|
treat posted:I've always used inverted but got really into playing DIY and unity games years ago where mouse options were rare. After a while I could switch on the fly and I was able to adjust by just looking around for a few seconds, so I was effectively... ambi-invertrous? I moved to uninverted full time eventually but I still invert any time I'm flying a plane or something just for the hell of it. idk if you play online shooters, but do you think it's made it easier for tracking players?
|
#
?
Aug 7, 2020 01:53
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 27, 2024 22:18 |
|
|
hambeet posted:idk if you play online shooters, but do you think it's made it easier for tracking players? No, there's literally no difference whatsoever. It's entirely a preference thing.
|
|
#
?
Aug 7, 2020 03:17
|
|
|
The best games put you in a tutorial zone, telling you to move around and then to look up with the mouse / right stick, but don't tell you a direction. Instead they wait for you to move the mouse or stick and automatically check if you want inverted or not. Of course there's also games where the right stick controls the 3rd person camera inverted style, but the over the shoulder gun aiming, also controlled by the right stick, it's not inverted. And there's no settings. 
|
|
#
?
Aug 7, 2020 07:15
|
|
|
yeah i was trying to remember which game I last played that did that.
|
|
#
?
Aug 7, 2020 07:21
|
|
|
Psychonauts and Deadly Premonition 2, respectively for me.
|
|
#
?
Aug 7, 2020 07:30
|
|
|
The first two Halo games started with a check-up for your suit and had someone ask you to look at lights in a certain direction. Based on how you did that it updated your user profile. The games also had multiple gamepad layouts you could select, useful for the original Xbox controller. I think most people stuck with the default however.
|
|
#
?
Aug 7, 2020 07:53
|
|
|
It should be illegal to allow inverted control in anything that isn't a flight simulator. That way, since all it is is a preference, in a few years the war would be over.
|
|
#
?
Aug 7, 2020 08:47
|
|
|
I wish I could use non-"inverted" camera controls, it would mean some poorly programmed games were actually playable to me. I just can't conceptualise moving the centre of the screen rather than moving the camera. It makes no sense to my spacial awareness 
|
|
#
?
Aug 7, 2020 08:59
|
|
|
..btt posted:I wish I could use non-"inverted" camera controls, it would mean some poorly programmed games were actually playable to me. I just can't conceptualise moving the centre of the screen rather than moving the camera. It makes no sense to my spacial awareness Contrary opinion: It always used to bug the poo poo out of me how most games assumed a, like, physical camera floating about, and sometimes you controlled the camera and sometimes you controlled the guy the camera was looking at. It's schizophrenic, and when the tech started getting better and lens flares starting being a way to show off, that made it even worse. "It's not a physical fuckin' camera, it's a point of view! Stop cluttering up my vision with all these camera effects, this is the story of Jake Adventure, not The Motile Camera That Followed Jake Adventure Around!"
|
|
#
?
Aug 7, 2020 09:03
|
|
|
It's a point-of-view/camera/whatever else you want to call it (game engines usually call it a camera in my experience) that pivots. You're either moving the point it's aimed at, which I was calling "moving the centre of the screen", or you are moving the camera itself. To me, intuitively, you are moving the camera. Like imagine your hand on the mouse (or joystick) is holding your character's head. When you move forward, you move the top of the head forward, you look down. I get how people conceptualise it the other way, but it just makes no sense to me, and after playing video games for 30 years, I can't adapt to the other way of doing it.
|
|
#
?
Aug 7, 2020 09:10
|
|
|
If I want to look up, I point my eyes up. Games should work the same way. I don't really carry around a camera because I'm not insane. e: ooooo this isn't the Unpopular Video Game Opinions thread?  Sorry!
3D Megadoodoo fucked around with this message at 09:14 on Aug 7, 2020 |
|
#
?
Aug 7, 2020 09:11
|
|
|
3D Megadoodoo posted:If I want to look up, I point my eyes up. Games should work the same way. I don't really carry around a camera because I'm not insane. You carry around 2 "cameras" in your head 
|
|
#
?
Aug 7, 2020 09:16
|
|
|
..btt posted:It's a point-of-view/camera/whatever else you want to call it (game engines usually call it a camera in my experience) that pivots. You're either moving the point it's aimed at, which I was calling "moving the centre of the screen", or you are moving the camera itself. To me, intuitively, you are moving the camera. Like imagine your hand on the mouse (or joystick) is holding your character's head. When you move forward, you move the top of the head forward, you look down. Yeah, and I was saying I hate the conceptualization of it as a camera for whatever reason, so I was never drawn to inverse look controls. 3D Megadoodoo posted:If I want to look up, I point my eyes up. Games should work the same way. I don't really carry around a camera because I'm not insane. Agreed, when I move my head to look up, I'm not conceptualizing it as dragging the back of my head down. When I move my eyes in a direction, I don't have to try and move them the opposite direction.
|
|
#
?
Aug 7, 2020 09:18
|
|
|
John Lee posted:Contrary opinion: It always used to bug the poo poo out of me how most games assumed a, like, physical camera floating about, and sometimes you controlled the camera and sometimes you controlled the guy the camera was looking at. It's schizophrenic, and when the tech started getting better and lens flares starting being a way to show off, that made it even worse. Galaxy Brain: Super Mario 64 is actually the story of a Lakitu trying to film a documentary about Mario.
|
|
#
?
Aug 7, 2020 09:19
|
|
|
Ugly In The Morning posted:It’s a fun game, I started playing it again recently. Despite all the dark souls comparisons your guns are like 95 percent of your damage, so know that going in. I think it’s why it works for me more than most souls-ish stuff. I didn't get the souls comparisons at all, to be honest. Maybe with the assault rifle mod? 
|
|
#
?
Aug 7, 2020 09:21
|
|
|
John Lee posted:Agreed, when I move my head to look up, I'm not conceptualizing it as dragging the back of my head down. When I move my eyes in a direction, I don't have to try and move them the opposite direction. If my mouse went up and down instead of forwards and backwards, I don't think there'd be any confusion about the mapping.
|
|
#
?
Aug 7, 2020 09:22
|
|
|
John Lee posted:
really? when i look up i know consciously i'm tilting my head back. i'm not tilting my head up or forward.
|
|
#
?
Aug 7, 2020 09:23
|
|
|
i also don't really care how people play games, i'm just always interested when people have a strong preference either way.
|
|
#
?
Aug 7, 2020 09:25
|
|
|
..btt posted:If my mouse went up and down instead of forwards and backwards, I don't think there'd be any confusion about the mapping. Playing 3D games with a mouse in 2020 lmao.
|
|
#
?
Aug 7, 2020 09:40
|
|
|
hambeet posted:really? when i look up i know consciously i'm tilting my head back. i'm not tilting my head up or forward. Gonna get sidetracked here: "Lefty loosey, righty-tighty" made no sense to me as a child, and to a lesser extent today, and I got in several shouting matches with my mother because of it.  No part of this is going inherently "right!" Like, east, east-northeast, and east-southeast are all going primarily down, and the southerly bits are going left, and it's a full fuckin' rotation, there's no reason to say it's going one direction over another. I guess some weirdos look at the top-left of the faucet or wheel or whatever like they're reading a fuckin' book, and when looking at that small bit they're like "Look like it's going right to me!" Anyways, when you look up you're loosely rotating your head, the back of it is going down but the front is going up, etc.
|
|
#
?
Aug 7, 2020 09:45
|
|
|
hambeet posted:i also don't really care how people play games, i'm just always interested when people have a strong preference either way.
|
|
#
?
Aug 7, 2020 09:46
|
|
|
John Lee posted:Gonna get sidetracked here: If someone tells you to rotate something, like maybe a steering wheel, to the right or left, do you just stare at them in bewilderement? Also nice job shouting at your dear old mum.
|
|
#
?
Aug 7, 2020 10:00
|
|
|
John Lee posted:Gonna get sidetracked here: Wow GTA 2 or other bird's eye view games must've been hell to you if you don't understand relative turning.
|
|
#
?
Aug 7, 2020 10:04
|
|
|
I guess you could argue that clockwisey-tightey, anticlockwisey-loosey would be more accurate if you were a legitimate fool, because literally the only answer to "so what is clockwise?" is "rotating to the right".
|
|
#
?
Aug 7, 2020 10:06
|
|
|
3D Megadoodoo posted:If someone tells you to rotate something, like maybe a steering wheel, to the right or left, do you just stare at them in bewilderement? Also nice job shouting at your dear old mum. A: Yeah, generally, because rotation is not a right or left concept. Or, actually, I have a brief moment of grinding gears and then do the expected thing, but that's because it makes no drat sense and I have to readjust. B: My mum started the shouting, and she's not a dear old anything, she used to hit me, and when I turned sixteenish I threatened to hit her back and she said she'd call the cops on me if I did and tell them how I was a family abuser, and they'd believe her because she was the woman in a domestic abuse case. I'm currently thirty and she's still my legal guardian, and she says if I try to get it changed she'll come over and destroy everything I love in front of me before it goes through, while it's still all legally hers, so I'll drat well fondly recall pushing back on a tiny aspect of life if I want. edit: Dancer posted:Wow GTA 2 or other bird's eye view games must've been hell to you if you don't understand relative turning. I understand relative turning just fine, but that's only superficially relevant? If you're playing Asteroids, you're turning the front of the vehicle left or right. Simple. (And if anyone pops in to say that it should be the opposite because you're really turning the BACK of the ship, I'll poo poo my pants right here) There's no front of a wheel, and you're not turning it with a choice of left or right. You're gripping and twisting. edit 2: Yes, I will glady die on this hill. When I am a broken man, crushed beneath the weight of life and ready to die, all anyone will have to do to revive me is bring out a wheel and tell me to turn it right. John Lee fucked around with this message at 10:15 on Aug 7, 2020 |
|
#
?
Aug 7, 2020 10:07
|
|
|
hambeet posted:i also don't really care how people play games, i'm just always interested when people have a strong preference either way. Yeah, obviously the best solution is to just give people the option. What amazes me is recently a lot of games let you invert the horizontal axis too - does anyone really do that? That is unambiguously left for right and vice-versa.
|
|
#
?
Aug 7, 2020 10:16
|
|
|
..btt posted:Yeah, obviously the best solution is to just give people the option. What amazes me is recently a lot of games let you invert the horizontal axis too - does anyone really do that? That is unambiguously left for right and vice-versa. yeah i've noticed that in a couple of games of late and i'm like, wtf. are people playing these in mirrors?
|
|
#
?
Aug 7, 2020 10:17
|
|
|
..btt posted:Yeah, obviously the best solution is to just give people the option. What amazes me is recently a lot of games let you invert the horizontal axis too - does anyone really do that? If you go with the insane camera thing, it makes perfect sense.
|
|
#
?
Aug 7, 2020 10:18
|
|
|
John Lee posted:Gonna get sidetracked here: I use the righty tighty thing with my daughter when teaching her about screwdrivers. The bit of the screwdriver (and hand/wrist) that you can see (the top) is moving to the right. One child I knew, this didn't make sense to. But it turned out later in life, when she got tested, that she suffered from Dyspraxia. She struggled to know left from right, it takes seconds for her to know which you mean when you say "right", even into her early 20s. I sometimes wonder if it affects more people than we think.
|
|
#
?
Aug 7, 2020 10:19
|
|
|
John Lee posted:
i legit would have done this for shits and giggles if you didn't raise it first.
|
|
#
?
Aug 7, 2020 10:20
|
|
|
3D Megadoodoo posted:If you go with the insane camera thing, it makes perfect sense. How so? One is mapping backward and forward to up and down, the other is mapping right and left to left and right.
|
|
#
?
Aug 7, 2020 10:22
|
|
|
John Lee posted:Gonna get sidetracked here: lmao I had a big argument with my wife once about this exact point the once per decade time she was using a screwdriver she couldn't undo a screw, and I kept saying that "lefty-loosey righty-tighty" thing. She got furious because it wasn't working, and we worked out later that she was looking at the bottom of the screw (6'o'clock on your image), instead of the top. to keep the peace we settled on clockwise tighten, counter-clockwise loosen
|
|
#
?
Aug 7, 2020 10:40
|
|
|
I don't really care one way or the other, but I do have a question. To people talking about how looking up involves tilting your head, are you intensely aware of other largely autonomic processes? Like, as an example do you really notice that you are breathing rather than it happening almost totally unnoticed? I ask because for me the act of looking at something (so head, neck, body and eye movement) is essentially done without any thought process beyond me thinking where to look. Especially if I am responding to something that startled me or caught my eye, there is literaly zero thought involved, pure reflex. This translates into games as well since usually the only thing moving is my eyes and hands. If the character is supposed to represent my actions, then it makes sense to process up and down as standard. If the game represented my interaction with the character as more like a puppeteer pulling strings I could see using inverted, but the design philosphy of player representation directly through character motion has been hard boiled in to game design since almost the beginning. Do you feel you are puppeting your bodies rather than having direct control over them? I am also intensely aware that I am looking at a flat display that projects whatever the game world is as simple X/Y representation. Perhaps it is because I tend to be hyper aware of my surrounds. Also, this may have been asked before but I missed it. Do inverted users set flight sim controls to non-inverted? And if so, how do you justify it when real aircraft use inverted control? Zushio fucked around with this message at 10:54 on Aug 7, 2020 |
|
#
?
Aug 7, 2020 10:51
|
|
|
if you grab something with your right hand, you can either turn your wrist to your right or turn your wrist to your left. I wouldn't be surprised if the people so confused by that concept that they scream at their parents turn out to be left-handed
|
|
#
?
Aug 7, 2020 11:08
|
|
|
Please do not scream, red in the face, stomping your foot like a petulant child while whining in a high porcine voice, at your parents. While it's definitely free, it is not a game.
|
|
#
?
Aug 7, 2020 11:11
|
|
|
John Lee posted:
If you're at the center, and look at the arrow, going clockwise will mean going right, no matter where on the circle it currently is
|
|
#
?
Aug 7, 2020 11:21
|
|
|
webmeister posted:lmao I had a big argument with my wife once about this exact point That's when you switch to lefty locky, righty relaxy.
|
|
#
?
Aug 7, 2020 11:47
|
|
|
Tamba posted:If you're at the center, and look at the arrow, going clockwise will mean going right, no matter where on the circle it currently is If you're at the center and look at the arrow, it's going down, not right. Look at your steering wheel, imagine yourself in the center of it, then look to one of the sides to see the vertical ring handle Actually, to bring this whole thing full circle (lol) with the mouse debate, rotation should always be described as going up or down
|
|
#
?
Aug 7, 2020 11:55
|
|
|
Zushio posted:I don't really care one way or the other, but I do have a question. no, it's just when i think about the action of tilting my head back in this discussion.. well, look how i just phrased it. out and about day to day i don't go beep boop tilt head back. i just do it no i still play flight sims inverted. all the world is inverted.
|
|
#
?
Aug 7, 2020 12:31
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 27, 2024 22:18 |
|
|
..btt posted:How so? One is mapping backward and forward to up and down, the other is mapping right and left to left and right. If someone associates up and down on the stick with how the back of their head moves when they're looking up and down, why not the same thing when they're looking left and right? Arguably it's more consistent! really I think the takeaway from all this should be that people don't all experience the world in the same way. Concepts and associations that feel obvious and natural might be completely rear end-backwards to other people, and it's all subjective so nobody's wrong - but assuming everyone sees things the same way can make the world a much more frustrating place for a lot of people. So it's good to be aware of that, and make the effort to make things accessible to everyone 
|
|
#
?
Aug 7, 2020 14:46
|
|
