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BisonDollah posted:What can you really say about Ridley Scott in the context of a horror director competition except he shouldn't really be here? Yet Alien: Covenant is serviceable horror sci-fi and Home Sick was a creative turd. I'd be considering to keep Adam Wingard going for the new movies and good chat but we lost Soavi in the first round so gently caress it I'm voting for the boring big ham sandwich with the slightly better movie. I mean, we lost Soavi in the first round but he fell to Sam Raimi, who while he's long branched out beyond horror nevertheless made a massive impact on the genre through a trilogy of movies that, for whatever metric it's worth, won the Franchise tournament. I think of Sam Raimi as a Horror Director even when he's done superhero flicks, westerns, and that Oz sequel. Ridley Scott however, I agree, doesn't feel much like a horror director. For one thing, I never get the sense that he's interested in standard horror themes -- he's much more theologic in his approach and his Alien films are very preoccupied with that. It's not that Alien isn't definitively a horror franchise, it's just that it feels like it's less interested in being a genre film than it is in being a philosophical film (that also is fun as hell). His one non-Alien film in competition is fuckin' Hannibal. I think it's part of why I'm partial to Wingard here though, even if we're just lining him up to be cannon fodder in Round 2. He's very much a horror director. And it's going on a case by case basis, but in this case that's where my heart is leading me. edit: At least Ridley Scott has more claim to being a horror director than Bong Joon-ho 
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Aug 4, 2020 17:49
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Shrecknet posted:
I like pat Willems but his complaints of prometheus are the same ones I roll my eyes at on these forums. Both are cool n good I like how enthusiastic he is for Covenant tho
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Aug 4, 2020 17:51
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TrixRabbi posted:
It pains me to hear people complain about my man BJH dunking on lesser directors. Every good movie is a horror movie at heart, and therefore every good director is a horror director. Tangentially related, after realizing The Quiet Family is not a remake but the original, I feel foolish and am going to change my vote to that movie. Tobe Hooper is a GOAT, but you must kill what you love, and let chaos reign.
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Aug 4, 2020 18:02
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Basebf555 posted:I too love David, but I also agree with the criticism that Covenant needed to choose more decisively between continuing his story and just being another Alien retread. Like, obviously Scott felt like we needed to have another ship with another crew venturing off into space and stumbling on space horrors but in the end that didn't really jive very well with David's story. Yeah. It reminds me of The League of Extraordinary Gentleman (comic, not the film) in which Alan Moore immediately wrote Sherlock Holmes out of the story. I'm a huge Holmes fan, but that was definitely the correct decision. Whenever you have a character that big you either have to revolve the entire tale around them, or just remove them entirely, there's no comfortable middle ground.
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Aug 4, 2020 18:02
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I really enjoyed Cure but not enough to knock off Yuzna and Combs. I don't really see how the two plots of Covenant make it a lesser story like yall did. MacheteZombie fucked around with this message at 18:14 on Aug 4, 2020 |
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Aug 4, 2020 18:08
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Alien:Covenant vs Home Sick Like everyone else, I'm torn. On the one hand, I found Alien:Covenant a bit lackluster - it's not the worst movie in the franchise, but it's far from the best. There's lots about the movie to admire: Production design is phenomenal, I love the Japanese imperialism inspired uniforms, I love Fassbender. There are two scenes (the beginning and the flute dialogues) that, in my opinion, are among the best sci-fi of the decade. But unfortunately none of the good parts of the movie have anything with horror. In fact, it made me feel a bit sick of the Giger aliens. I believe Scott is sick of them as well, but the studio wants them. He might have gotten away with not giving the fanboys what they wanted in the absolutely brilliant Prometheus, but I suppose he's getting older, he is angry and he has things to say and no time to alternate passion projects with crowd pleasers anymore. So in the end you have a really good, ponderous sci-fi/horror mood piece with stupid alien action shoed in. But you know what, I'm here for the good parts, to hell with the bad. Then it's up against a painfully amateurish and nonsensical but bonkers and gleeful student film. Clearly, absolutely nobody told Wingard what to do, even though they should have. People mentioned getting David Lynch vibes in some scenes, and I can see those arising entirely unintentional from the baffling acting and direction. I had a good time watching this, I would recommend it to every horror fan, but I can't in good conscience vote for this movie. But maybe I will, in bad conscience. I don't know.
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Aug 4, 2020 18:36
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TrixRabbi posted:I mean, we lost Soavi in the first round but he fell to Sam Raimi, who while he's long branched out beyond horror nevertheless made a massive impact on the genre through a trilogy of movies that, for whatever metric it's worth, won the Franchise tournament. I think of Sam Raimi as a Horror Director even when he's done superhero flicks, westerns, and that Oz sequel. Soavi got my vote because it was Raimi's worst film and we have already seen/talked Evil Dead to death in the last competition so it'd have been the most fun and healthy choice for the thread. Wingard would have got my vote for the same reasons but I guess my parameters have changed to "beep boop - just vote for the better film".
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Aug 4, 2020 18:42
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BisonDollah posted:Soavi got my vote because it was Raimi's worst film and we have already seen/talked Evil Dead to death in the last competition so it'd have been the most fun and healthy choice for the thread. That's legit. It's lame we never got to Cemetery Man, but I wonder if Raimi could go down on Drag Me to Hell (or are we counting The Gift in this one?) married but discreet posted:It pains me to hear people complain about my man BJH dunking on lesser directors. Every good movie is a horror movie at heart, and therefore every good director is a horror director. Look, I think Bong is a brilliant filmmaker and his movies are great. I just really don't consider the bulk of them to be of the horror genre.
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Aug 4, 2020 18:49
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It's really interesting watching people struggle to vote for a film they clearly enjoyed more just cause it's amateurish. DIY Horror is a rich tradition in this genre and I have no problem celebrating it, warts and all. Honestly, putting it up against an over-produced franchise sequel from a veteran director is really an interesting discussion.
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Aug 4, 2020 18:50
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The weird part of the evaluation is where you try to figure out how much the amateurish, half-baked feel of a movie like that is part of what makes it enjoyable to watch, i.e. whether you're enjoying the movie itself or just laughing at it. Like, I'd never say that Troll 2 is a better film than Alien Covenant but at the same time if you said you'd rather watch Troll 2 I'd understand why, even though I disagree. But it doesn't make it a better film. If you have a strong preference for that kind of DIY horror then a film like Covenant is gonna be at a major disadvantage because it's flaws are actually held against it, whereas you want to celebrate the flaws of the lower budget film as if they are a part of it's appeal. Which may be true and that's a legitimate way to vote but it's not the way I look at comparisons like this.
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Aug 4, 2020 19:06
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Lol the scene in home sick of them playing with guns.
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Aug 4, 2020 19:19
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I think that's my holdup because I really don't think I do lean towards DIY stuff. I'm a boring guy who likes polished Hollywood blockbusters. I'm the guy who says we're too mean to James Wan because his "style" will just be another thematic style in 20 years. I don't usually watch movies in the "so bad its good" way. But I still just enjoyed Home Sick more than Covenant. Still part of me wonders how much of that is me just having more interest in Wingard's movies than Scott's or being a contrarian dick and wanting to see seeds fall.
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Aug 4, 2020 19:23
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Visuals are just such a huge part of what makes films enjoyable for me, so it's hard for me to separate that out and say "well the cinematography and production design were excellent but the film bored me", because when you give me those things I really can't be bored.
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Aug 4, 2020 19:34
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Shrecknet posted:
I think this video just pushed me to Wingard. Not the video's fault, but everything that guy loves I dislike about Covenant. I don't care about androids and I don't really like nihilistic films that hate humanity. I actually though the characters in Covenant were all married just to be lazy about character development and give us cheap reasons to care about deaths without actually developing characters but the idea that it was done just to be cruel makes sense and I don't like it. And mostly I just think it reinforces my feeling that Covenant never wanted to be a horror film. Its Ridley Scott once again exploring a concept he finds very interesting of android existentialism and he just kind of had to add horror stuff to sell it. I'm not mad at him or saying its not a horror film or anything. I think Ridley Scott should be free to make as many films about androids questioning their own existence or place in the universe as long as he wants to. But I don't care about that and I enjoyed the bad horror movie that just wanted to be a good horror movie SO much. And yes, Home Sick is a very mean movie too, but I'm not sure its nihilistic. Maybe it is. Who knows what that movie is about? But Wingard was enjoying himself so I enjoyed myself. I think that's different from what Scott did there (or what Patrick convinced me Scott did there). STAC Goat fucked around with this message at 19:47 on Aug 4, 2020 |
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Aug 4, 2020 19:44
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TrixRabbi posted:It's really interesting watching people struggle to vote for a film they clearly enjoyed more just cause it's amateurish. DIY Horror is a rich tradition in this genre and I have no problem celebrating it, warts and all. I can't decide if, like Tim & Eric, Wingard saw what he was getting and capable of with his crew and production, and leaned into it for the bizarre aesthetic. There's plenty of evidence of this! Bill Mosely's float walk? The bizarre finger scene? The constant bizarre sense of humor? The gun scene? So, it's a little disingenuous to say that it's all bad, or that it's enjoyed ironically (like Troll 2) cuz we laud John Waters films for similar aesthetics (although Waters had better writing and clearer themes and ideas, which I admit does a lot). Half-baked is a good descriptor, because I think even if this movie completely nailed its premise, it would still have its bizarre dream logic, and probably a lot of the over-the-top performances. Like I said during the stream, there seems to be an intent with the aesthetic, that you see in Harmony Korine's Trash Humpers and Gummo. The editing even points to that. And, while the movie is strange, it still makes sense in it's weird way. It follows the premise established by Bill Mosely's Suitcase Man, with all its weird tangents pointing back to that. I haven't seen Covenant yet, so I can't really make that choice, but a few questions I'd ask myself as part of the grading, like "Which movie would I rather show my friends for a Spooky Night?" are kinda out the window with Home Sick. It's an interesting little film, and it's kinda weird how tame Wingard has become in comparison.
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Aug 4, 2020 19:47
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Also if Home Sick wins, I'm tweeting Adam Wingard that he beat Ridley Scott in a directors tournament with his student film.
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Aug 4, 2020 19:50
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Franchescanado posted:Also if Home Sick wins, I'm tweeting Adam Wingard that he beat Ridley Scott in a directors tournament with his student film. Lol that'd be awesome
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Aug 4, 2020 19:51
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MacheteZombie posted:Lol that'd be awesome If others are, like me, voting with the idea of "How did the director use Horror in their film? Was it an effective use of the genre?" Then, Wingard has a really good chance of winning. The funny thing about Ridley Scott that never gets mentioned is that he seemingly became a Bible thumper and that's made the final era of his career as a director lame and tame.
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Aug 4, 2020 19:53
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Basebf555 posted:Visuals are just such a huge part of what makes films enjoyable for me, so it's hard for me to separate that out and say "well the cinematography and production design were excellent but the film bored me", because when you give me those things I really can't be bored. Visuals are a big part for me too, but I much prefer arthouse, and DIY trash, over blockbusters. I don't like having my films mediated by the whims of studios, distributors, and other bullshit like that. It's a big part of why I love horror so much because it isn't afraid to be weird and niche, and push boundaries. It's like, sure these big-budget films look pretty, but what are they doing? Why build all of these big, amazing sets, and all of this great cinematography, if it does less for the human spirit than a scrungy decapitation in a student film?
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Aug 4, 2020 19:57
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I dunno about Bible thumperquote:In 2013, Ridley stated that he is an atheist. Although when asked by the BBC in a September 2014 interview if he believes in God, Scott replied: I'd argue he got meaner towards ideas of God (Prometheus), though he still has hope for mankind and what we can achieve (The Martian). E: removed something too presumptuous. MacheteZombie fucked around with this message at 20:06 on Aug 4, 2020 |
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Aug 4, 2020 19:59
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Franchescanado posted:The funny thing about Ridley Scott that never gets mentioned is that he seemingly became a Bible thumper and that's made the final era of his career as a director lame and tame.
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Aug 4, 2020 20:01
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I think you can look at Prometheus/Covenant and see a guy lashing out at the universe for not providing the answers. And I wouldn't want to assume his brother's death was a factor in that but I wouldn't discount it either.
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Aug 4, 2020 20:04
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Basebf555 posted:I think you can look at Prometheus/Covenant and see a guy lashing out at the universe for not providing the answers. And I wouldn't want to assume his brother's death was a factor in that but I wouldn't discount it either. Thats fair. Gunna edit out that small bit of my post.
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Aug 4, 2020 20:05
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It was partially based one me misremembering/misattributing films to him. I thought he had directed more Bible epics besides Exodus, and I thought he had a hand in producing one of those failed Bible Epic TV shows that were "popular" a few years ago. Arkhams Razor posted:I legitimately have no idea how you could reach that conclusion about his post-Prometheus work unless you haven't watched them. If anything, he's spent most of the period not so subtly cribbing from Cormac McCarthy. I haven't. Robin Hood sucked. I missed Prometheus. Exodus looked dumb. I hated the novel The Martian so I will never watch that movie. I normally wouldn't watch Alien Covenant since I haven't seen Prometheus and most debates make it sound like a waste of time. I'm admittedly not a Ridley Scott fan. I love Alien, I like Thelma & Louise. I don't like Legend. The rest of his movies I haven't seen (Gladiator, Hannibal, Matchstick Men) all of, or I don't care to revisit (G.I. Jane).  edit: The Last Duel looks stupid.
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Aug 4, 2020 20:34
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drat, breaking my heart buddy. He's one of my favorites. We still cool tho.
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Aug 4, 2020 20:36
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MacheteZombie posted:drat, breaking my heart buddy. He's one of my favorites.  I plan to watch Blade Runner one of these days, and Black Rain, and White Squall. And I'm going to give Hannibal a chance! I'm sure Gladiator is as good as everyone says it is, so I'll watch it all the way someday. Legend looks good, and Tim Curry's devil kicks rear end, but that movie just does not work for me.
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Aug 4, 2020 20:39
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I think Hannibal is one of his worst tbh. The scene where Hannibal kills Pazzi is badass though. Fwiw, I don't think he's a perfect director by any means. I haven't seen The Counselor or For All the Money in the World as they looked bad.
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Aug 4, 2020 20:55
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Do I think Adam Wingard is a better director than Ridley Scott? Not even close. Do I think Adam Wingard is more deserving of competing in a tournament of horror film directors than Ridley Scott? Yeah. Like, I find Scott's late period stuff to actually be really interesting. Even Covenant has interesting ideas it's exploring, though I still think he did it way better the first time around in Prometheus. But part of me, whether we're supposed to or not, is thinking about down the line and who I'd like to see more of in this tournament and I don't feel a great need to push Scott forward, especially on a film that is just middle of the road for me. I will take sloppy, cheap but ambitious and memorable over technically sufficient but lackluster every single day. None of that comes at it from an angle of "so bad it's good."
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Aug 4, 2020 21:04
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Franchescanado posted:
Good LORD, this person is our mod?
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Aug 4, 2020 22:31
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married but discreet posted:Good LORD, this person is our mod? 
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Aug 4, 2020 22:39
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TrixRabbi posted:Do I think Adam Wingard is a better director than Ridley Scott? Not even close. I enjoyed Home Sick as well, and not in the so bad its good way. Its neat seeing a young filmmaker just loving go for it since they have nothing to lose. That said, I think his attempt ended up as something that was alright for a one time watch whereas I've seen covenant a few times already. If this was say, Murder Party, I'd probably vote for it over Covenant.
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Aug 4, 2020 22:53
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married but discreet posted:Good LORD, this person is our mod? He was sent from Book Barn to infiltrate CineD and "fix" our sub. IM ON TO YOU #SOMETHINGQ #CINEDRECKONING
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Aug 4, 2020 22:54
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John Carpenter’s Prince of Darkness vs. Jack Arnold’s Revenge of the Creature I love Prince of Darkness. I love the very weird and rational and drat near Catholic nature of a bunch of priests going “whelp, we got a jar of evil in the basement… better call the local science department.” I dunno. It cracks me up and yet also feels like exactly how I imagine it would go and can’t really think of a better solution. I love Donald Pleasance, Peter Jason, and Victor Wong. I love the weird rear end and often times sleazy super 80s cast of grad students especially the bald tubby one and Dennis Dun. I’ll never understand Schrodinger’s Cat. I love the weird idea that Satan is a transdimensional energy trapped in a love lamp filled with primordial goo and Jesus was an alien who chased him around the stars. Now that I've seen a Quartermass film I love and get Carpenter's little homage to him as an inspiration. I love the typical Carpenter tension and the escalating nightmare as a totally normal reality slowly slips into dream logic and panic and madness. Its not my favorite Carpenter, its not the best Carpenter, its probably good it got drawn Rd 1 against weak competition. But I love Carpenter and I love Prince of Darkness. What to say about Revenge of the Creature? This film is best described in the words of the immortal Tom Servo, “the disorganized, short lived, badly botched, and thoroughly ineffectual Revenge of the Creature.” I have no idea what happened between Arnold’s original which I love and thinks holds up entirely and this terrible, terrible, terrible sequel but its such a worse movie by nearly every metric imaginable and I’ve already wasted too much time and energy watching it TWICE than to talk about it longer. I did really enjoy the MST3K episode now and now I’m half tempted to see if I can track down all the episodes and go through them on a watchlist or something. Wait, 217 episode?!?! Holy crap. Yeah, Prince of Darkness. I tried to give it a chance but it was never in question.
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Aug 4, 2020 23:46
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Poor Jack Arnold. He never stood a chance  MacheteZombie posted:I enjoyed Home Sick as well, and not in the so bad its good way. Its neat seeing a young filmmaker just loving go for it since they have nothing to lose. That said, I think his attempt ended up as something that was alright for a one time watch whereas I've seen covenant a few times already. Murder Party no question, that movie's legit excellent.
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Aug 5, 2020 00:07
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STAC Goat posted:I have no idea what happened between Arnold’s original which I love and thinks holds up entirely and this terrible, terrible, terrible sequel... It's two old saws in genre filmmaking being used at the same time - one being the common idea of transposing something crazy and fantastical (read: expensive) into our "normal, everyday reality" (read: cheap) and seeing what happens, and also trying to utilize a real-world location as both promotional material and free or cheap shooting environment. The first has been used in dozens of movies set around fantastic worlds or children's properties, with entries as varied as the Dolph Lundgren Masters of the Universe to this year's Sonic the Hedgehog, the last movie to ever play in a theater. The second isn't exactly underseen in horror movies, either; Revenge of the Creature is a much a precursor to Universal's own later Jaws 3 (also in 3D!) than it is anything else. So yeah, RotC is very much what it seems - a cheapy cash-grab sequel churned out as quickly as possible to cash-in on consumer interest, about a crazy fish-man monster in a real world location this time (Marineland in Florida, though I forgot they called it something else in the film until just now when I looked it up to confirm that was how you spelled "Marineland"). They tried a little bit more than most, by trying to hold onto a lot of the same creative talent behind the scenes, but you can tell that Arnold's interest wasn't really there for this one.
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Aug 5, 2020 00:18
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The very first quickie cash grab franchise sequel in Hollywood is, arguably, Son of Kong
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Aug 5, 2020 00:19
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I was surprised by how charming Son of Kong was. The human segments were all complete trash of course, but it's clear that the animators still cared about making something with emotional weight.
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Aug 5, 2020 03:12
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STAC Goat posted:I did really enjoy the MST3K episode now and now I’m half tempted to see if I can track down all the episodes and go through them on a watchlist or something. Wait, 217 episode?!?! Holy crap. There's a ton of fun to be had since you can just sit along and watch these any time. The format didn't change but there was a gradual shift over time and everybody's favorite varies a lot (mine is Season 3). What I'd do is pick one episode from each season (you don't have to bother with season 1 since it was a tiny-market show at the time) in order to figure out which era you like, and then go with the whole season surrounding it, working outward from there if you want more.
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Aug 5, 2020 05:25
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Yeah, don't suffer through the KTMA era whatever you do. I'd say start watching with the introduction of TV's Frank, and go from there.
Debbie Does Dagon fucked around with this message at 06:07 on Aug 5, 2020 |
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Aug 5, 2020 05:57
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Alternatively, just pick movies you like/want to see and watch those. It's MST3K baby https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6-4ssFHryM As some one who HAS seen all of KTMA that you could possibly see, do not do that thing. There's a few season 1 episodes worth a watch but otherwise avoid
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Aug 5, 2020 05:59
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