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Juggernaut Star is a slave and is basically crushed into the mold of apocalyptic avenger, and in her pain she has learned to hate everything. But it isn't willful. This isn't what she'd be doing if it was her choice. It's misguided to consider her a 'hardcore enforcer' so much as another victim of oppression, forced to become a monster.
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Aug 4, 2020 23:22
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Walrus Pete posted:White Chain has a gender, which is what has long been causing other angels to scorn her. There's still no reason to believe she had a deep inner desire to be made of meat and blood and bone. White Chain loves the world, not the void. Humans, servants, and gods are beings of the world while angels and devils live under permanent exile in the void. It makes sense for White Chain to incarnate as visually human; even though I think the dichotomy I’ve drawn is part of the unfair and broken system that the protagonists are struggling against.
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Aug 4, 2020 23:24
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Reclaimer posted:Juggernaut Star is a slave and is basically crushed into the mold of apocalyptic avenger, and in her pain she has learned to hate everything. But it isn't willful. This isn't what she'd be doing if it was her choice. It's misguided to consider her a 'hardcore enforcer' so much as another victim of oppression, forced to become a monster. Juggernaut Star is a victim, but she's still probably going to need to get her rear end kicked.
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Aug 4, 2020 23:26
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wiegieman posted:Juggernaut Star is a victim, but she's still probably going to need to get her rear end kicked. Kicking her rear end is kind of old hat at this point, she's sort of become a jobber as far as nemeses go. Hopefully she comes around and throws off the yoke herself, the flame growing as White Chain shares it etc, but you might be right.
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Aug 4, 2020 23:33
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wiegieman posted:Juggernaut Star is a victim, but she's still probably going to need to get her rear end kicked. Isn't that what just happened?
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Aug 4, 2020 23:34
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Wouldn't Juggernaut Star hate to be referred to with feminine pronouns? Did I miss something?
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Aug 4, 2020 23:49
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Reclaimer posted:Juggernaut Star is a slave and is basically crushed into the mold of apocalyptic avenger, and in her pain she has learned to hate everything. But it isn't willful. This isn't what she'd be doing if it was her choice. It's misguided to consider her a 'hardcore enforcer' so much as another victim of oppression, forced to become a monster. I honestly think Juggernaut Star might end up being one of the first disciples of White Chain's new order. Maybe also Vigilant Gaze - he might not have the same complicated relationship with self-identity but he's certainly waxed lyrical about White Chain being a moral role model.
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Aug 4, 2020 23:51
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Begemot posted:Man I really love the theme in this story of world-building as an unreliable narrator. Its a pretty accurate depiction of how power and systems perpetuate themselves; not by stopping people from making different choices, but by obsucring the fact that there is a choice at all.
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Aug 5, 2020 00:33
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I don't expect Vigilant Gaze to become humanoid, because he's very comfortable being what he currently is, but I imagine he's going to support White Chain even if he doesn't feel the same desire to change the system that she does. I think 'older and more settled individual who nonetheless will support a more radical program because they see it as time for new ideas to be tried, or out of faith in the younger and more radical' is a good archetype, and not really one we see that often. It's good to be able to let other people take the lead, and advise them without trying to shape them, and that appears to be Vigilant Gaze's character development.
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Aug 5, 2020 00:38
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It wouldn’t surprise me if the old soul who just demonstrated immense power sacrifices himself to save the new miracle.
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Aug 5, 2020 01:12
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Rotten Red Rod posted:Isn't that what just happened? Vigilant Gaze just sort of ran her off. She and White Chain will probably have a serious, bloody knuckle fight in the void, which I guess is just the Angel version of hugging it out.
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Aug 5, 2020 01:24
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I can't help but think Kierkegaard's thought would be on par with being royal, specifically his ideas on the knight of faith, in contrast to knight of resignation, which to me echo White Chain's development from her past stonyarse to now. Part of me wants to breakdown the world mechanics of what we know so far of KB6D to assess whether what just happened should or should not be viable, because a cantankerous part of me won't accept wish fulfillment deus ex machinas on the basis of some idiot notion of true to life pessimism. The other part of me wants to tell my other self to gently caress off with that commoner/knight of resignation mentality, "Suffer for a good cause without expectation of reward? Well isn't that noble of you. You go ahead and pretend to be satisfied with your isolated suffering. I'm going to take up the good cause and get my deliciously just desserts." Adapting Kierkegaard to KB6D, I'm imagining the line of thought with WC to resignation of being an outlier inured to the hope of change, to thinking: "I believe nevertheless that I shall become her, in virtue, that is, of the absurd, in virtue of the fact that with YISUN all things are lies." Having just cautioned myself about not being obsessed with in-universe cosmology bullshit, I'm wondering whether WC's brush with Solly affects her white/black flame ratio, and how different her status is compared to other humans. I've been under the impression that humans were a black/white mix, but I don't think anything in the mythologies confirms this. Metia was said to have crawled from the ashes, while an old devil's tale claims human origins exclusively from the warm black flame.
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Aug 5, 2020 01:39
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Imo WC's transformation isn't going to turn out to be inherently a bad thing for her soul the way power was for the Demiurges because I trust Abbadon to not finish off a Transsexual allegory like that. But I also really disagree that that fact breaks the setting.
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Aug 5, 2020 02:13
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I think White Chain is now either a Literal God with both kinds of flame, because of kung-fu magic, or a unique human with an angel soul.
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Aug 5, 2020 02:25
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Shoehead posted:Imo WC's transformation isn't going to turn out to be inherently a bad thing for her soul the way power was for the Demiurges because I trust Abbadon to not finish off a Transsexual allegory like that. But I also really disagree that that fact breaks the setting. I'm pretty sure having every other angel but 10 vigilant gaze offended at her for being an abomination is gonna be downside enough
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Aug 5, 2020 02:29
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I feel like the petals probably wouldn't mind an angel living their best life as a human.
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Aug 5, 2020 02:39
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Even White Chain knows that safety comes first during these trying times 
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Aug 5, 2020 02:51
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Yesh posted:Even White Chain knows that safety comes first during these trying times
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Aug 5, 2020 03:07
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Shugojin posted:I'm pretty sure having every other angel but 10 vigilant gaze offended at her for being an abomination is gonna be downside enough those assholes were already offended by her, gently caress them, increment their numbers
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Aug 5, 2020 03:21
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pseudorandom name posted:those assholes were already offended by her, gently caress them, increment their numbers It's this. I mean there's a decent chance this starts an angel civil war, and I'm not sure White Chain's side is going to be having a great time of it.
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Aug 5, 2020 03:33
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Joe Slowboat posted:It's this. "Wish fulfillment" writing in the cliche sense generally just guts story development because it leaves nowhere to go with the relevant characters and plot have gotten what they desired consequence-free. Here White Chain getting her innermost desire fulfilled is going to cause a massive series of upsets; Solomon's gonna potentially lose his poo poo over having a new daughter, Jugg10/11's gonna scream "MISTAKE", and every single Angel's going to either come down on her hard as an abomination or worship her if she's actually stolen both flames to become a new god. If she has actually managed to become a god, then that's even worse; If she can do it by accident, the billions of people who're watching the fight across the universe can figure out the process for themselves and kick off a whole new flavour of war.
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Aug 5, 2020 04:25
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This probably means White Chain is off the hook for any deals made with 2 Michael and/or Metatron, right?
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Aug 5, 2020 04:30
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nimby posted:This probably means White Chain is off the hook for any deals made with 2 Michael and/or Metatron, right? There was never any magical power making her obey 2 Michael. He thought he was in charge and she thought he was in charge. He definitely still thinks he's in charge, and last time he hammered a nail into her head.
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Aug 5, 2020 04:43
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Neddy Seagoon posted:"Wish fulfillment" writing in the cliche sense generally just guts story development because it leaves nowhere to go with the relevant characters and plot have gotten what they desired consequence-free. Here White Chain getting her innermost desire fulfilled is going to cause a massive series of upsets; Solomon's gonna potentially lose his poo poo over having a new daughter, Jugg10/11's gonna scream "MISTAKE", and every single Angel's going to either come down on her hard as an abomination or worship her if she's actually stolen both flames to become a new god. I think 'new god' is just the thread getting ahead of itself. I don't think there's anything uniquely Black Flame about a human body other than mortality; Servants can be almost humanoid or humanoid and they're flesh with the Cool White Flame. White Chain is, however, likely to be a Cold White Flame in a fleshvessel, and that's something entirely new. Angels are going to be very violently split on that, and I mean violent literally. I'm really hype for the possibility (not prediction) of Angel Civil War battle scenes in the Void, with the Concordant Knights split down the middle and the Petals siding with Vigilant Gaze/White Chain, the Thorns siding with 2 Michael.
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Aug 5, 2020 05:51
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there's Jadis's whole prophecy about the heir being flanked by a white flame and a black flame, which suggests that either WC is still fundamentally a creature of white flame or else WC is not going to be in the picture for much longer (conveniently the comic just introduced a new angel tagalong, and there's nothing that says it has to be the same flame; the 108 followers have a lot of turnover, after all)
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Aug 5, 2020 06:05
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Straight White Shark posted:there's Jadis's whole prophecy about the heir being flanked by a white flame and a black flame, which suggests that either WC is still fundamentally a creature of white flame or else WC is not going to be in the picture for much longer (conveniently the comic just introduced a new angel tagalong, and there's nothing that says it has to be the same flame; the 108 followers have a lot of turnover, after all) The thing about prophecies is you need to read the original form to know what's actually being said. Jadis' prophecy came through an interpreter. (Abbadon actually nudges an inference to this in regards to Zoss picking Allison, I came across it in the wiki looking up the prophecy)
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Aug 5, 2020 06:22
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Wittgen posted:Wouldn't Juggernaut Star hate to be referred to with feminine pronouns? Did I miss something? I think Juggernaut Star was in denial about having feminine aspects underneath the big scary armor. The initial spikey flame form was as much a mask that slipped as the spikey armor itself, then we saw it both slip and reassemble during the conversation. Part of that mask would be denying the blatently obvious when someone sees what lies underneath, so to speak. Now as to why this is, we can probably blame some kind of edict Metatron through 2 Michael made about not changing and/or restoring the old ways, which probably means everyone gets a giant suit of armor and returns to standing still in neat rows for all eternity. Or something else equally unexciting. Agree with the others that Juggernaut Star will probably flip to the White Chain side at some point. Possibly via tragic means though so I'm cautiously hopeful about that potential.
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Aug 5, 2020 08:27
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DancingShade posted:Agree with the others that Juggernaut Star will probably flip to the White Chain side at some point. Possibly via tragic means though so I'm cautiously hopeful about that potential. Solomon David gives up his empire and follows his newfound passion: getting punched in the face by an assembly line of angels to make them flesh.
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Aug 5, 2020 09:09
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 Speculation: White Chain didn't draw blood here (in my opinion, actual blood drawing status still unclear). Under the most pedantic reading of the rules, the fight is still going on, nevermind that everyone that can even approach Salami's strength can see plain as day that WC just schooled him without even trying. Salami clearly realizes this, because he's no fool. However, Salami is also Salami and no loving way he accepts defeat gracefully. Not when WC just rejected everything he is without even trying. He'll invoke strict letter, blatantly break the spirit of his own laws in spectacular fashion, and try to do WC in with a fit of selfish rage. Where it goes from there, no clue, but I hope Allison and Cio manage to rescue Tonearse here. I think she's still an angel and that she can still come back from the void, but I'd not be willing to risk it right now. Oh, and I'm feeling very very happy about Salami having to eat his smugness raw.
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Aug 5, 2020 11:50
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Yeah I'm on board with thinking that her new body is still technically a vessel and she'll be able to reform in the void and keep her identity if she dies. No clue if she's able to easily re-form a new flesh body though.
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Aug 5, 2020 11:56
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I think she drew blood in a metaphorical sense by forming a body after literally passing through him. Like now her body is his own flesh and blood, somehow.
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Aug 5, 2020 12:05
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Thyrork posted:I clicked out for a few days and come back to see my homage to FFXIV being used as the title?
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Aug 5, 2020 12:06
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Demiurge4 posted:Yeah I'm on board with thinking that her new body is still technically a vessel and she'll be able to reform in the void and keep her identity if she dies. No clue if she's able to easily re-form a new flesh body though. I'm getting a feeling of "now this has happened once, it can happen again and again". Like Zoss entering Throne. Someone extraordinary blazes the trail, then other somewhat less extraordinary people can follow suit. Angels know now it is possible to form a vessel of flesh; those that want to try have some sort of reference for how to do it. White Chain's future incarnations counting among them, of course. Tenebrais fucked around with this message at 12:19 on Aug 5, 2020 |
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Aug 5, 2020 12:16
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Tenebrais posted:I'm getting a feeling of "now this has happened once, it can happen again and again". Like Zoss entering Throne. Someone extraordinary blazes the trail, then other somewhat less extraordinary people can follow suit. Angels know now it is possible to form a vessel of flesh; those that want to try have some sort of reference for how to do it. I kind of hope they don't. White Chain is the only angel we've seen that has a specifically human self-image. Maybe Juggs, too. The rest of the angels? If they start deciding to incarnate in the flesh the comic's going to turn into a spinoff of Andrew Hussie's old Humanimals comics.
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Aug 5, 2020 13:50
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Grouchio posted:Free the nipple yet cover the face. How cursed. Mask it or casket
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Aug 5, 2020 14:16
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It's really a mistake to think of what White Chain did as a mechanical process that might be replicated. Her body is the physical manifestation of a process of self discovery. It happened more because of who she is and what it represents rather than what exactly she did. That's also why suggesting she stole power or genetic material from Solomon David completely misses the point. Her shell, which confined her physically and metaphorically, was inlaid with merciless iron laws that she saw symbolized in Solomon David. Rejecting him was the same as rejecting her shell and the prescription of what an angel should be. Her new form represents her independence from the precepts that bound her, which again are embodied by Solomon David, so why in the world would this new form incorporate something from Salami Dave?
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Aug 5, 2020 14:47
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I think the diamond symbol on her forehead is a clear sign that WC's new form is connected to Solomon in some way (a new daughter?), but what exactly that implies is something we'll just have to wait to see. Like there are a lot of ways that connection could undercut WC's character arc, but I trust that Abbadon knows exactly what he's doing.
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Aug 5, 2020 15:00
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Dave isn't his key, only it's bearer. And White Chain being Black has nothing to do with SD either. Her angel form has consistently been coded that way.
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Aug 5, 2020 15:20
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Dr Subterfuge posted:And White Chain being Black has nothing to do with SD either. Her angel form has consistently been coded that way. I mean it could be both
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Aug 5, 2020 15:35
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Oh yeah it could be specifically connected to the key rather than Dave himself, that's a good point
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Aug 5, 2020 15:44
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