrain (not touching it!) and now your opponent can't shoot you even if they can actually see you physically. quote:Also, the stuff about the height of terrain pieces. The height of a terrain piece just dictates what kinda cover traits it can have, right? And those traits are permanently set for that piece? One person was trying to tell me you have to measure the height of terrain mid-game to determine what it gives Vehicles, then I saw another saying only Dense Cover affects Vehicles. This past weekend, I went and made reference cards for each terrain piece I own mostly using the recommended ones in GW's examples and I thought I had a grasp on this. But then I started talking to friends and people online about terrain and now I'm just completely confused. Sounds like you've been told a bunch of stuff in poor ways and it's confused you. Essentially it works like this: Ruins are recommended to have the following tags: Scaleable, Breachable, Light Cover, Defensible, Obscuring. This is area terrain. This means: 1) Only infantry, beasts, swarms, and units with fly can move to upper levels of the ruin. Those units can move through floors and ceilings as if they weren't there. 2) Infantry, beasts, and swarms can move through the walls and other structural bits with no penalty. 3) Units benefiting from this cover gain +1 to armour saves against ranged attacks 4) Infantry units that are wholly within this terrain piece can "Hold Steady" or "set to defend"; and 5) If the terrain feature is over 5" in height, you basically can't shoot through it unless you're standing in it, or the target is standing in it. Now, say the table is covered in ruins, they will ALL have these tags. You may have a ruin that isn't physically big enough for nearly any unit to fully fit into the area of the ruin to benefit from "Defensible". It may be a ruin that is 3" tall, in which case it isn't "obscuring" anything using that rule (but still hides stuff with true LoS). It may have no ceiling or roof and no second floor, in which case scaleable is pointless. It's a standard set of features that applies to the same type of terrain, regardless of what it actually is. So you would have to measure whether a ruin is 5" tall or not, because if it is thjen it is "obscuring" everything on the other side, even if it has huge open windows. If it is only 3" tall though, then true LoS applies, and if they can see you they can shot you. Does this all make sense? Serdain posted:Eversor assassins have the text 'each time a model is slain it can make an additional attack against the same unit'... do these additional attacks require you to re-check engagement range, or does it count as the same 'attack' even if the opponent removes models closest to your drug-crazed lunatic? So in the rulebook it states that all attacks you have declared are always resolved against the target even if they are no longer in engagement range by models being removed through other sources killing models before you attack. Since you have already declared you are attacking the unit any extra attacks are essentially part of the same declared attack.
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Jul 28, 2020 01:08
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Kitchner posted:Wisdom Kitchner you're a goddamned treasure. Thank you.
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Jul 28, 2020 01:14
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Kitchner posted:lots of explanation Thanks for this, it really does help a lot! Here's a follow up question just to make sure I understand wrt Vehicles: If I'm understanding this correctly, Obscurring is kinda the only terrain effect that impacts Vehicles and Monsters then, right? Since they can't "receive cover" from obstacles and area terrain. If I'm right about that, I think I'm finally starting to wrap my head around all of it.
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Jul 28, 2020 01:17
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These space wolves special melee weapon points costs are really weird.
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Jul 28, 2020 01:19
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Bob Wins posted:Help me out a tad here as I'm a bit new. My local group is going to start a Crusade group here in a bit and I'm working on a cool (IMO) narrative list and could use some help, the atmosphere is semi competitive so I figured I would post here. The idea is to run a bunch of auxilia, mainly in the form of a Bullgryn death ball backed up by a mono (probably lambdan lion) scion force. I currently have 25 scions. 1 squad of Bullgryns, two taurox primes and a valk. Using that as a base, what would you say is a good 500 point force and how would you scale that up to say 1000 or 2000 points?? I'm in the middle of setting up a crusade thing with my friends, and my advice is that if you try to be competitive with crusade it will end in tears. Nothing stops you from taking loads of characters with relics and warlord traits, and then tooling them up with crazy combo stuff from battle honours. As for what to take in 500 points, for a bit of perspective, my crusade 500 point Guard list is: Inquisitor in Terminator Armour with a daemonhammer (with puritain for a 4++ and alpha-class psyker for 2 casts and denies), a company commander, an infantry squad, a ten man scion squad with 4 plasma guns, and 3 armoured sentinels (2 autocannons, 1 lascannon, 2 HK missiles). If you're running scions, then you'll need a Tempestor Prime, you'll want at least two units of scions to claim objectives, and then "stuff". Taking a Valkyrie in 500 points could be tricky to deal with, but if you want to take the Bullgryns I doubt you could afford both, unless its a small squad of bullgryns. Further it gets a bit tricky as you need to have half the number of units and points on the board so how you want to deploy these units can be tricky. For example you can have: A tempestor Prime, four squads of 5 scions, 3 Bullgyn, and a Valkyrie for 466 points. You can only start 3 of these units in reserve, so let's say it's a Tempestor and two 5 man squads of scions. You start with the Valkyrie, Bullgryn, and two 5 man squads on the board. It's a lot of squishy MSU but the bullgryn and Valk will be solid. In terms of how do you expand to 1,000-2,000 it depends if you're just going to stick with Scions and Auxillia. You see other than Bullgryns, and maybe ogryns now they are pretty cheap, the rest of the stuff is a bit lame. Ratlings are super expensive and not that great, Commissars are a bit pointless in your army etc. So if you're going for Tempestus Scions list only, you actually only have a few options to buy (scions, taurox etc). You could add in an inquisitor, or an assassin, to give you another edge. Realistically I'd say you need to have a Scion detachment supporting a AM detachment at 2,000 point if you want to do the best you can with the AM codex.
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Jul 28, 2020 01:23
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Serdain posted:Kitchner you're a goddamned treasure. Thank you. No worries dude, the first time I saw these rules I decided terrain rules are by far the hardest to get your head around and will cause arguments (for example, I don't think anyone is yet considering the fact a tall unit can hide behind a piece of area terrain that is totally flat apart from a 5" wall on one side, and a small fountain in the middle of the area, even if the 5" wall isn't in the way at all, or the fact if you have a big piece of terrain with a big second level, you can't move a unit over where an enemy unit is on the ground floor because you'd technically enter engagement range). DO IT TO IT posted:Thanks for this, it really does help a lot! Here's a follow up question just to make sure I understand wrt Vehicles: If I'm understanding this correctly, Obscurring is kinda the only terrain effect that impacts Vehicles and Monsters then, right? Since they can't "receive cover" from obstacles and area terrain. If I'm right about that, I think I'm finally starting to wrap my head around all of it. There's a few actually: 1) A dreadnought charges a unit on the 2nd floor of a ruins (5" vertical engagement range). The ruins are "defensible" and they choose to "Set to defend". The wording on this is hosed up in the rulebook but basically the liklihood is that the dreadnought's opponents would get +1 to hit. If it was heavy cover, they would also get +1 to armour saving throws against the close combat attacks, so the dreadnought player needs to consider all this. 2) A monster charges a unit behind a "defence line" obstacle. The rules state units can fight the enemy unit within 1" of the terrain feature as long as you touch the terrain feature and you're within 1" of the enemy. Basically if I am 1" from a barricade, and you can't stand on the barricade as it's unstable (see below) the monster is in engagement range from basically charging the wall itself. 3) A tank moves over the flat part of the area terrain base of some ruins. It must subtract 2" from it's movement. 4) A dreadnought goes to move over a barricade, however it's movement and advance isn't enough to move it's base wholly over the barricade. Since barricades are "unstable" and units cannot end their movement on them, and it can't get over it, it needs to stop before the barricade. 5) A scaleable ruin means only infantry, beasts, and swarms can go on top of the terrain, unless it has the FLY keyword, so any sort of hover tank can park on top of the ruin. 7) Inspiring statue gives my unit of sentinel walkers +1 to their leadership. The MAIN benefit to vehicles and monsters from cover is obscuring, as it stops people seeing the unit, and therefore shooting at it. There's plenty of more niche interactions defined by the tags though. Edit: Worth also pointing out obscuring has not effect for aircraft, nor for models with 18 wounds or more. This is mostly going to be planes and really big stuff though. Kitchner fucked around with this message at 01:40 on Jul 28, 2020 |
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Jul 28, 2020 01:34
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GuardianOfAsgaard posted:Thanks Ooh that's cool. Is the captain with the open helmet the same?
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Jul 28, 2020 04:59
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Knobb Manwich posted:Ooh that's cool. Is the captain with the open helmet the same? Yep, dude even has three head options. Closed helm, open helm, and bare head. Also a few basing options of minimal hero rock, big hero rock, and big hero rock + destroyed necron.
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Jul 28, 2020 05:28
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Kitchner posted:No worries dude, the first time I saw these rules I decided terrain rules are by far the hardest to get your head around and will cause arguments (for example, I don't think anyone is yet considering the fact a tall unit can hide behind a piece of area terrain that is totally flat apart from a 5" wall on one side, and a small fountain in the middle of the area, even if the 5" wall isn't in the way at all, or the fact if you have a big piece of terrain with a big second level, you can't move a unit over where an enemy unit is on the ground floor because you'd technically enter engagement range). Does a Predator parked inside the ground floor of ruins get +1 to armour saves against enemies shooting it from outside the ruins? e: Also a Statue is considered 'light cover' according to the core rulebook. That having been said, I only get the benefit of cover if they can't see all of my base from their vantage. Is there actually any scenario where a squad that isn't totally obfuscated actually makes your base harder to see??
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Jul 28, 2020 05:34
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The circumstances under which vehicles can benefit from cover is usually described in the rules that the vehicle has.
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Jul 28, 2020 05:42
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Vehicles do not get +1 save from obstacles. A vehicle behind a 5 high wall not touching it can be obscured though so -1 to hit if you can only draw a line through the obstacle to the base.. if it has less than 18 wounds and not a flier? And -1 to hit is not stackable so it's like popping smoke.
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Jul 28, 2020 07:16
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Yeah, it's a little confusing because they first make a big deal about the four categories of terrain and how 'area terrain' boundaries are important etc., and only infantry, swarms and beasts get bonus from being 'on/in' it. However, then it turns out that both obscuring and dense terrain also affect things behind them, not just ON them, which is then no longer limited to infantry/swarms/beasts. Obscuring by blocking visibility and we know this affects vehicles because there is an exemption for 18+ wounds and aircraft, and dense by "without any of those lines passing over or through any part of any terrain feature with this trait.". So, vehicles actually also get a -1 to hit, if they're BEHIND (not in/on) dense cover, since the rule only states that infantry/beast/swarm get it if they're inside the terrain. Just like they are obscured by obscuring. Also a little confusing 'light cover' just says "models receiving the benefits of cover from this feature" get +1 to armor saves, and since the main way to get this is being inside area terrain, being behind it (like behind a ruin) doesn't work for light cover, only in it. This is because the '"drawing lines over terrain" rule was specific to dense cover, and because obscuring only affects line of sight and doesn't give any cover-bonuses by itself. I like the new terrain rules, but there is several things that are not entirely clear. I'm not even confident that the above is entirely correct, but I'm pretty sure that's a RAW reading. E: IMO, the simplest way to do it, is just to say there are three main forms of terrain; ruins, woods and industrial structures, and the last two are extremely similar (then worry about all the smaller stuff, specifically obstacles. later). An area designated as ruins (if 5+ inches): Infantry (beasts/swarms) and vehicles are obscured if they are behind it (cannot be seen/targeted), except for units with models that has 18+ wounds or aircraft - remember that as soon as you touch it, you can see through it (that also goes for 18+ wound units). Infantry (beast/swarms) get +1 to armor saves inside ruins because of light cover. Vehicles get nothing even if they can fit in there. Infantry (beast/swarms) can also walk through and climb up it. Infantry (NOT beast/swarms) can also get hold steady or set to defend if charged. An area designated as woods (if 3+ inches): Infantry (beast/swarms) and vehicles get dense cover (-1 to hit) if they're behind it, except for units with models that has 18+ wounds or aircraft - remember it no longer gives this benefit if the attacker is touching it Infantry (beast/swarms) get -1 to hit from dense cover if they're inside it. Vehicles get nothing. Infantry (beast/swarms) can walk though it, but not climb up. Infantry (NOT beast/swarms) can also get hold steady or set to defend if charged. Everyone except fly gets -2 to various moves, if they're inside or passing over it. An area designated as industrial structures: Infantry (beast/swarms) and vehicles get dense cover (-1 to hit) if they're behind it Infantry (beast/swarms) get -1 to hit from dense cover if they're inside it. Vehicles get nothing. Infantry (beast/swarms) can also walk through and climb up it. Infantry (NOT beast/swarms) can also get hold steady or set to defend if charged. ee: Just adding a crater for good measure: An area designated as a crater: No benefit from being behind it. Infantry (beast/swarms) get +1 armor save when on it. Vehicles get nothing. Everyone except fly gets -2 to various moves, if they're inside or passing over it. Revelation 2-13 fucked around with this message at 09:28 on Jul 28, 2020 |
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Jul 28, 2020 08:18
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Preem Palver posted:Yep, dude even has three head options. Closed helm, open helm, and bare head. Also a few basing options of minimal hero rock, big hero rock, and big hero rock + destroyed necron. I don't know why but the idea of pick your artisanal rock to stand on is making me laugh.
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Jul 28, 2020 08:37
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 Love how these new minis go with some of the non codex chapters!
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Jul 28, 2020 08:43
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So with the Assault Intercessors, what's the verdict? 1 squad of 10 or two squads of 5?
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Jul 28, 2020 10:14
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Serdain posted:Does a Predator parked inside the ground floor of ruins get +1 to armour saves against enemies shooting it from outside the ruins? No. Why? A ruin is an Area Terrain, and the category Area Terrain specifies that Infantry, Beasts, and Swarms get the benefits of terrain from being inside the terrain. However, if the Predator was behind the ruins (and not touching it in any way), it would benefit from the Obscuring rule as the obscuring rule prevents other units from seeing it through the ruins. quote:e: Also a Statue is considered 'light cover' according to the core rulebook. That having been said, I only get the benefit of cover if they can't see all of my base from their vantage. Is there actually any scenario where a squad that isn't totally obfuscated actually makes your base harder to see?? The statue is an Obstacle, which means that all Infantry, Swarms, and Beasts gain the benefits of cover, as long as: 1) They are within 3" of the statue; and 2) The model shooting at them cannot draw line of sight from any part of the shooting model's base, to the entirety of the base of a model benefiting from the cover. So if you had 3 Space marine Eradicators, and they were standing "behind" the statue, and I had a unit directly opposite them it would probably be something like this: One model is hidden entirely by the statue, the model on the left has part of it's base hidden by the statue's base, and part of the model on the right's base has it's base hidden by the statue's base. Also worth noting that if you say had a unit where only one model was left alive, it would be a lot easier to hide the entire unit behind the statue but still be partly visible. Like I said in the previous post, lots of things have these tags so it's easy to say "all ruins work like this" and it doesn't really consider specific dimensions of the piece of terrain. An inspiring statue that has a wide and elaborate base is better "light cover" than the GW statue on it's own, but they'd have the same tags. All ruins are "obscuring" but unless that ruin is over 5" tall it doesn't do anything for you. A statue may be "Inspiring (Imperium) but if the battle is Orks vs Eldar then it has no effect on the game etc Yvonmukluk posted:So with the Assault Intercessors, what's the verdict? 1 squad of 10 or two squads of 5? I suspect if you only have 10 it's best to do two squads of 5. The only time squads of 10 would be better is if you're going to spam a whole bunch of them or they are going to be the only assault intercessor unit in your list and you have a bunch of MSU intercessors to hold objectives.
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Jul 28, 2020 13:22
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haakman posted:Love how these new minis go with some of the non codex chapters! Can’t wait to see that painted, it looks cool as gently caress!
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Jul 28, 2020 17:12
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Is the Ancient only in the Indomitus box? I'm not sure if I saw it in any of the starter boxes (I think Mr. Skellyshield is though).
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Jul 28, 2020 17:15
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Eeyup, so far he's only available in the Indomitus box. The Captain and Lt are in the various starter boxes.
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Jul 28, 2020 17:20
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Every time I see that Ancient I keep hearing the bit about how he's carrying the guy's hand they did during the Indominus unboxing stream.
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Jul 28, 2020 17:24
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Alokgen posted:For the whites I built it up using Celestial Grey and Ulthuan Grey. For the chips, I used a darkish brown and sponged it on using a piece of pluck foam then did Apothecary White all over then highlighted some edges with white. I almost feel embarrassed posting this in comparison to how good your stuff looks, but last night I spent a couple hours working on the blade effect trying to get it right. I don't think I'm there yet but I learned a lot and I can see how to improve at least. Thanks for your advice! The ivory highlights make an amazing difference.  
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Jul 28, 2020 17:37
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Do any of you have the current plastic Cypher? Can you tell me if he's traditionally small, or stealth Primaris sized like the current Chaos Marines/Death Guard, please.
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Jul 28, 2020 17:41
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Somberbrero posted:I almost feel embarrassed posting this in comparison to how good your stuff looks, but last night I spent a couple hours working on the blade effect trying to get it right. I don't think I'm there yet but I learned a lot and I can see how to improve at least. Thanks for your advice! The ivory highlights make an amazing difference. The one tip I did see online is using a little apothecary white watered down over the transitions can help soften the blend, but you still need the coloured sections to be very distinct otherwise it doesn't get the effect you're affter. Kitchner fucked around with this message at 18:05 on Jul 28, 2020 |
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Jul 28, 2020 18:02
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Lovely Joe Stalin posted:Do any of you have the current plastic Cypher? Can you tell me if he's traditionally small, or stealth Primaris sized like the current Chaos Marines/Death Guard, please. I have him, and he is a regulation sized space marine. (He came out prior to Primaris.)
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Jul 28, 2020 18:05
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My Death Guard were done, but then War of the Spider came out, I wanted the build something and plague surgeons might be okay now soooo I've been painting some nids too     And fixing up some older battered paintjobs    Before redoing them I would have told you I liked metal models, but after painting loads of plastic minis and then coming back to these? gently caress metal, it's a giant pain in the rear end and I don't miss it anymore 
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Jul 28, 2020 18:49
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ro5s posted:
Last time I had to work with a metal model I said to my friends I'm glad they are going, and GW finecast resin has it's problem but it's still better than metal.
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Jul 28, 2020 18:53
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I've always been baffled by anyone who prefers anything over plastic ever since I was introduced to the hobby with Assault On Black Reach. Every now and then I'm like, "Oh <some other minis game>, looks cool" and then I remember it's going to be metal and I want nothing to do with it. And drat, it seems like everyone is doing some kind of Pallid Hand death guard nowadays, huh? That's what I was gonna do but now I don't want to after seeing tons of it on /r/DeathGuard40K
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Jul 28, 2020 19:02
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Non-GW resin models can be really nice. I’ve been painting up a couple of Nocturna minis and they’re great
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Jul 28, 2020 19:13
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The worst experience I've had with resin was when I got a bad couple of Raging Heroes minis that absolutely refused to bond with the primer despite several washes, including a prolonged soak in talcum powder. Thankfully after emailing their support about it they sent me replacements and they fully acknowledged I might have gotten from a bad batch, despite having ordered them several years ago. Which was very nice of them.
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Jul 28, 2020 19:18
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Somberbrero posted:I almost feel embarrassed posting this in comparison to how good your stuff looks, but last night I spent a couple hours working on the blade effect trying to get it right. I don't think I'm there yet but I learned a lot and I can see how to improve at least. Thanks for your advice! The ivory highlights make an amazing difference. You're on the right track. Darken the ends of the green area (I used a bit of nuln oil) and it'll bump up the contrast. Also on the bottom blade, you want the gradients to be going in opposite directions.
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Jul 28, 2020 19:18
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jesus WEP posted:Non-GW resin models can be really nice. I’ve been painting up a couple of Nocturna minis and they’re great  
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Jul 28, 2020 19:21
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That's totally Dio right?
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Jul 28, 2020 19:40
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look if you aren't down with spending an hour getting a feathered codpiece just right, idk what to tell you
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Jul 28, 2020 20:27
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Buttholes and armpits are the most annoying things to paint
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Jul 28, 2020 20:35
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if the butthole is textured an oil wash will take perfect care of it for you
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Jul 28, 2020 20:38
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EL FLAUTISTA
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Jul 28, 2020 20:56
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That dragon looks like he's yelling at the dude to shut up.
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Jul 28, 2020 21:34
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