|
I used shiny flowers to kill the sumo bros boss in the refight because I got frustrated trying to kill the little one holding the magic circle lol They worked great
|
#
?
Jul 29, 2020 04:08
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 29, 2024 09:53 |
|
|
What do you get for the refights by the way? I haven't done them yet but the museum doesn't have a trophy for them at the least
|
|
#
?
Jul 29, 2020 04:11
|
|
|
John Wick of Dogs posted:What do you get for the refights by the way? I haven't done them yet but the museum doesn't have a trophy for them at the least You get the last Toad Town collectible
|
|
#
?
Jul 29, 2020 04:12
|
|
|
Bleck posted:"if the combat were more of a slog I'd like it a lot more" the average random encounter in origami king is at least twice as long as the average random encounter in the first two paper mario games, every problem only has one correct solution, there is no customization whatsoever.
|
|
#
?
Jul 29, 2020 04:24
|
|
|
Augus posted:the average random encounter in origami king is at least twice as long as the average random encounter in the first two paper mario games That's definitely not true Don't disagree about them feeling more repetitive, but they are so, so short
|
|
#
?
Jul 29, 2020 04:27
|
|
|
Augus posted:the average random encounter in origami king is at least twice as long as the average random encounter in the first two paper mario games, every problem only has one correct solution, there is no customization whatsoever. yeah but actually finding the solution uses some of my brain's horsepower, instead of a system that gives me one hundred different toys that are all functionally as effective as each other
|
|
#
?
Jul 29, 2020 04:27
|
|
|
Blackbelt Bobman posted:So Ninji and ...? iirc some Spike type enemies were also immune but I might be mixing that up with jumps. (In which case use flowers)
|
|
#
?
Jul 29, 2020 04:28
|
|
|
Regy Rusty posted:That's definitely not true the timer to clear a puzzle is over a minute long and I regularly run out of time in battles Bleck posted:yeah but actually finding the solution uses some of my brain's horsepower, instead of a system that gives me one hundred different toys that are all functionally as effective as each other it's tedious and annoying and hurts my eyes to look at I was okay with it for like the first two chapters but I'm so sick of these stupid tile puzzles now. Augus fucked around with this message at 04:51 on Jul 29, 2020 |
|
#
?
Jul 29, 2020 04:31
|
|
|
I realized why most of the bosses in the game are at least partially immune to being jumped on, after the rematch with Fire Vellumental. The best strategy against it is to simply move an attack icon to the spot you start at and jump on it until it runs out of feathers, especially after it covers the board with feathers. Heal as necessary, you can heal much more than it can damage you Then blast it with water and rip its crown off. If more bosses were like this it would be really boring.
|
|
#
?
Jul 29, 2020 04:52
|
|
|
Huh. I noticed they reversed the dynamic of jumps and hammers in this game, where hammers are the more useful attack compared to jumping in every other Mario RPG. I didn't know why until you spelled it out.
|
|
#
?
Jul 29, 2020 05:15
|
|
|
The other important factor is that perfect jump timing is way easier than hammers.
|
|
#
?
Jul 29, 2020 05:43
|
|
|
Bleck posted:yeah but actually finding the solution uses some of my brain's horsepower, instead of a system that gives me one hundred different toys that are all functionally as effective as each other This is exactly why I like OK's combat. When you actually get to command selection it's generic as hell, sure, but getting to it and figuring out how the hell I'm supposed to piece it together is at least engaging to me. If you're focusing just on the command selection part then you're not really giving it a fair shake.
|
|
#
?
Jul 29, 2020 05:54
|
|
|
wow the ice vellumental has a lot going on felt like the sum total of every other boss to date in terms of the amount of stuff to figure out and the number of 'phases' EDIT: also shook as hell about fighting this dude in the sim Violen fucked around with this message at 06:12 on Jul 29, 2020 |
|
#
?
Jul 29, 2020 06:09
|
|
|
In ever boss fight I've been exclusively rotating the panels. It somehow just. Never occurred to me that I could slide them across. Oh my God, I'm at the Ice Vellumental, I've spent so much time making my own life harder.
|
|
#
?
Jul 29, 2020 06:38
|
|
|
Also I've been in multiple fights with more than one solution, where the circles show one thing and say "3 moves" and I say "Nah" and do a different arrangement in 2 moves
|
|
#
?
Jul 29, 2020 11:31
|
|
|
YggiDee posted:In ever boss fight I've been exclusively rotating the panels. It somehow just. Never occurred to me that I could slide them across. Oh my God, I'm at the Ice Vellumental, I've spent so much time making my own life harder. Omg me too. I'm just in the yellow streamer chapter but still. gently caress. Thank you
|
|
#
?
Jul 29, 2020 12:40
|
|
|
John Wick of Dogs posted:Also I've been in multiple fights with more than one solution, where the circles show one thing and say "3 moves" and I say "Nah" and do a different arrangement in 2 moves Yes, many of the puzzles have multiple solutions. I also didn’t realize you could slide panels during bosses until you have to do it during the Ice Vellumental fight. Good times. Edit: if you solve a puzzle in fewer turns than it gives you, your puzzle solving bonus at the end of the match is doubled.
|
|
#
?
Jul 29, 2020 12:44
|
|
|
Oh good I'm not the only one who never thought to slide panels until the Ice Vellumental fight. Speaking of was anyone else expecting a tiger? You know to complete the four symbols.
|
|
#
?
Jul 29, 2020 13:00
|
|
|
Electric Phantasm posted:Oh good I'm not the only one who never thought to slide panels until the Ice Vellumental fight. Yep. I caught onto the theming by Fire Vellumental, which explained why the Earth one was basically a Koopa. And got thrown for a bit of a loop when I saw they swapped out Byakko for a polar bear.
|
|
#
?
Jul 29, 2020 13:14
|
|
|
Augus posted:the timer to clear a puzzle is over a minute long and I regularly run out of time in battles The timer is over a minute long because the game is designed for players of all ages (and also because of upgrade accessories). It is genuinely not hard to finish a fight in significantly less time unless you get a particularly nasty. Which is good because the game making you think about what you're going to do is a plus, not a minus. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 13:44 on Jul 29, 2020 |
|
#
?
Jul 29, 2020 13:42
|
|
|
If you like puzzle games
|
|
#
?
Jul 29, 2020 13:47
|
|
|
Spellman posted:If you like puzzle games I mean I do enjoy puzzle games but I also feel most (good) JRPG combat systems are puzzle games where the goal is to figure out exactly how to deal the most damage in a single turn so the difference isn't very significant to me. Figuring out how to avoid enemies getting counterattacks has increasingly been the goal of most JRPG combat for a good while now. Paper Mario is a simplified kid version of the idea but that has been true of pretty much every PM game where they make things as basic as possible so they can be all-ages accessible.
|
|
#
?
Jul 29, 2020 13:55
|
|
|
You can also always just throw the toads a few coins if you get a tricky one at a point where you're tired of battling
|
|
#
?
Jul 29, 2020 13:57
|
|
|
The other paper Mario games don't even have timers so they can take even longer. I'm still in a battle from one.
|
|
#
?
Jul 29, 2020 14:15
|
|
|
Optimization of efficient murder is the best puzzle of all and TOK just presents that puzzle in a different way than normal.
|
|
#
?
Jul 29, 2020 14:57
|
|
|
ImpAtom posted:I mean I do enjoy puzzle games but I also feel most (good) JRPG combat systems are puzzle games where the goal is to figure out exactly how to deal the most damage in a single turn so the difference isn't very significant to me. Figuring out how to avoid enemies getting counterattacks has increasingly been the goal of most JRPG combat for a good while now. Paper Mario is a simplified kid version of the idea but that has been true of pretty much every PM game where they make things as basic as possible so they can be all-ages accessible. I think people who like Mario RPGs prefer an Action Commands as the primary barrier of entry—that was the main differential between it and other games with turn-based combat. TTYD enhanced this with stylish flair moves that you could use to charge a magic meter. M&L had you reacting to clues to which brother the enemy would attack. It was understood, it was comfy to most fans cuz they've played Mario and they know how to Jump I'm okay with the puzzle, there is no timer, you just pause for hint and work the puzzle out in your head. It's fair and serviceable. But they stripped the combat down to jump, hammer. Flower. There's no stylish moves, or an ally with a moveset that you have control over. And the enemy attack is gonna gently caress you up either way. So I guess you could say the battle system is Just OK, or at least needlessly divisive
|
|
#
?
Jul 29, 2020 15:10
|
|
|
Big thanks to the OP for recommending Bug Fables, gave it a second try and loved the heck out of it after I got through the starter dungeon. I'm really glad you guys seem to be enjoying this game, despite the fact that it seems like it's Not For Me. Having a fun game to play really does wonders for my mental state and stress levels, here's hoping Paper Mario does the same for y'all. Edit: if I wanted to give TTYD a second go, what would be the best way to do that? I have a switch and 3DS, no WiiU.
|
|
#
?
Jul 29, 2020 15:33
|
|
|
There's no port of that game on either of those, or anything really, so your options are paying out the nose for a used copy or going for the grayer solution.
|
|
#
?
Jul 29, 2020 15:48
|
|
|
I don't think ttyd is available anywhere other than its initial release. Your best bet legally is probably buying a used Wii and gcn controller (I think the new Smash bros controllers actually work on the gcn/Wii as well) and trying to find a copy for cheap, but it's been marked up a lot by resellers.
|
|
#
?
Jul 29, 2020 15:49
|
|
|
Spellman posted:I think people who like Mario RPGs prefer an Action Commands as the primary barrier of entry—that was the main differential between it and other games with turn-based combat. TTYD enhanced this with stylish flair moves that you could use to charge a magic meter. M&L had you reacting to clues to which brother the enemy would attack. It was understood, it was comfy to most fans cuz they've played Mario and they know how to Jump OK has action commands too. They are often the difference between one shorting and not. Likewise there is action defense same as the PM games and MRPG. Only M&L lets you totally avoid damage.
|
|
#
?
Jul 29, 2020 15:55
|
|
|
Thanks for the answers, guys. I actually found a bunch of my old (unprotected, scratched to hell) gamecube disks but TTYD wasn't one of them. Oh well, if I can't find it (or a working gamecube), I can always obey international copyright law.
|
|
#
?
Jul 29, 2020 16:02
|
|
|
ImpAtom posted:OK has action commands too. They are often the difference between one shorting and not. Likewise there is action defense same as the PM games and MRPG. Only M&L lets you totally avoid damage. Mario and Luigi combat owned and it makes me sad that the latest games made it such a slog.
|
|
#
?
Jul 29, 2020 16:15
|
|
|
I don't see how you could look at an elegant and simple turn-based system with tons of options and customization and a system where every battle hinges on clearing a convoluted tile-sliding system and think "these are basically the same thing"ImpAtom posted:OK has action commands too. but they are much less varied than in the earlier games you don't even pull back on the analog stick to use the hammer, even that much variation was too much
|
|
#
?
Jul 29, 2020 16:32
|
|
|
how are we defining "convoluted", for the record I won't deny there's less customization, sure (oh boy, you can equip iron boots and hurlhammers, along with variations of those and the regular boots and hammers at varying potency!) but the ring system is extremely simple. You either rotate a ring or slide it and those have really straightforward effects. Getting that to a solution where you can defeat every enemy in one turn is another question, sure, but I'm not sure I'd call the whole thing convoluted as a result.
|
|
#
?
Jul 29, 2020 17:11
|
|
|
Since like Chapter 3 the puzzles just feel like they've been getting way too visually confusing and obtuse for me. It's like a 50/50 chance when I hit an enemy whether I'll get a baby-easy puzzle that I've already solved a hundred times or some unholy vomit of 20 enemies scattered everywhere. I get that the game has to have a difficulty curve but I guess it just shows I never really liked this combat system to begin with, I just tolerated it because it was easy enough in the early levels that it didn't bother me that much. I love everything surrounding the combat, I even like the boss battles, but as soon as I get into a battle I just feel resigned. I miss how elegantly simple and satisfying battles were in the first two games and how the mechanical depth was there for people who wanted to pursue it. I guess I'm not allowed to feel that way though or else people will jump down my throat for being a TTYD fanboy. Augus fucked around with this message at 17:27 on Jul 29, 2020 |
|
#
?
Jul 29, 2020 17:24
|
|
|
If you’re having issues with the puzzles go to the battle lab and do The Ringer and Speed Rings. The Ringer will teach you solutions for lots of puzzles and lets you take as much time as you need to complete them. Speed Rings is basically a matter of memorizing a bunch of solutions and inputting them quickly. I promise doing these will greatly improve your ability to solve puzzles quickly.
|
|
#
?
Jul 29, 2020 17:33
|
|
|
The problem with the combat in this game is there is no depth to it at all, which is largely coming from a lack of character/party customization over it involving puzzles. As you progress through the game, the puzzles get harder in terms of the enemy layout configuration, but they never have more depth or customization to what you’re doing. Your abilities after solving the (identical puzzle type that never changes) are always static. You get upgrades to boots and hammers and items but it’s all just damage modifiers. There are no new skills ever the entire game. Someone is going to point out that the battles in jrpgs don’t change either, but what is changing is your party layouts and you get new skills etc. that cause the play of the battle to be different. The battles often become a toolbox to mess around with party and character builds. The result in terms of you deal damage to kill the enemy is the same, but the fact you do different things to reach that result absolutely matters. How many ring puzzles is “enough” at some point? I certainly felt that way after 100 of them, given they play out the same but are only different in terms of the difficulty to solve them. XP and a sense of progression matters too. I feel like the discussion of XP is often framed in terms of its necessary for battles to be engaging (the answer is no), but it should instead be framed as if it’s actually additive to a rpg game like this one to remove it (the answer is also no). In this game, after solving a puzzle I often found myself wishing I could just skip the next phase where I jump/hammer as appropriate. The battle was “won” at the puzzle portion and the later felt like a waste after a while. To some extent there was the “strategy” of using the appropriate resource, except this game has terrible feedback on whether a “shiny” or “flashy” move would do enough damage to kill whatever enemy beyond simple trial and error and guesswork. So that “strategy” aspect wasn’t fun and I would just use the strongest appropriate ability to ensure the kill and I found myself just wanting to skip all of it entirely at that point. Especially when they were 3 groups to go through.
|
|
#
?
Jul 29, 2020 17:35
|
|
|
this is also what the toads are for. when i encounter a puzzle that seems like a huge mess, i pay for one tier of cheering to get the first move. seeing what it is will both make the rest of the puzzle way simpler and also hint at what to do in furure situations like that. and also... you don't have to solve the puzzles. you can just do a good enough arrangement that you can take care of some of the enemies. taking a hit isn't the end of the world. i really do think the battle system is still very elegant and simple like what you liked about the originals, just in a very different way.
|
|
#
?
Jul 29, 2020 17:37
|
|
|
YggiDee posted:In ever boss fight I've been exclusively rotating the panels. It somehow just. Never occurred to me that I could slide them across. Oh my God, I'm at the Ice Vellumental, I've spent so much time making my own life harder.
|
|
#
?
Jul 29, 2020 18:41
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 29, 2024 09:53 |
|
|
So It Goes posted:The problem with the combat in this game is there is no depth to it at all, which is largely coming from a lack of character/party customization over it involving puzzles. I do agree with most of these criticisms. I don't find the combat engaging and wish I could just skip the jump/hammer part. They're not frequent or long enough to drag the excellent rest of the game down imo. I kind of disagree with the xp criticism though? This game has excellent non-combat sections and I definitely haven't thought that it needs more noise for me to track to determine if I kill the enemies in one hit or two hits, determined by how much xp I've accrued as opposed to the pre-set upgrades already there in the Heart Upgrades. A skill tree or more abilities would be GREAT, but that means an overhaul of this combat system in general; which I'd still be all for. If they weren't going to put that in I do think it's additive to not throw in levels because it's just number noise. I'm thinking back to games I played earlier this year: Final Fantasy VII Remake, Witcher 3, and God of War. Each had xp and level systems integrated in different ways, and after playing each of them I wondered if the level system was really necessary. It just added noise to the game and either might as well have not been there at all (FFVII) or made my experience worse because the player level interacted with the rest of the game in really obtuse and unfun ways, complicating my interactions with enemies in ways that felt counterintuitive and arbitrary (Witcher 3, God of War). Items, skills, and talent trees, sure, but absent those, xp and levels on their own aren't always satisfying. Tender Bender fucked around with this message at 19:28 on Jul 29, 2020 |
|
#
?
Jul 29, 2020 19:24
|
|
