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Just imagine: If bison weren't quite so ornery, the Pilgrims might've all died from buffalopox.
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Jul 27, 2020 12:31
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:Just imagine: If bison weren't quite so ornery, the Pilgrims might've all died from buffalopox. Most of the pilgrims died from Old World disease contracted on the crossing anyway
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Jul 27, 2020 12:45
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what diseases can chiuahahas breed when kept in close breeding stock is what I want to know
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Jul 27, 2020 14:36
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ThatBasqueGuy posted:what diseases can chiuahahas breed when kept in close breeding stock is what I want to know That humans can get? Dog bite septicema, bacterial gastroenteritis, staph infections, salmonella, leptospirosis, rabies, and a bunch of parasites...tapeworms, fleas, mites....
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Jul 27, 2020 15:06
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:Just imagine: If bison weren't quite so ornery, the Pilgrims might've all died from buffalopox. i've actually seen the opposite argument made, that what really wiped out the buffalo in the late 19th century wasn't excessive hunting but instead an epidemic disease spread by cattle
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Jul 27, 2020 17:59
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It looks like Buffalopox is an Indian Subcontinent thing, though?
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Jul 27, 2020 18:04
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Did the Huns just use all the gold they took from the Romans to buy stuff from the Romans?
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Jul 27, 2020 18:37
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Badger of Basra posted:Did the Huns just use all the gold they took from the Romans to buy stuff from the Romans? the huns specifically? More to buy the loyalty of various other barbarians to help them get more gold from the Romans. Then the barbarians used the gold to buy stuff from the Romans
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Jul 27, 2020 18:42
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Grand Fromage posted:It's thought syphilis comes from the Americas, but there's some debate about that. Otherwise not really, there weren't as many opportunities for diseases to emerge because Americans didn't have domestic animals in the same way as the old world. Syphilis spread all over the world quickly after American contact, so presumably if the Americans had their own smallpox that would have traveled too. This documentary claims there were European cases before 1492. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2bWNF_eNwvI
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Jul 27, 2020 20:21
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Schadenboner posted:It looks like Buffalopox is an Indian Subcontinent thing, though? The American Bison, despite being almost universally called a "Buffalo", is not a buffalo. The Bison is no more related to them than it is a dairy cow or an Antelope. Those Water Buffalo in India are a completely different species and are one of those domesticatable species that cause plagues I mentioned. Diseases from Bison never became a plague because the species is so cantankerous and aggressive that it can't be domesticated. There are in fact variants of the Old World plagues in Bison populations, but because they couldn't be domesticated those diseases never had the time or proximity to humans to evolve into horrible plagues like Pox and TB did in Old World Bovines.
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Jul 27, 2020 23:18
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Squalid posted:i've actually seen the opposite argument made, that what really wiped out the buffalo in the late 19th century wasn't excessive hunting but instead an epidemic disease spread by cattle
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Jul 27, 2020 23:43
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galagazombie posted:Diseases from Bison never became a plague because the species is so cantankerous and aggressive that it can't be domesticated. Kind of mind blowing when you consider what colossal assholes water buffalo are
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Jul 28, 2020 00:51
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Nessus posted:In the sense of finishing them off or in the sense of having happened shortly beforehand? Like if a disease killed half the buffalo they're probably going to bounce back, and at worst it would be a lean time for people who hunt them for a living; but if a disease killed half the buffalo AND THEN the white man starts massacring them, you have a problem! in the sense that the effect of increased hunting on their population is negligible by comparison. Long term the effect of closing the open range was also severe. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brucellosis#History quote:Brucellosis was originally imported to North America with non-native domestic cattle (Bos taurus), which transmitted the disease to wild bison (Bison bison) and elk (Cervus canadensis). No records exist of brucellosis in ungulates native to America until the early 19th century.[32] this wiki article doesn't get into any details but it probably wouldn't be too hard for me to find them
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Jul 28, 2020 04:39
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Schadenboner posted:It looks like Buffalopox is an Indian Subcontinent thing, though? Bison aren’t buffalo, but we call them buffalo.
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Jul 28, 2020 04:43
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skasion posted:Kind of mind blowing when you consider what colossal assholes water buffalo are "Aggression" is all relative. Plus theres also the matter of the physical characteristics of the prospective domesticee. It's hard to overstate just how absolutely massive Bison are. Trying to fence one in will just lead to the fence being smashed apart and everyone nearby dead. And other animals in the Americas couldn't really be domesticated for similar reasons. You can't domesticate deer because they can jump over any fence you make. Really the central question for most domestication is "Can I trap it in a fence?" If not you're poo poo outta luck.
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Jul 28, 2020 06:10
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How do modern farmers keep bison from leaving their range anyway?
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Jul 28, 2020 06:20
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Terrible Opinions posted:How do modern farmers keep bison from leaving their range anyway? Heavy-duty knotted steel wire fencing, or steel pipe fencing. An angry bison will go straight through a steel net and they can dent pipe fencing, so it's key to not have them near people or vehicles that could provoke a charge. Also, farmers sometimes raise hybrids that are more cattle than bison; the cattle genes make them more docile, and bison genes give them resilience to cold weather.
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Jul 28, 2020 06:36
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Thanks, I was always curious about that. Glad for it cause they're tasty animals.
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Jul 28, 2020 06:43
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Squalid posted:i've actually seen the opposite argument made, that what really wiped out the buffalo in the late 19th century wasn't excessive hunting but instead an epidemic disease spread by cattle Schadenboner posted:It looks like Buffalopox is an Indian Subcontinent thing, though? You're overthinking a throwaway joke about what could've happened if Native Americans had domesticated the bison (AKA buffalo).
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Jul 28, 2020 08:59
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All living bison are beefalo genetically. The population bottleneck was pretty extreme.
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Jul 28, 2020 11:14
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I thought there was actually a cowpox-alike in bison or something but apparently it was  ?
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Jul 28, 2020 14:08
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galagazombie posted:It's hard to overstate just how absolutely massive Bison are. They are extremely cool and I recommend seeing them in person if you get the chance. If you saw a moose and thought it was bigger than you imagined, the bison is like, "oh gently caress, this is the one megafauna we didn't finish off." Also these motherfuckers used to travel in herds so large that they'd show up at dawn and still be passing when the sun went down. I'd read stories of white settlers being loving terrified when they saw a bison herd passing and it makes a lot more sense having seen just a small handful of them together.
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Jul 28, 2020 15:10
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:They are extremely cool and I recommend seeing them in person if you get the chance. If you saw a moose and thought it was bigger than you imagined, the bison is like, "oh gently caress, this is the one megafauna we didn't finish off." Makes you really wonder how amazing the fauna was around the time the first humans started arriving.
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Jul 28, 2020 17:50
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Yeah I wish theu would hurry up and start cloning mammoths so we could have mammoth ribs on the menu.
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Jul 28, 2020 17:56
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galagazombie posted:The American Bison, despite being almost universally called a "Buffalo", is not a buffalo. The Bison is no more related to them than it is a dairy cow or an Antelope.
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Jul 28, 2020 19:06
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galagazombie posted:That's my point. I'm saying the ability to do that just wasn't there, and without disease killing everyone those adventurers would have absolutely needed an actual army to subdue anyone. Indeed no state at that point could wage a war like that across the ocean. All of the native allies who helped the Spanish, lets use the Tlaxcala for instance, without losing their entire populations to disease would have just turned around and strengthened their own states/empires. When the Aztec Empire fell (which given how they ran things would have happened with or without the Spanish) it would have just been replaced with a Tlaxcala or similar led polity. With a population nearly nine times larger I seriously doubt the native elite would have been accepted being second fiddle to some minuscule group of conquistadores. The Portuguese went on a similar pillaging spree in the Indian Ocean and that was without any help from smallpox. It seems being a second fiddle to some dude in Europe is better than being a second fiddle to your neighbour. EDIT: gently caress, I really ought to do better job checking timestamps. Gladi fucked around with this message at 19:45 on Jul 28, 2020 |
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Jul 28, 2020 19:39
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Gladi posted:The Portuguese went on a similar pillaging spree in the Indian Ocean and that was without any help from smallpox. It seems being a second fiddle to some dude in Europe is better than being a second fiddle to your neighbour. The Portuguese did not conquer the major polities of the Indian Ocean, they just seized singular cities and then defended them using fortifications and naval superiority. When dealing with major powers like Ming China or the Mughal Empire, they had to beg for land and got thrown out if they were unruly.
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Jul 28, 2020 19:54
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Fly Molo posted:I'd say that in both time periods, it doesn't really matter. Whether a politician aids the poor out of pragmatic self-interest or genuine compassion, that's almost always a good thing, whether we're talking lives saved or general societal stability. In either era, a society without teaming masses of starving, desperate people is generally more stable, more healthy, and less prone to horrifying civil wars. Yeah Intent is entirely meaningless as it only exists within a single person's mind. Doing the right thing for the wrong reasons is identical to doing the right thing for the right reasons. E: oops quoted a now ancient post. Clumsy yet thread relevant. FreudianSlippers fucked around with this message at 00:30 on Jul 29, 2020 |
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Jul 29, 2020 00:27
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Arglebargle III posted:All living bison are beefalo genetically. The population bottleneck was pretty extreme. I hope time travel gets invented quick so I can eat some actual buffalo steaks In my imagination, all buffalo killed and skinned and left to rot on the Plains by ruthless 19th century hunters were immediately skeletonized by time travellers sending meat to the future without altering the timeline
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Jul 29, 2020 04:49
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you can go online and arrange the purchase of buffalo steaks this very moment
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Jul 29, 2020 05:19
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Arglebargle III posted:All living bison are beefalo genetically. The population bottleneck was pretty extreme.
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Jul 29, 2020 05:42
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Unfortunately the study on it doesn't seem to have any hard numbers, but isn't the amount of cattle dna very small due to how hard it was to consistently get fertile bison cow hybrids?
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Jul 29, 2020 05:50
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Terrible Opinions posted:Unfortunately the study on it doesn't seem to have any hard numbers, but isn't the amount of cattle dna very small due to how hard it was to consistently get fertile bison cow hybrids? The bison being raised for meat now have, I believe, some cattle genes in there but are functionally bison. The value in these "pure" herds is partly conservation and partly insurance; they sent some animals over to a park in Russia to establish a population there, as both an ecological substitute for the steppe bison and in case super-brucellosis decimates the north American herd. e: Yeah these are all using mitochondrial DNA studies so they ignore any male input.
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Jul 29, 2020 05:59
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E: no
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Jul 29, 2020 06:19
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Nessus posted:e: Yeah these are all using mitochondrial DNA studies so they ignore any male input. hell, same
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Jul 29, 2020 08:53
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Weren't the huge buffalo herds due to the natives being killed by disease, removing the pressure keeping their populations in check
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Jul 29, 2020 17:14
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Terrible Opinions posted:Unfortunately the study on it doesn't seem to have any hard numbers, but isn't the amount of cattle dna very small due to how hard it was to consistently get fertile bison cow hybrids? Yeah, they are phenotypically identical as far as anyone knows.
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Jul 29, 2020 19:42
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packetmantis posted:hell, same lol, i get the reference
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Jul 29, 2020 21:30
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Technically this is post Rome but why didn't europeans make us of slaves in Europe after Rome fell? I know christians weren't allowed to be enslaved but surely the europeans could have raided muslims on the med just like the muslims did to them? Also, what was Portugal using them for that compelled them to bypass Morocco and kickstart colonization? Were they using slaves in mainland Portugal?
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Jul 29, 2020 22:42
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:Technically this is post Rome but why didn't europeans make us of slaves in Europe after Rome fell? I know christians weren't allowed to be enslaved but surely the europeans could have raided muslims on the med just like the muslims did to them? Spain and Portugal did use enslaved labor when they could get it. What really drives the demand is plantation style agriculture that emerges in their trans-Atlantic possessions. But what drove Portuguese exploration was not really the quest for slaves. What drove it was finding ways around the Muslim control of the West African gold trade and the Italian controlled markets in the eastern Mediterranean. The slave trade is a "happy" accident that comes after they start acquiring territories suitable for sugar cultivation.
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Jul 29, 2020 22:52
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.