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fridge corn posted:Care to provide some examples? Ask JollyBoyJohn by what they meant by that specifically but it's a lot of videogames, basically any RPG or thing with a story with a beginning middle and end type poo poo. It's easy to poo poo on the quality of writing in video games generally, that's totally fair and I agree. There's often huge dissonance between writers and gameplay, seems like a nightmare to write for a game without also having creative control or direction to flow outward from what is written. Tomb Raider always comes to mind, the writer having to try and develop characters and a story, but the gameplay and combat and action sequences had basically already been set in stone, so she had to try and weasel an emotional story that would be immediately and constantly be undercut by both needlessly gruesome death cutscenes and combat sections where you just mow down a bunch of people trying to kill you. anyway, these are more like a movie or book in that there is a story being told, good writing or not, and there's a point where you complete the intended story and experience.
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Aug 1, 2020 20:38
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Khanstant posted:Tomb Raider always comes to mind, the writer having to try and develop characters and a story, but the gameplay and combat and action sequences had basically already been set in stone
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Aug 1, 2020 20:44
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Khanstant posted:Tomb Raider always comes to mind, the writer having to try and develop characters and a story, but the gameplay and combat and action sequences had basically already been set in stone, so she had to try and weasel an emotional story that would be immediately and constantly be undercut by both needlessly gruesome death cutscenes and combat sections where you just mow down a bunch of people trying to kill you. How is this scene still the go to example of ludonarrative dissonance when it's literally the opposite? The whole point of that scene was to show Lara accepting that she was going to have to murder a whole lot of people if she was going to survive.
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Aug 1, 2020 21:54
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fridge corn posted:Care to provide some examples? There's basically a continuum from games where you just interact with the mechanics to games that are so entirely about telling you a story that it's not possible to be bad at them. If we have to name them, one end is "skill games" and the other is "interactive fiction". A related split is between games with independent sessions (like bowling) and games where a single pass through is enough to say you've finished it (like a book). That gives us four categories and a lot of unresolved corner cases: Skill games with independent sessions: pong and fruit ninja, but also multiplayer FPSes and FTL and Mario and tower defenses. Skill games with one long pass: God of War and Uncharted and COD and other singleplayer fighter/brawler/survivor games, RPGs like Final Fantasy - or Pillars of Eternity, some long story-heavy platformers, later Zelda games Interactive fiction with independent sessions: kind of rare, I guess - Princess maker, Disco Elysium, that sort of "try again and get a different outcome" game? Interactive fiction, single pass: Point and click adventures and interactive movies, from Monkey Island to Phantasmagoria. RPG games with very easy gameplay, not that I can think of any? Obviously this doesn't fit everything - like games where one session is long enough that you have to save and come back, but you expect to do more than one (civilization, diablo, cities skylines) - and it ignores how some games are played in sessions but has permanent unlocks/upgrades. Still, it seems like a rough but useful way to be a bit more concrete when trying to talk about this? As for "only the skill /short session games have any value", that obviously edgelord trolling. Game plots may not be great literature, but neither is a lot of the books people read or the movies they watch. It's entertainment, and can be fine for that purpose. Computer viking fucked around with this message at 04:16 on Aug 2, 2020 |
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Aug 2, 2020 04:13
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There are perhaps four types of games: EA Sports NFL Head Coach (2006), and three others that I cannot think of examples for. I hope this settles the matter
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Aug 2, 2020 04:32
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another one is Bubble Bobble
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Aug 2, 2020 05:51
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mega man 3 is better than mega man 2 by almost any conceivable metric and ill never understand why 2 is held in such especially high regard
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Aug 2, 2020 06:01
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it's because of the music in flashman's level
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Aug 2, 2020 06:05
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food court bailiff posted:mega man 3 is better than mega man 2 by almost any conceivable metric and ill never understand why 2 is held in such especially high regard It's the first good game in the series.
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Aug 2, 2020 06:08
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Breetai posted:It's the first good game in the series. Yeah it's this, the first one sucks but megaman 2 was insanely good for its time. 3 was probably better but to be honest I don't remember a single thing about it despite having played it a lot as a kid, so apparently 3 is less memorable to me because I can remember all sorts of things about 2. Maybe 2 is more memorable just because it was so groundbreaking at the time
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Aug 2, 2020 06:24
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for some reason, 3's controls are a little less responsive than the first two games. it's hard to tap/nudge move, and switching facing directions also feels loose and delayed, sometimes dropping your input. every NES game that came after it has that same fluidity as 2, but 3's controls feel really crappy after its predecessor.
Fur20 fucked around with this message at 06:33 on Aug 2, 2020 |
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Aug 2, 2020 06:30
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food court bailiff posted:mega man 3 is better than mega man 2 by almost any conceivable metric and ill never understand why 2 is held in such especially high regard yeah totally, megaman 3 is the peak i also like megaman 1
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Aug 2, 2020 07:19
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The White Dragon posted:for some reason, 3's controls are a little less responsive than the first two games. it's hard to tap/nudge move, and switching facing directions also feels loose and delayed, sometimes dropping your input. every NES game that came after it has that same fluidity as 2, but 3's controls feel really crappy after its predecessor. no offense but if you think 3 controls looser than 1 you have not played either in an extremely long time
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Aug 2, 2020 07:35
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Aren't all the NES Mega Men the same engine?
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Aug 2, 2020 07:36
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Where the gently caress is Chromehounds 2? Sick of this poo poo
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Aug 2, 2020 07:39
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I tried Hollowknight but the monochrome aesthetic is bland, the combat is stiff and repetitive, and the animations are bad (try striking an enemy while walking forward, does that animation look good to you?). I've played and enjoyed supposedly shittier metroidvanias but I couldn't bother continuing this one after the green vegetation area. In my opinion Hollowknight is way overhyped because of the 2d dark souls meme.
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Aug 2, 2020 07:40
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food court bailiff posted:no offense but if you think 3 controls looser than 1 you have not played either in an extremely long time well ok mega man 1 had crappy controls too but 3 isn't so much a matter of looseness as it feels like it simply refuses to detect short taps on the d-pad half the time Ghost Leviathan posted:Aren't all the NES Mega Men the same engine? yes and no, it evolved slowly over time. i couldn't tell you if it was rewritten from scratch every iteration but every game is just a little distinct in the way it controls.
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Aug 2, 2020 07:57
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is pepsi ok posted:How is this scene still the go to example of ludonarrative dissonance when it's literally the opposite? The whole point of that scene was to show Lara accepting that she was going to have to murder a whole lot of people if she was going to survive. It wasn't a scene it was the whole game, they punctuated shooting sequences throughout. Then there's also a whole level where you trudge through some corpse and blood river to a cave littered with gore with "fun" challenges to do like scour the place for bags of corpses to burn. Contriving a reason for the protagonist to murder a whole bunch of people is often going to fundamentally undercut a lot of potential angles for a story or character to go. hands kind of tied i guess since the original "tomb raider" was a british lady dual wielding pistols with motorcycle gloves and sunglasses
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Aug 2, 2020 08:00
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I never played or heard much about Spec Ops: The line Is it worth playing? It came out a while ago... If it's not worth playing; can someone explain why people gave a poo poo about it? What was the deal
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Aug 2, 2020 08:00
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Hollow knight is ok
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Aug 2, 2020 08:06
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Khanstant posted:Contriving a reason for the protagonist to murder a whole bunch of people is often going to fundamentally undercut a lot of potential angles for a story or character to go. hands kind of tied i guess since the original "tomb raider" was a british lady dual wielding pistols with motorcycle gloves and sunglasses now, i never get very far in the old tomb raider games, but iirc for all of lara's gun kata flourish they didn't really have a lot of combat. you'd see wild animals or dinosaurs here and there, and then you got some human bosses who would shoot at you and you wanted to save your big guns for them, but at the end of the day the guns actually were for defending yourself and you spent most of the time swimming and climbing and finding hidden poo poo. nathan drake shooting a hundred thousand guys, well. i got nothin
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Aug 2, 2020 08:10
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it was more novel when it was new, not worth playing today but maybe worth reading about. I haven't played it, always meant to and tried to avoid spoilers but that's not really been possible. AFAIK: It's a mediocre shooting game with a twist at some point the game makes you re-examine why you're going around killing people or you kill a bunch of civilians and the game is like "hmm dont u think maybe bad?" and then you go do more violence and then it turns out the big bad guy was actually just in your mind and u were trying to justify this horrible poo poo and u can choose to kill yourself or surrender or keep being a murder psycho. the coolest thing about it was one of the main devs said that a valid way to beat the game was to put the controller down and stop playing
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Aug 2, 2020 08:12
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megaman 3 on the gameboy is flawed when compared to the nes versions but its still a really impressive game
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Aug 2, 2020 08:13
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Zzulu posted:I never played or heard much about Spec Ops: The line 
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Aug 2, 2020 08:22
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The White Dragon posted:now, i never get very far in the old tomb raider games, but iirc for all of lara's gun kata flourish they didn't really have a lot of combat. you'd see wild animals or dinosaurs here and there, and then you got some human bosses who would shoot at you and you wanted to save your big guns for them, but at the end of the day the guns actually were for defending yourself and you spent most of the time swimming and climbing and finding hidden poo poo. The early Tomb Raiders were considered more like og Prince of Persia in being cinematic platformers where characters controlled more like real people and used guns instead of Goomba stomps or spinning, really. The reboot doesn't understand this and just turns it into action with minigames.
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Aug 2, 2020 08:45
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Spec ops has a neat setting.
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Aug 2, 2020 09:22
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people always use the word "subpar" to describe video game writing because its makes them sound more sophisticated than just saying "bad". its really funny.
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Aug 2, 2020 09:32
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Zzulu posted:I never played or heard much about Spec Ops: The line It's a solid competent fps with decent gameplay, excellent voicework and some nice visuals, and you should play it. It also does some reasonably clever things with narrative and perception. It's not very long. Just play it imo. E: a lot of people will say it's mediocre as a game but never explain why. I disagree, it's a little above average for that time imo sebmojo fucked around with this message at 10:41 on Aug 2, 2020 |
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Aug 2, 2020 10:39
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Also if you play it right the last line spoken has the best single line reading in gaming.
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Aug 2, 2020 10:42
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Been years since I played it, but was it "Welcome to Dubai"? E: the right way to play was to withdraw after first contact like you were ordered 
tight aspirations fucked around with this message at 10:59 on Aug 2, 2020 |
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Aug 2, 2020 10:46
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It's nice having a game set in the Middle East where you shoot mostly Americanssebmojo posted:It's a solid competent fps with decent gameplay, excellent voicework and some nice visuals, and you should play it. It also does some reasonably clever things with narrative and perception. It's not very long. Just play it imo. Ruffian Price fucked around with this message at 11:12 on Aug 2, 2020 |
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Aug 2, 2020 11:10
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Zzulu posted:I never played or heard much about Spec Ops: The line I still have a copy in my inventory. Dunno if gifting that way still works, but you can have it. PM me your steam
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Aug 2, 2020 11:27
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tight aspirations posted:Been years since I played it, but was it "Welcome to Dubai"? yep  and you're right, of course! the orders really weren't complicated.
sebmojo fucked around with this message at 12:38 on Aug 2, 2020 |
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Aug 2, 2020 12:35
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I went into Spec Ops blind and enjoyed it. I think all single player AAA first/third person shooters are bland and not exactly a barrel of fun so in that regard it didn't feel very different from most of them. However unlike all other AAA fps/tps game the story was engaging enough that I wanted to keep going and find out how it ends. If you want something different, go for it.
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Aug 2, 2020 13:22
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I'm reminded of the alternate short ending to Far Cry 4. https://youtu.be/JnCed-hb53E
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Aug 2, 2020 13:27
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I think kind of the deal with Spec Ops The Line was that it was absolutely meant to be mistaken for a standard brown modern military shooter at the time, with the name, presentation and gameplay to go with it, and things like the white phosphorus section are presented like a setpiece minigame like a drone in Call of Duty until you're actually presented with the consequences. Even things like the geography of the missions making zero sense are probably easy to miss since it's not like serious shooters are much better in that regard, going from a subway station to a rooftop in seconds has precedent.
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Aug 2, 2020 13:31
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That's exactly how I experienced it and it was really impressive how it played out. Honestly I even pirated it because my expectations were super low and I needed something to do over a weekend while I had a sprained ankle.
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Aug 2, 2020 13:35
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Ghost Leviathan posted:I think kind of the deal with Spec Ops The Line was that it was absolutely meant to be mistaken for a standard brown modern military shooter at the time, with the name, presentation and gameplay to go with it, and things like the white phosphorus section are presented like a setpiece minigame like a drone in Call of Duty until you're actually presented with the consequences. This is why I have trouble straight up recommending this game and telling everyone to play it. It was absolutely best enjoyed during the deluge of mindless shooters set in the middle east, and I got it as a present from a family member who deliberately left out all the twists. I'm not sure how much I'd enjoy it if I played it for the first time now and with the whole thing spoiled. But I totally disagree with the few people who always pop up to say it's a garbage game with a garbage message. Some people get instinctively mad at a video game trying to have a clever story and feel the need to make sure everyone knows that it is in fact, not clever and that no video game ever will be.
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Aug 2, 2020 13:41
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If you motherfuckers start talking about Ludonarrative Dissonance again im gonna kill 1000 goons.
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Aug 2, 2020 14:08
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Is that when you can't figure out why Professor Plum would have killed Miss Scarlet? Oh, sorry, that's Cluedonarrative Dissonance 
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Aug 2, 2020 14:10
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