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This is 23 panels of words and I'm here for it.
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Jul 28, 2020 20:26
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Lt. Lizard posted:By this metric the Azure City and Gobotopia are at war and Gobotopia should have no special protection against the government in exile of Azure City and their efforts to gather allies, build an army and reconquer Azure City. I'm guessing that would be one of the more fiddly bits of the negotiations, and probably end in some form of compromise position after some furious debate. I am very much glad that Durkon seems to understand that Redcloak is not really as much of a villain as he'd otherwise believed.
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Jul 28, 2020 20:30
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AnoHito posted:I'm guessing that would be one of the more fiddly bits of the negotiations, and probably end in some form of compromise position after some furious debate. I mean he's just come head to head with a fundamental injustice of the universe, put that way solely to amuse the gods, that his own people suffer eternally for so he may be the person most willing to hear this in the whole world
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Jul 28, 2020 20:49
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Huh. Redcloak Ben-Gurion.
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Jul 28, 2020 21:18
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Lt. Lizard posted:By this metric the Azure City and Gobotopia are at war and Gobotopia should have no special protection against the government in exile of Azure City and their efforts to gather allies, build an army and reconquer Azure City. There is no Azure City to be at war with. It's not a place that exists any more.
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Jul 28, 2020 21:41
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Who What Now posted:There is no Azure City to be at war with. It's not a place that exists any more. There is New Azure City or whatever it is called on the island off the western continent. It's not in any shape to fight a war at the moment, though. AnoHito posted:I'm guessing that would be one of the more fiddly bits of the negotiations, and probably end in some form of compromise position after some furious debate. Definitely fiddly. I think the return of the slaves to the Azurites would be a requirement for peace at the very least.
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Jul 28, 2020 22:24
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Stabbey_the_Clown posted:There is New Azure City or whatever it is called on the island off the western continent. It's not in any shape to fight a war at the moment, though. Going on real history they're a generation away from a leader who tries to make themselves a name by "retaking what's ours"
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Jul 28, 2020 22:34
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I think my favorite moment in this one is panel 8 of the first page. "I wouldn't expect a dwarf who grew up surrounded by gold and gems to understand what it's like to struggle or do without." "... Uh huh." I love how Durkon just lets the comment slide instead of pointing out that he grew up in a poor household after his recently widowed, disabled mother gave away a king's ransom in wealth just to save five complete strangers from eternal torment. He understands that it's more important to keep the negotiation going than it is to correct Redcloak about his own biases, so he chooses to be the bigger man and simply continue hearing Redcloak out. Thor's faith in Durkon is absolutely justified, he really was the best possible pick for this task. 
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Jul 28, 2020 23:17
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W.T. Fits posted:I love how Durkon just lets the comment slide instead of pointing out that he grew up in a poor household after his recently widowed, disabled mother gave away a king's ransom in wealth just to save five complete strangers from eternal torment. He understands that it's more important to keep the negotiation going than it is to correct Redcloak about his own biases, so he chooses to be the bigger man and simply continue hearing Redcloak out.
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Jul 28, 2020 23:36
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FMguru posted:It's also an interesting contrast to Redcloak, who keeps drfting away from the point onto tangents about "do Gods' eyes need lubrication?" and "what kind of fear do they have of me?" while Durkon repeatedly has to get him back to the matter at hand. It’s almost like Durkon is arguing in good faith and Redcloak is not. Honestly this reads like me trying to talk about *gestures vaguely at the USA* with my grandparents. Everything is tangents and they have no real interest in reassessing their viewpoints.
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Jul 28, 2020 23:49
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Eh, this is probably the first time Redcloak has gotten any legitimate acknowledgement outside of a group of people who see him as a spiritual leader. He hasn't even been getting any attaboys from his god, either.
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Jul 29, 2020 00:04
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I don't think Redcloak is arguing in bad faith, he's suspicious with good reason to be concerned and so is throwing up defences and barriers psychological or otherwise that Durkon has to get through.
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Jul 29, 2020 00:13
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Who What Now posted:There is no Azure City to be at war with. It's not a place that exists any more. Both the population of Azure City as well as its legitimate government exist, consider themselves a part of/a government of Azure City and are recognized as such by other nations, so actually "Azure City" is definitely a thing that still exists.
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Jul 29, 2020 00:29
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Redcloak is arguing for equality, but I suspect what he really wants is for some comeuppance to come to the other races for a while.
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Jul 29, 2020 00:31
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nimby posted:Redcloak is arguing for equality, but I suspect what he really wants is for some comeuppance to come to the other races for a while. I think that's the thread Durkon's poking at, too.
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Jul 29, 2020 00:47
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He doesn't want peace, he wants to win. He thinks that the gods are scared for themselves and that he has the upper hand, when actually the gods are more just worried about their creation and mostly taking this in stride because they've gone through all this before. And most importantly, Thor isn't offering capitulation, he's offering a real partnership, which means that the other gods can't backstab the Dark One, but it also means that they're not going to want to give up a whole lot because this isn't a surrender.
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Jul 29, 2020 02:16
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"We'll stop treating you like sub-human bags of XP" is not really much of a compromise.
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Jul 29, 2020 02:17
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I feel like I've been waiting for this conversation (or one like it) to take place in this story for so long that now that it's finally happening, there's something almost surreal about reading it. "Are we really here now? Is this actually finally happening?" I'm enjoying the scene immensely, but it somehow feels odd to be actually reading it, rather than just anticipating it.
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Jul 29, 2020 02:34
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Cabbit posted:"We'll stop treating you like sub-human bags of XP" is not really much of a compromise. The problem is that we've seen plenty of humans being treated as just bags of XP. That's the reality of the world they're in where there's a whole lot of people who are literally NPCs and are somehow compelled to act in ways that may be against their own interests in the name of keeping the campaigns of player characters going. I think the first warning to me was how Redcloak immediately pivoted away when Durkon first started to make a material offering, and then his big speech on Goblin oppression ends on another threat, which I think demonstrates a lack of understanding over what the gods are concerned about.
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Jul 29, 2020 03:21
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Durkon's not explaining this super well.
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Jul 29, 2020 03:32
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this is probably the first time Redcloak's ever really been able to talk about The Plan, especially with someone who doesn't already agree with it
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Jul 29, 2020 03:33
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Johnny Aztec posted:It's not Durkon's place to say or decide anything about any earthly kingdoms. Incorrect. There's a reason achieving equality for historically oppressed peoples requires reparations. In order for long term equality between the oppressors and oppressed to be achieved, the oppressed must be afforded special positive protections, at least in the relative short-to-medium term. Redcloak needs to stop beating around the bush say what he really wants for goblins: full PC race status, all the perks that implies, and no strings attached.
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Jul 29, 2020 03:43
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Yeah, unfortunately there's no way to seriously address this question without the entire bag of worms of how to address the concerns of historically oppressed people in the real world.
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Jul 29, 2020 04:36
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What redcloak really wants, which is the only way to ensure what he says he wants will happen and stay that way, is the Dark One as a fully acknowledged and accepted God among the other Gods. It's the only way to ensure full pc status for goblins. He or the dwarf have to come to realize this before the negotiations can really get going.
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Jul 29, 2020 05:00
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It does seem out of character that an obsessive planner like redcloak doesn't have a list of demands prepared. Especially since this is his life's mission. I guess he expected his God to do all the talking?
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Jul 29, 2020 05:20
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ikanreed posted:It does seem out of character that an obsessive planner like redcloak doesn't have a list of demands prepared. Especially since this is his life's mission. He said he did even not expect a messenger from the gods to come and negotiate with him.
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Jul 29, 2020 05:31
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MonsterEnvy posted:He said he did even not expect a messenger from the gods to come and negotiate with him. The double negatives in that dialogue were confusing, but I thought he meant he did expect it
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Jul 29, 2020 05:40
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W.T. Fits posted:I think my favorite moment in this one is panel 8 of the first page. I dunno though. Durkon and his mom were poor in terms of money, but they had a huge found family around them to help out in non-monetary ways, emotional support, etc. And they lived in a stable, functional society. Redcloak saw almost his entire family murdered in front of him when he was still in his teens, along with his entire village, and then had to go on the run while protecting his kid brother. Also, Redcloak's life was harder specifically because of the inequality that the gods baked in where humanoids are deemed to have less moral value by humans and demihumans. Durkon's life is also easier specifically because of that inequality - his mom was able to rez the rest of his family with treasure that she got from killing a troll. (The troll was described as "terrorizing the villagers" but was it actually? Or was it just perceived as a threat in the same way that the Sapphire Guard perceived Redcloak's village as one?) At any rate, there was still racism in play even if the troll was actually attacking dwarven villagers. In the real world, when a criminal is executed, their possessions go to their descendants according to normal probate law. But when a troll criminal is killed (without any kind of judicial process), their possessions get looted by whoever was strong enough to kill them. It seems unlikely that would happen to a dwarf or human criminal, at least in a non-evil polity. So the broader point Redcloak is making is also correct. To be fair it's not like Redcloak knows any of that stuff about Durkon... but his intuition that Durkon had a way easier life than him is certainly correct. And to go back to the real world analogy, I think it behooves those of us who have privilege to step back and consider that this kind of intuition is frequently empirically grounded in the lived experience of people who don't have that kind of privilege.
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Jul 29, 2020 05:54
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ikanreed posted:Yeah, unfortunately there's no way to seriously address this question without the entire bag of worms of how to address the concerns of historically oppressed people in the real world. Which is why I think that the only thing stopping an agreement between the two is some sort of bad faith biz from a character that is not Redcloak. Otherwise, the implication of Redcloak acting in bad faith after his statement is pretty much Rich being very racist. And I (fingers crossed) hope that isn't the case. edit: lol also this is the first time i've commented in this thread after lurking here for like 10 drat years. edit2: haha actually 13+, sick.
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Jul 29, 2020 06:42
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Redcloak being a bad person on a personal level and Redcloak having legitimate grievances are not incompatible things. It is true that Redcloak has already won at this point. He is more interested in vendetta than victory though.
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Jul 29, 2020 07:51
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Bobulus posted:Since we just had a discussion on the disconnect between Redcloak and his purple god, it makes me think: even if Redcloak is being genuine here and considers Gobbotopia as much expansion as his people need (and I suspect he's bluffing a little here), does TDO agree? He's a war god, who in life was betrayed at peace talks. Seems like he wouldn't be content to one little corner of the world. Redcloak also ascends as a God of the Purple Quiddity, in which his aspects are Equality and Dithering. Helps balance out TDO. W.T. Fits posted:I think my favorite moment in this one is panel 8 of the first page. Thanks for posting this. I knew it was a meaningful "Uh Huh" but I didn't know what the meaning was. Donkringel fucked around with this message at 08:10 on Jul 29, 2020 |
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Jul 29, 2020 08:07
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Gobbotopia guaranteed until the next rift is formed and fixed.
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Jul 29, 2020 08:10
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Captain Oblivious posted:Redcloak being a bad person on a personal level and Redcloak having legitimate grievances are not incompatible things. It is true that Redcloak has already won at this point. He is more interested in vendetta than victory though. Whether Redcloak has already won depends on what his definition of winning is. The plan was to have a knife at the gods' throat and force them to stop screwing over goblins. This new plan is to negotiate, and count on everyone to keep faith over centuries. And that might lead to goblins not being xp bags anymore, but it's definitely not what he thought winning was when he woke up this morning.
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Jul 29, 2020 08:24
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Lt. Lizard posted:Both the population of Azure City as well as its legitimate government exist, consider themselves a part of/a government of Azure City and are recognized as such by other nations, so actually "Azure City" is definitely a thing that still exists. The Sovereign Military Order of Malta is still officially recognized as a state despite having lost control of Malta since Napoleon kicked them out.
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Jul 29, 2020 08:49
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Cat Mattress posted:The Sovereign Military Order of Malta is still officially recognized as a state despite having lost control of Malta since Napoleon kicked them out. I was thinking more about Polish and Czechoslovakian governments in exile during 2nd World War, but sure that works too.  The country-in-exile might never get its territory back, but the idea that a country simply stops existing once all of its land is occupied and the occupying force gets a clean slate to do whatever it wishes with it is reprehensible.
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Jul 29, 2020 11:09
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Captain Oblivious posted:Redcloak being a bad person on a personal level and Redcloak having legitimate grievances are not incompatible things.
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Jul 29, 2020 11:46
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Ponsonby Britt posted:I dunno though. Durkon and his mom were poor in terms of money, but they had a huge found family around them to help out in non-monetary ways, emotional support, etc. And they lived in a stable, functional society. Redcloak saw almost his entire family murdered in front of him when he was still in his teens, along with his entire village, and then had to go on the run while protecting his kid brother. Also, Redcloak's life was harder specifically because of the inequality that the gods baked in where humanoids are deemed to have less moral value by humans and demihumans. Durkon's life is also easier specifically because of that inequality - his mom was able to rez the rest of his family with treasure that she got from killing a troll. (The troll was described as "terrorizing the villagers" but was it actually? Or was it just perceived as a threat in the same way that the Sapphire Guard perceived Redcloak's village as one?) At any rate, there was still racism in play even if the troll was actually attacking dwarven villagers. In the real world, when a criminal is executed, their possessions go to their descendants according to normal probate law. But when a troll criminal is killed (without any kind of judicial process), their possessions get looted by whoever was strong enough to kill them. It seems unlikely that would happen to a dwarf or human criminal, at least in a non-evil polity. This is making me think that we're about to stumble onto a problem inherent of the setting being based on D&D. Adventurers are a thing, and adventurers' whole reason to exist is looting the corpses and dens of things they've killed. Changing so they can no longer do that without Consequences because as it turns out those things are actually people and deserve to be treated as such is going to shake the entire foundation of this thing.
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Jul 29, 2020 12:01
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Azure City probably won't be the big bottleneck of a peace treaty, given that (Good Deeds Gone Unpunished) the survivors are actually thriving on their island settlement, and Hinjo and O-Chul were key players in the previous hobgoblin peace agreement, and there's ideally someone who remembers their role in it. So long as the slaves of Gobbotopia are freed, they could be talked into recognizing Gobbotopia for the greater good.Skooms posted:Which is why I think that the only thing stopping an agreement between the two is some sort of bad faith biz from a character that is not Redcloak. Otherwise, the implication of Redcloak acting in bad faith after his statement is pretty much Rich being very racist. And I (fingers crossed) hope that isn't the case. I don't think that's necessarily the case. Redcloak has spent his entire life carefully manipulating bad faith actors surrounding him, chiefly Xykon. He killed the one person he fully trusted and knew to be on his side. O-Chul was the first person to treat him remotely as an equal after that, and he was not in a position to negotiate. Even if Durkon manages to earn his trust, it's a big step for that trust to be extended to his god, who took part in the fundamental betrayal of the goblin peoples.
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Jul 29, 2020 12:02
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I actually think it's hilarious that Redcloak thinks all dwarves are rich, because when you get right down to it, how would he know otherwise?
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Jul 29, 2020 14:27
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| # ? May 25, 2024 09:27 |
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paradoxGentleman posted:This is making me think that we're about to stumble onto a problem inherent of the setting being based on D&D. Adventurers are a thing, and adventurers' whole reason to exist is looting the corpses and dens of things they've killed. Changing so they can no longer do that without Consequences because as it turns out those things are actually people and deserve to be treated as such is going to shake the entire foundation of this thing. ikanreed posted:Yeah, unfortunately there's no way to seriously address this question without the entire bag of worms of how to address the concerns of historically oppressed people in the real world. Which is. Y'know. hosed. And I think the whole 'hah, how ironic, Redcloak fails to realize that Durkon's family was poor, perhaps indeed Both Sides have bigotry that must be addressed EHHHHHHHH???' moment is a giant ringing warning as to which of those ways the story's going to end up swinging, because Ponsonby Britt posted:I dunno though. Durkon and his mom were poor in terms of money, but they had a huge found family around them to help out in non-monetary ways, emotional support, etc. And they lived in a stable, functional society. Redcloak saw almost his entire family murdered in front of him when he was still in his teens, along with his entire village, and then had to go on the run while protecting his kid brother. Also, Redcloak's life was harder specifically because of the inequality that the gods baked in where humanoids are deemed to have less moral value by humans and demihumans. Durkon's life is also easier specifically because of that inequality - his mom was able to rez the rest of his family with treasure that she got from killing a troll. (The troll was described as "terrorizing the villagers" but was it actually? Or was it just perceived as a threat in the same way that the Sapphire Guard perceived Redcloak's village as one?) At any rate, there was still racism in play even if the troll was actually attacking dwarven villagers. In the real world, when a criminal is executed, their possessions go to their descendants according to normal probate law. But when a troll criminal is killed (without any kind of judicial process), their possessions get looted by whoever was strong enough to kill them. It seems unlikely that would happen to a dwarf or human criminal, at least in a non-evil polity. Drakyn fucked around with this message at 16:25 on Jul 29, 2020 |
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Jul 29, 2020 16:16
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