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Ardennes posted:Protests against the election (which Lukashenko "officially won"...both sides claimed victory with ify numbers). It seems like the security apparatus is continuing to back him though. They back him with quite... kinetic force, too. at least a few deaths, lots of police brutality
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Aug 10, 2020 20:31
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what if karl marx were a dog
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Aug 10, 2020 21:03
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hmm. Karl Barx?
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Aug 10, 2020 21:10
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dex_sda posted:They back him with quite... kinetic force, too. at least a few deaths, lots of police brutality The protests were enough to rattle him at least.
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Aug 10, 2020 22:17
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so i got to wondering about the political economy of historical fascism after reading "the supermanagerial reich", a good article: https://lareviewofbooks.org/article/the-supermanagerial-reich/ specifically, to what extent did any fascist state actually expand (or i guess concentrate on the "right" people) the welfare state or otherwise materially reward its middle class, white true believers? i know fascist economic programs generally led with drastic deregulation and privatization, but that they also did keynesian public works stuff, and according to wikipedia the italian welfare state expanded considerably before the war. and existing european social democracies with welfare states but right wing governments often rattle sabers about "protecting" their welfare states from globalists/immigrants/whatever, but might actually be selling them off at the same time, like when bojo Got Brexit Done but went on to start hawking parts of the NHS to US insurers. so how much historical precedent is there for "medicare for all whites" or similar so-called strasserist policy? i'm reading up on it now and my impression is that carrying out keynesian public works spending is basically the outer limit of any fascist state, since they are all consciously and explicitly founded on expanding private property, but i'm wondering if anyone here has good breakdowns/sources
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Aug 10, 2020 22:48
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Ardennes posted:The protests were enough to rattle him at least. For sure. His grip on power is weakening. Remains to be seen where it will go
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Aug 10, 2020 22:50
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the krauts had the joy through work (or work through joy I don’t remember) program which set up vacations for aryans and had its own cruise line pre-war
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Aug 10, 2020 22:51
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oh it was strength through joy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strength_Through_Joy e: lmao The 2017 novel Star Wars: Leia, Princess of Alderaan originally used the phrase "Strength through joy" as an Alderaanian proverb. The resulting controversy on social media led to an apology from Disney-Lucasfilm Press and author Claudia Gray, stating that they had not been aware of the phrase's real-world history before publication. Subsequent editions changed the proverb to "Joy drives out fear."
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Aug 10, 2020 22:52
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helpful answers from everyone, thank you 
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Aug 10, 2020 23:39
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 this post is turning me in Red Kahina
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Aug 11, 2020 01:59
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Karl Barks posted:what if karl marx were a dog Then there would be no clear rule that he couldn't play basketball.
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Aug 11, 2020 02:12
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Atrocious Joe posted:
let me hold some money
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Aug 11, 2020 02:27
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Atrocious Joe posted:
Youre not red kahina until you start posting about aoc faking coronavirus in order to destroy her congressional district's small businesses
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Aug 11, 2020 02:40
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is that a real RK take
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Aug 11, 2020 02:42
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Lumpy posted:Then there would be no clear rule that he couldn't play basketball. according to his own rules, marx has already won because the players are unionized marx is very powerful
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Aug 11, 2020 02:48
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V. Illych L. posted:fallen MLs join islamic cults. What are you referencing here ? Sounds legitimately hilarious. I've read that Maududi was influenced by Leninism, and that the JeI is structured like a Marxist Leninist party. While I can see the comparisons, it seems like stretch.
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Aug 11, 2020 03:46
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indigi posted:is that a real RK take Pretty much. She also thinks AOC is quite literally the "new Fuhrer." Why people are so allergic to just calling opportunists opportunists, I couldn't tell you.
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Aug 11, 2020 04:23
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Pomeroy posted:Pretty much. She also thinks AOC is quite literally the "new Fuhrer." Why people are so allergic to just calling opportunists opportunists, I couldn't tell you. Admittedly, AOC had a pretty quick turn around, it goes to show that people who want to go to DC only do it for their own benefit. (Btw, I don't know if this is necessarily only the case in history either.)
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Aug 11, 2020 04:30
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ToxicAcne posted:What are you referencing here ? Sounds legitimately hilarious. I've read that Maududi was influenced by Leninism, and that the JeI is structured like a Marxist Leninist party. While I can see the comparisons, it seems like stretch. 
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Aug 11, 2020 06:44
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indigi posted:they should call it 2SSR communism with gacha characteristics
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Aug 11, 2020 06:54
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Ardennes posted:Admittedly, AOC had a pretty quick turn around, it goes to show that people who want to go to DC only do it for their own benefit. (Btw, I don't know if this is necessarily only the case in history either.) What has AOC done? I haven't kept up with her in the past few months.
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Aug 11, 2020 06:59
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frankly the more i read the more I just feel like marx was pretty much spot on about capitalism but the whole doing the thing after capitalism hasn't been done right yet and we're on our own hope that doesnt mean im first against the wall in the glorious new american socialist republic of twitter people with anxiety disorders but I dunno.
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Aug 11, 2020 07:01
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ToxicAcne posted:What are you referencing here ? Sounds legitimately hilarious. I've read that Maududi was influenced by Leninism, and that the JeI is structured like a Marxist Leninist party. While I can see the comparisons, it seems like stretch. a number of anecdotes, mostly from norwegian politics (e.g. https://no.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trond_Ali_Linstad) as well as your baby finland types it's not especially well-established empirically, but it legitimately seems as though conversion to islam is a fairly common come-down from serious maoism and i've never heard of, like, a khruschevite going that way
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Aug 11, 2020 09:42
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gradenko_2000 posted:What's going on in Belarus
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Aug 11, 2020 11:18
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ToxicAcne posted:What has AOC done? I haven't kept up with her in
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Aug 11, 2020 14:26
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https://twitter.com/kazbek/status/1293205380315611137
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Aug 11, 2020 17:00
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Ferrinus posted:specifically, to what extent did any fascist state actually expand (or i guess concentrate on the "right" people) the welfare state or otherwise materially reward its middle class, white true believers? There's a book by Götz Aly called Hitler's Beneficiaries that might be the most straightforward attempt answer this very question in the German case, though it's come in for some strong methodological critique. In particular, the estimable Adam Tooze (of The Wages of Destruction) went back and forth with him on it, which can be found summarized here with links to articles in both German and English. In particular, I liked the Dapim article archived there, but that's more of a historiographical discussion than an economic one. Beloved forums alumnus McCaine also critically cites Aly in a larger discussion of the Nazi-era economy: quote:More than 20% of the total national income was to be spent on rearmament, compared to a contemporary average of 4.7% of GDP for the United States with ongoing wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. ... Incidentally, McCaine's three-part essay may be useful. ("What Was Nazi Germany?" — Part I, Part II, Part III) Aeolius fucked around with this message at 17:08 on Aug 11, 2020 |
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Aug 11, 2020 17:02
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[quote is not edit!]
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Aug 11, 2020 17:04
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The issue is that the oligarchical class wouldn't mind seeing Putin/Lukashenko gone, they also wouldn't accept general strikes or greater economic subsidies to the non-rich. With Euromaidan, the new government was even more severe than the previous one and there is a reason pro-Russian sentiment is slowly increasing. Lukashenko's popularity (at least initially) came from the fact that privatization was more limited in Belarus than Russia/Ukraine (and to this day, life expectancy is higher in Belarus). However, due to higher energy tariffs and the limited variety of exports, Belarus has seen its currency devalued in recent years and the cost of living has overcome state salaries. The Belarussian state is slowly going broke. For the left in both countries, the question is how to get rid of the government and not fall into the same color revolution trap as always. ToxicAcne posted:What has AOC done? I haven't kept up with her in the past few months. Predictably enough she caved to Pelosi, and since then has generally played ball with the Democratic leadership. Nothing will change. (Edit: Interestingly enough Armenia had its revolution recently, but the new government decided to stick with the Eurasian Union and basically Russia didn't do anything and everything bumped along as normal. In the case of Belarus, if a new government came to power but kept the same security arrangements as before, there is a chance the same thing would happen. That said, I think Russia would rather go to war than allow NATO forces in Belarus, it is just too close to Moscow.) Ardennes fucked around with this message at 17:33 on Aug 11, 2020 |
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Aug 11, 2020 17:17
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Ardennes posted:Lukashenko's popularity (at least initially) came from the fact that privatization was more limited in Belarus than Russia/Ukraine (and to this day, life expectancy is higher in Belarus). However, due to higher energy tariffs and the limited variety of exports, Belarus has seen its currency devalued in recent years and the cost of living has overcome state salaries. The Belarussian state is slowly going broke. belarus also turned into a bit of a beaurocratic grift machine, which only makes matters worse
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Aug 11, 2020 17:23
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Wow, really lazy with the naming of states
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Aug 11, 2020 17:54
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edit: nm, post moved to the succ zone
galenanorth fucked around with this message at 18:30 on Aug 11, 2020 |
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Aug 11, 2020 18:03
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Aeolius posted:There's a book by Götz Aly called Hitler's Beneficiaries that might be the most straightforward attempt answer this very question in the German case, though it's come in for some strong methodological critique. In particular, the estimable Adam Tooze (of The Wages of Destruction) went back and forth with him on it, which can be found summarized here with links to articles in both German and English. In particular, I liked the Dapim article archived there, but that's more of a historiographical discussion than an economic one. thanks!
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Aug 11, 2020 19:30
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I'm a little late to the Trot vs ML party but I wanted to say that as a former member of a Trotskyist group (the ISO, which ended up imploding a year ago when it came out that a longtime member committed a sex crime that was covered up by the leadership) my on-the-ground experience of the only 2 ML groups I ever encountered (PSL and RevComUSA) is that they both seemed even more culty than we were, especially the RevComUSA people, who are clearly generally deranged. Meanwhile, the other major trot group on the block (SAlt, to which the other forum resident Trot belongs) was largely oriented around the electoral campaigns and actions of their city councillor, Sawant. I respect Sawant, but the whole organization seemed to be very top-down from the outside and generally focused on electoralism as an instrument of building socialism, and I knew people who got burnt out due to those factors. I neither know nor care how the backbone of the ML vs Trotskyist politics informs these strange variations among these sects because it is extraordinarily unlikely any of these organizations will be the embryo of a future revolutionary party. I am of the opinion that whatever conflicts will emerge in the development of any hypothetical future revolutionary party are unlikely to map onto whatever divides exist among these miniscule and extremely marginal political entities. I am also of the opinion that only cranks care enough about the conflict between Trotsky and Stalin to sustain an argument about it. That being said, it can be extraordinarily educational to take part in these strange sects. I owe my literacy in Marxist ideas and ability to speak intelligently on these matters to people in my daily life thanks to my time organizing in a Marxist grouping, despite its political insignificance on the big picture. It has saved me from being a simpering liberal technocrat, or a social democrat whose political imagination would have been limited to the platforms of the leftward outliers and sheepdogs among the Democratic party. There is little point in taking these highly granular historical political stances seriously outside of the realm of organizations, because everything else is unmoored intellectual masturbation that leads to people identifying as Demianarchist Hoxhaists on their twitter profiles or something. There are few things more politically impotent that don't involve being a committed Democrat voter. Mr. Lobe fucked around with this message at 20:37 on Aug 11, 2020 |
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Aug 11, 2020 20:23
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What makes Trotskyists not Leninists? Historically it is pretty clear that Trotsky and Lenin agreed on a lot of stuff, and that Trotsky only split from the Leninist project after Lenin's death. To me a Trotskyist was always a Leninist who hates all actual attempts at implementing Leninism and also hates all non Leninist branches of Marxism. Might be a regional thing, I suppose.
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Aug 11, 2020 20:47
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every trotskyist i know would argue we are leninists. ive read as much if not more by lenin than trotsky in my life. historically i see both as integral to understanding the basis for the 1917 revolution. lenin was right about the form and approach the revolutionary party should take, trotsky was right about the method by which the working class could take power in a pre-capitalist country. once the two both came to see through the course of events that the other was right about the one part they were wrong about, their leadership helped steer the bolsheviks to bringing the soviets to power.
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Aug 11, 2020 21:02
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VictualSquid posted:What makes Trotskyists not Leninists? Most Trotskyists I know would call themselves Leninist. I think a distinction should be drawn between being critical of, and hating something. Trotsky himself said that the USSR under Stalin, for instance, should be defended in the face of Western imposition, despite his enuneration of the flaws in its structure and governance as he saw it. I'd say the main difference between a Trotskyist and the kind of Leninist you describe is whether they think it is important to be critical of existing socialist projects. It's hard to say any of them have been clearly and democratically governed by the working class without the interference of an entrenched bureaucratic class, for instance. At their most extreme, you find MLs who will not acknowledge flaws in, say, North Korea's governance. At the other extreme, you can find Trotskyists who go so far as to implicitly support US intervention against what they perceive as failed projects, though I think those extremes are a lot less common in either broad category than they are painted by the opposite.
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Aug 11, 2020 21:05
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Trotsky writing at beginning of Barbarossa wasn’t particularly impressive.
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Aug 11, 2020 21:46
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VictualSquid posted:What makes Trotskyists not Leninists? Historically, Trotsky only joined forces with the Bolsheviks when the Bolsheviks started winning: https://www.marxists.org/archive/olgin/1935/trotskyism/02.htm. He never really had any real love for Leninism, and started the Left Opposition already in 1921, before Lenin died. Even 'Lenin's testament' that current Trotskyists use to say that Stalin is a big bad says Trotsky never started out as a Bolshevik
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Aug 11, 2020 21:52
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i wonder if there was a way we could view revolutionary events and the figures which took part in them with nuance and place them in context to the events surrounding them? unfortunately we cannot, and so it is with great regret that i must now say comrade lenin was a bourgeois revisionist for his associations with martov.
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Aug 11, 2020 22:34
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