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Speaking of DFM again I always kind of sort of liked that system HAWX had, the one that wasn’t ASSISTANCE OFF. If you were having trouble following the pattern of an enemy plane or finding the right approach on a ground target in a tight space you could activate a series of gates you had to fly through and if you managed to reach the end it put you in the perfect position and timing for an attack. There was some flying assistance when going through the gates but you could still gently caress it up if you went too slow or missed a turn really badly. They also used it in a couple missions where you had to follow a long winding corridor of gates to get around AA defenses while they shot at you. It wasn’t a player driven mechanic at all, and I suspect using it to intercept AI planes changed the behavior they’d be using otherwise so it would always work, but it was actually kind of exciting at times. Basically instead of flying in circles, which you could absolutely still do of course, it mimicked the maneuvering you might do in “”””real”””” dogfight. DFM in AH worked way better those times you attacked ground targets or against the unreasonably well-defended battleship in that one mission and combining that with something like the navigation gates in HAWX could work well.
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Aug 5, 2020 21:21
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Kibayasu posted:DFM in AH worked way better those times you attacked ground targets that's probably because the ground attack mode wasn't DFM  ASM just maximized explosions per minute against ground targets and was therefore good.
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Aug 5, 2020 21:27
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Psion posted:that's probably because the ground attack mode wasn't DFM Yeah I know, same concept though.
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Aug 5, 2020 21:28
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Psion posted:every single one of those complaints except DFM applies to many other ace combat games. Particularly, oh, for example, 04. Extremely long timed missions with a large number of fodder enemies that ended up being boring bomb and strafe for points? Mobius 1 made their career on that. ac04 has obviously aged poorly, but that poo poo is all worse in asshor it doesn't help that there's literally zero mission variety, unless you count the horrible heli/bombing stuff
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Aug 6, 2020 02:45
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asshor
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Aug 6, 2020 03:39
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Psycho Landlord posted:asshor Mods please change the thread title to ASSHOR thank you
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Aug 6, 2020 03:49
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look i don't make this stuff up, its just the way it is
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Aug 6, 2020 04:00
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As much as it is a good game, playing through AC7 you do get a feel for the development issues that supposedly plagued it. The characterisation in the first four missions is piss-poor; and that's kind of expected since those are throwaway characters (which they didn't have to be; they could've shown up later*). The penal squadron and the first batch of LRSSG missions are fine, if somewhat disjointed, especially the first LRSSG missions. You start off with a statement about going on a long campaign along the north coast of Usea but the only two missions that seem relevant to that manoeuvre is the first one and the Cape Rainy assault. You get a long interruption in the middle for the Stonehenge defensive and the IRBM cluster missions and between them the campaign basically jumps across from one end of the continent to the other. There must have been an offensive happening at that time, but you never see it or really participate in it (AC7 seems to be generally lacking the large-scope mission where you support advancing ground troops which would fit really well in this point in the campaign; even Farbanti is a points threshold mission). The only part of the campaign that is to me expertly handled is Farbanti onward, where you get a real sense of confusion as to what's happening and what you're supposed to be doing. *I do not entirely mind this because it contributes to a kind of bleak, mature tone that I feel AC7 has over the previous games. Those guys aren't your friends, and they're kinda assholes, so whatever. You get to the penal unit, which is forcing civilians into the war, where the pilots' lives are already considered forfeit and where the AWACS intentionally gets one of them killed (and there's no big confrontation about that; you still get a mission under their command where you have to keep your commander alive, and the commander and the AWACS hate each other too). Once you're finally into the LRSSG it feels like you've managed to land at a good place. Then Farbanti happens, Labarthe dies, and you're left with no mission, and instead of going home... you continue participating in a war even without orders? And you pillage a small country so that you can keep doing it. It's stupid that the game tries to play it like "ah but Erusea micro-targeted only military targets so it's not like they started the war" is a semi-reasonable stance but it does do a good job at portraying the IUN/Osea as heartless bastards and definitely not the good guys.
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Aug 6, 2020 10:31
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Yeah i gave the least of a poo poo about 7's storyline compared to any of the others I've played. Most of that was because as soon as clown opened his mouth I instantly was looking for a chance to shoot him down or watch him get shot down and neither of those happen sadly. Atleast annoying character pj in zero got blasted infront of you. Also the cutscenes were having to spend too mcuh time explaining what lead to the entire war, and stuff like the f14s that shot at the space elevator being drone fighters or something being used by the belkans and slipped into your forces was only mentioned in a single throw away line and that would have been one of the most interesting parts of the series of events if they had paid any attention to it. But sure ignore the drone fighters who were able to handle responding on the radio well enough to make people think they were allied units so we can listen to a software engineer do some longwinded anime musing about the crazy old decrepit pilot who keeps trying to go to the front lines to see why drones are being shot down or his young teen granddaughters who were...there? A scene showing how the convict AWACS managed to get away with using members of his squad to kill a purposefully mislabelled friendly would have been way more interesting than ...i just realized the only cutscenes I remember are Avril getting shot down, working on your planes, talking to the anarchist lilot, and then the cutscene introducing the old guy and his granddaughters. There had to have been more than that right? I much more preferred the scenes in zero where you're seeing other people talk about the events you were seeing from a different perspective or in 6 how the tank crew was just looking to make their big score in the middle of a war to liberate their home and accidentally rescue their lincoln memorial analogue was amusing as hell. Hell I didnt care about anyone in 7 anywhere near as much as Chopper. He may have been annoying as hell but he was developed well. Oka Nieba was a more interesting side character in his 5 seconds of audio than foodwacs the entire half the game he's in. Atleast 7 didnt have one of those parade through the skies looking pretty missions like 5 and 6 did. I have minor gripes about how 7s gameplay is way easier through the baseline manueverability of everything being comparable to highend planes in 4,5, and 0 while the AI doesn't utilize it outside of Old Man One, or ammo capacity and survivability increases making ace easier than in those as well, but the big annoyance for me is how little 7's story drew me in. Stravag fucked around with this message at 11:05 on Aug 6, 2020 |
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Aug 6, 2020 10:51
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I had a general idea of how I would have changed up the plotline of 7 to make it "better". Turn mission 4 into mission 1, remove the infiltration part, and just make it Mage Squadron covering Harling evacuating the space elevator. He gets shot down, Trigger gets blamed and sent to 444, and we only have to see Clown and crew for one mission. Then rework the other missions into penal unit missions, or maybe add another LRSSG mission
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Aug 6, 2020 12:31
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Honestly the AC7 dlc is more memorable the main story lol I feel like if the game stuck with the PENAL COLONY through to the end, and developed those characters more, it would have had a better impact.
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Aug 6, 2020 13:31
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I know I said it kind of adds to the atmosphere the way it is, but I wouldn't have minded if Clown and co. got a bit stronger characterisation and showed up later in missions like Homeward and Lighthouse as secondary characters. Like maybe they were participating in the Tyler island operation and once you save their asses they show up in the large furball or are part of the operation to take down the Arsenal Bird.
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Aug 6, 2020 14:43
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YF-23 posted:I know I said it kind of adds to the atmosphere the way it is, but I wouldn't have minded if Clown and co. got a bit stronger characterisation and showed up later in missions like Homeward and Lighthouse as secondary characters. Like maybe they were participating in the Tyler island operation and once you save their asses they show up in the large furball or are part of the operation to take down the Arsenal Bird. I spent the entire game expecting that to happen and was mildly surprised they didn’t show back up at some point.
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Aug 6, 2020 15:06
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For 7, I wanted at least 1 more non-gimmicky air to air fight. No crazy drones, no motherships. Also, I really wish they had kept the same battle-feeling from 6.
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Aug 6, 2020 15:31
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YF-23 posted:I know I said it kind of adds to the atmosphere the way it is, but I wouldn't have minded if Clown and co. got a bit stronger characterisation and showed up later in missions like Homeward and Lighthouse as secondary characters. Like maybe they were participating in the Tyler island operation and once you save their asses they show up in the large furball or are part of the operation to take down the Arsenal Bird. That's a good idea. It wouldn't be a coincidence for the player character to meet former comrades in the line of duty. They could have a "Trigger! You're alive? Wow. Secret squirrel, too." moment over the radio. Make it feel organic to the whole situation. By the time you are released to the LRSSG you've gone through a few phases of your combat career. From it's infancy in the IUN being lead by a patriarch with a strong sense of purpose, betrayal and a hard-scrabble adolescence as prisoner Spare 15, to recognition as an equal among the best, even by your greatest opponent. Wrap it up by leading all your surviving squad mates at once and winning the war. Is this what it's like to not be able to shut up about anime? 'Cause I got more. AC 6 did pretty well with allies working with you on and off during a protracted period of time. They've each got their funny little soap operas going on. They get to trust you to the point that your presence increases their morale. It's a healthy working relationship. They can even destroy targets, putting out a ludicrous amount of fire at your command. Why the battleship needs orders to fire their cannons when that's the whole point of the ship I'll never know but the effect is still impressive. You even start caring about the little antman sitting in a radar vehicle towards the end, he is an ace after all. What I'm saying is every ally in AC8 should be anti-tank gun dad (henceforth ATGD) but he's suuuuuper late to a party. Navy ATGD draws his anti-tank sabre (that he brought from home) and exclaims, "Helmsman! Get me closer, I want to hit it with my sword!"
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Aug 6, 2020 16:02
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Beastie posted:For 7, I wanted at least 1 more non-gimmicky air to air fight. No crazy drones, no motherships. Same vein, but I wish they'd go back to the 5 and Zero format of the cut-scenes actually involving you and your immediate fellows. 6 and 7 make a mistake hopping around to all of the side characters, where only two of them have any kind of relation to the protagonist. I think 5 really worked because instead of seeing the Belkan who developed the SOLG musing about how it came to be, you're given the information piecemeal by the people around you. The POV character was Genette, sure, but he gets to play narrator and it's clear that the silent faceless protagonist is just off screen (or on screen, but his face is being blocked by Chopper's elbow ).Oh, and whoever suggest a mission where you play as the AWACS, whatever the mechanics are, it must include you struggling to eat a burger. madeintaipei posted:Is this what it's like to not be able to shut up about anime? quote:'Cause I got more. AC 6 did pretty well with allies working with you on and off during a protracted period of time. They've each got their funny little soap operas going on. They get to trust you to the point that your presence increases their morale. It's a healthy working relationship. They can even destroy targets, putting out a ludicrous amount of fire at your command. Why the battleship needs orders to fire their cannons when that's the whole point of the ship I'll never know but the effect is still impressive. You even start caring about the little antman sitting in a radar vehicle towards the end, he is an ace after all. From 30 miles away. In a storm. Still landed one of the two swings.
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Aug 6, 2020 16:16
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The lack of pure air to air with no drones really upset me. SP1 is so good.
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Aug 6, 2020 16:23
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They could have had one really good mission against non-drones if they put in a mission where you support the ground advance after Stonehenge Defensive and the loss of the first Arsenal Bird. Honestly this feels so natural to me as a way to connect the story that I'm seriously surprised that there wasn't one.
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Aug 6, 2020 16:26
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The big mountain peaks air battle in AC6 is fuckin great, we coulda used something like that. I also loved how AC6 would have one objective with a friendly ESM plane and if you completed it the plane would follow you and give you ESM for the other objectives.
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Aug 6, 2020 16:31
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AC6 is just straight up the best Ace Combat mission wise. I prefer the style of Zero, but goddamn, 6 just nailed that scale.
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Aug 6, 2020 16:49
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HerpicleOmnicron5 posted:AC6 is just straight up the best Ace Combat mission wise. I prefer the style of Zero, but goddamn, 6 just nailed that scale. AC6 was perfect mission wise, it really made you feel like you were part of that nations military instead of some lone squadron or solo pilot on your own. I really Wish AC7 had kept that scale and the operations system. I hope in the future for AC8 they bring it back
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Aug 6, 2020 17:02
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There's hints of AC6's scale in the latter parts of AC7 (farbanti in particular actually has a ton of poo poo going on if you actually stop to pay attention) but it's all completely divorced from gameplay and loses a ton of the impact. DLC 1 got kinda close though! (Please bring back the mass battle system for some missions in AC8 PA)
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Aug 6, 2020 17:12
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Psycho Landlord posted:There's hints of AC6's scale in the latter parts of AC7 (farbanti in particular actually has a ton of poo poo going on if you actually stop to pay attention) but it's all completely divorced from gameplay and loses a ton of the impact. DLC 1 got kinda close though! Yeah, Farbanti and Lighthouse are the only times 7 comes close to 6’s huge rear end scale. 6 was probably the best Ace Combat in terms of gameplay, I just wish the other elements of its package, like mission quantity, aircraft roster, and anime bullshit plot were as up to snuff with its technical achievements. Also the Aigaion mission from 6 is the single best mission Project Aces has ever produced and nothing has come close since to that apex.
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Aug 6, 2020 17:39
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Hace posted:Honestly the AC7 dlc is more memorable the main story lol The whole Harling situation would have more impact too if it happened with you as part of the LRSSG
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Aug 6, 2020 22:54
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YF-23 posted:*I do not entirely mind this because it contributes to a kind of bleak, mature tone that I feel AC7 has over the previous games. Those guys aren't your friends, and they're kinda assholes, so whatever. You get to the penal unit, which is forcing civilians into the war, where the pilots' lives are already considered forfeit and where the AWACS intentionally gets one of them killed (and there's no big confrontation about that; you still get a mission under their command where you have to keep your commander alive, and the commander and the AWACS hate each other too). Speaking of which, I really liked the implication that the prison commander's big promotion and new deployment to the frontlines because of his forged reports almost immediately will kill him.
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Aug 6, 2020 22:59
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RBA Starblade posted:Speaking of which, I really liked the implication that the prison commander's big promotion and new deployment to the frontlines because of his forged reports almost immediately will kill him. That and you have like a 5 second window in Transfer Orders to shoot his plane down and not only do you get 1000 points for it (something that never happens if you kill allied units), but also Bandog goes "lol, good riddance, rear end in a top hat!" when he dies.
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Aug 6, 2020 23:14
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nine-gear crow posted:That and you have like a 5 second window in Transfer Orders to shoot his plane down and not only do you get 1000 points for it (something that never happens if you kill allied units), but also Bandog goes "lol, good riddance, rear end in a top hat!" when he dies. Bandog and McKinsey had an interesting dynamic where they were both assholes who put no value on the lives of prisoners... But Bandog had an arc where he both came to care for the people he was working with (mainly Trigger), and it was more and more clear as the game went on that he cared about the mission more than his career prospects. He was an rear end in a top hat, but he wasn't just an rear end in a top hat, and when he offed Full Band, you could see his reasoning. Meanwhile, McKinsey was just an rear end in a top hat, and it was clear that Bandog hated him even more than the penal unit.
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Aug 6, 2020 23:28
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I also think it's a bit too easy to take Labarthe's telling of the story about Harling's assassination at face value; it is very possible that you would fire a missile in that scenario and I like that the game never really gives you a total confirmation that it wasn't you that killed Harling, just that Erusea had a plan in place to do it at the same time. It feels like, if Trigger is the kind of person that would participate in an operation like Lost Kingdom, that is a moral horizon crossed that's far greater than accidentally FFing the former president.
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Aug 6, 2020 23:30
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YF-23 posted:I also think it's a bit too easy to take Labarthe's telling of the story about Harling's assassination at face value; it is very possible that you would fire a missile in that scenario and I like that the game never really gives you a total confirmation that it wasn't you that killed Harling, just that Erusea had a plan in place to do it at the same time. It feels like, if Trigger is the kind of person that would participate in an operation like Lost Kingdom, that is a moral horizon crossed that's far greater than accidentally FFing the former president. I 100% shot down Harling and even watched the replay show me that I did lol
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Aug 6, 2020 23:32
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YF-23 posted:I also think it's a bit too easy to take Labarthe's telling of the story about Harling's assassination at face value; it is very possible that you would fire a missile in that scenario and I like that the game never really gives you a total confirmation that it wasn't you that killed Harling, just that Erusea had a plan in place to do it at the same time. It feels like, if Trigger is the kind of person that would participate in an operation like Lost Kingdom, that is a moral horizon crossed that's far greater than accidentally FFing the former president. And one of 7’s big stated themes is ambiguity and the disparity between perception and reality. So never finding out if Trigger really killed Harling or not and instead being given the choice to believe one way or the other is a feature, not a bug.
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Aug 6, 2020 23:43
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nine-gear crow posted:And one of 7’s big stated themes is ambiguity and the disparity between perception and reality. So never finding out if Trigger really killed Harling or not and instead being given the choice to believe one way or the other is a feature, not a bug. I did that mission guns only, I'm guiltless, check the missile counts!
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Aug 6, 2020 23:54
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Gaius Marius posted:I did that mission guns only, I'm guiltless, check the missile counts! SOLITARY!
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Aug 6, 2020 23:59
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Warmachine posted:
EFM (eating food mode)
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Aug 7, 2020 00:09
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nine-gear crow posted:And one of 7’s big stated themes is ambiguity and the disparity between perception and reality. So never finding out if Trigger really killed Harling or not and instead being given the choice to believe one way or the other is a feature, not a bug. When it comes to which one you think it is, I guess it's like a mirror. A mirror looking into your own soul.
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Aug 7, 2020 00:09
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YF-23 posted:When it comes to which one you think it is, I guess it's like a mirror. A mirror looking into your own soul. My mirror says I'm bad at aiming
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Aug 7, 2020 00:12
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RBA Starblade posted:My mirror says I'm bad at aiming My mirror says the MiG-21 came back with a full rack. 
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Aug 7, 2020 00:57
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I used the TLS, Harling was clearly shot by a missile. I don't know what you guys are talking about, Trigger's just the fall-guy for those bastards at high command.
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Aug 7, 2020 01:48
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By the end of 7 I didn't care. I killed a lot, even artificial intelligence died by my hand. I kinda lost count.
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Aug 7, 2020 01:56
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nine-gear crow posted:And one of 7’s big stated themes is ambiguity and the disparity between perception and reality. So never finding out if Trigger really killed Harling or not and instead being given the choice to believe one way or the other is a feature, not a bug.
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Aug 7, 2020 02:30
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The strength of 6 is that it introduces a cast of minor characters early and cycles through them. 7 should have done more of that with both friendlies (like the engineers who turn Stonehenge on) and villains (associate the Erusean cyber warfare/arsenal birds with a character!) 7 had some really great story stuff, but Avril should have been better utilized. The intro/trailer did a great job setting her up as a really powerful and important character but she basically just broods for 2/3 of the game. The Princess had the opposite problem, lots to do but wasn’t well established. She should have been taunting Osea on the radio in the first few missions. Use it to introduce Labarthe and some contrasting Erusean nationalist officers. I also really thought the DLC was going to tie up loose ends like Clown and Bandog, but no. The natural thing to do would be for Clown to have fallen in with the worst elements of the penal units and end up even more vicious than LRSSG in Lost Kingdom. Definitely would have expected a mission where you have to engage former comrades in the chaos. DOCTOR ZIMBARDO fucked around with this message at 02:41 on Aug 7, 2020 |
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Aug 7, 2020 02:38
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