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Mr. Lobe posted:I am of the opinion that whatever conflicts will emerge in the development of any hypothetical future revolutionary party are unlikely to map onto whatever divides exist among these miniscule and extremely marginal political entities. I am also of the opinion that only cranks care enough about the conflict between Trotsky and Stalin to sustain an argument about it. This is a very good take IMO EDIT: FIRST ON PAGE 1000 WOLOLO
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Aug 11, 2020 22:47
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The post-Bernie DSA may actually be learning! https://twitter.com/DemSocialists/status/1292992866692694016?s=20
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Aug 11, 2020 23:21
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Mr. Lobe posted:At their most extreme, you find MLs who will not acknowledge flaws in, say, North Korea's governance. Jesus Christ, are you serious? Is there a short guide to the various branches of Marxism? A good overview that doesn't involve 100 year old academic texts?
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Aug 11, 2020 23:29
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Cpt_Obvious posted:Jesus Christ, are you serious? dont worry about branches of marxism, look at parties and orgs in your country, read their political perspectives in their paper/journal which is likely online, look at the work theyve done, and get involved on that basis. the organizations with crazy politics, luckily for the rest of us, tend to lead pretty heavily with those crazy politics in their written material
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Aug 11, 2020 23:32
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Cpt_Obvious posted:Jesus Christ, are you serious? Those crazies are The names of branches are not defined well enough to write something useful about them. And they are also very regional. And when talking about organistions the name will at best refer to their opinions at the time of their founding, with both the meaning of label and the opinions of the group changing in different direction since then.
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Aug 11, 2020 23:41
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quote:It is quite true that the record of the minutes is imperfect, containing many omissions and obscure passages. But this is equally true of all the minutes of the Petrograd Committee for the year 1917. The record of the November 1 session is, if anything, superior to several others. It is generally known that Lenin’s speeches were always difficult to record even in shorthand, because of the peculiarities of his delivery. He spoke very rapidly, using extremely complex sentences, making sudden and abrupt interpolations, etc. Nevertheless, the full import of Lenin’s speech of November 1 (14) is perfectly clear. Lunacharsky’s speech and the two speeches of Trotsky are quite adequately recorded. The reason for the excision of these minutes is wholly different. Nor is it difficult to find. The reason is denoted on the margins of the proof sheets by a heavy line accompanied with an enormous question mark. These notations are placed next to the following words in the text:
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Aug 11, 2020 23:57
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There's already so much demonization of North Korea in the West, and I don't think publicizing a critical Marxist analysis of Juche will help. It's more important to actually inform people how North Koreans are humans, and that US backed sanctions on the country are literally killing people in North Korea. Most people in the US don't even know about the massive destruction US bombing in Korea caused, or that the US is still technically at war with the DPRK.
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Aug 12, 2020 00:06
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Atrocious Joe posted:There's already so much demonization of North Korea in the West, and I don't think publicizing a critical Marxist analysis of Juche will help. It's more important to actually inform people how North Koreans are humans, and that US backed sanctions on the country are literally killing people in North Korea. Most people in the US don't even know about the massive destruction US bombing in Korea caused, or that the US is still technically at war with the DPRK. Not an empty quote
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Aug 12, 2020 00:16
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i would like to formally apologize for ever doubting the leadership of stalin and the light of historical materialism
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Aug 12, 2020 01:24
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https://twitter.com/Keffals/status/1293320631401029633?s=19
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Aug 12, 2020 02:20
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https://twitter.com/BernieSanders/status/1293290750982139905?s=20 Bernie Panders.
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Aug 12, 2020 02:26
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VictualSquid posted:What makes Trotskyists not Leninists? Trotskyists are leninists in a philosophical sense, they're just an alterative leninism that is not ML. Had they been wildly successful and MLs weaker (perhaps USSR being one of the WW2 losers), they could be known as *the* leninism. About this and Mr. Lobe's good post, I honestly feel like it's a red flag (the bad kind) when any of these groups in principally interested in what I could call leftism: engaging with leftist personalities, the leftist subculture, and leftist literature as a sort of cultural education. I agree that probably none of those are going to play a real role in anything interesting that might happen, while groups principally engaging with people will even if their politics aren't so great. Like, it might carry more weight to engage in a literal religious community than the ML club next door, depending on what each practically does and allows you to do. Of course, that's not because e.g. churches are good in themselves, it's because if some actual leadership appears out of the left field, they're going to become a force to be reckoned with because sympathizing actual social leaders threw their weight behind them. Anyone who can contribute a lot of people in a time of need carries more weight than someone who can only contribute esoteric leftist booksmarts. Edit: I don't mean leadership is something that comes from "outside" and simply has to be waited for like the birth of some messiah, just that most of the people currently focusing on attempts to build it are going to be disappointed with their results. uncop fucked around with this message at 06:25 on Aug 12, 2020 |
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Aug 12, 2020 04:52
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i mean the problem with all leftists groups being adrift is anytime one gets organized enough to do anything the cia shows up and kills everyone either literally or spiritually. You'd be better off restartin one of the old christian sects.
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Aug 12, 2020 06:53
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is there any hope
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Aug 12, 2020 07:40
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indigi posted:is there any hope in my matrix pod i'm gonna dream i'm a pirate 
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Aug 12, 2020 07:44
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You want to hit that sweet spot of being connected and respected with enough relevant groups and people through small actions and support that when class struggle escalates they start properly listening to you about solutions while not being so loud and obvious beforehand that it paints that bullseye on your head that gets you targeted for destruction by the state as a priority. Focus on being the healthiest and prettiest flower in the field rather than the tallest.
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Aug 12, 2020 08:58
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namesake posted:You want to hit that sweet spot of being connected and respected with enough relevant groups and people through small actions and support that when class struggle escalates they start properly listening to you about solutions while not being so loud and obvious beforehand that it paints that bullseye on your head that gets you targeted for destruction by the state as a priority. This poster gets it Also, consider your time as an activist an opportunity to become more socially adroit and comfortable collaborating with people. Those are the skills that will count when we start to become collectively more organized. They are also skills anyone can develop, or improve. And in my experience, if you are playing your cards right, you'll find yourself in the course of a few years in contact with comrades in cities all over the country who will let you crash on their couch. That's valuable even if this whole revolution business doesn't pay dividends in the near future
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Aug 12, 2020 09:16
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huh, if that's all they do then maybe my crippling anxiety isn't actually a barrier to joining an organization after all
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Aug 12, 2020 09:23
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Mr. Lobe posted:And in my experience, if you are playing your cards right, you'll find yourself in the course of a few years in contact with comrades in cities all over the country who will let you crash on their couch. That's valuable even if this whole revolution business doesn't pay dividends in the near future redbeds.com edit lmao that's worth pasting into the url bar
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Aug 12, 2020 09:26
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i recently bought neil harding's book called 'lenin's political thought,' in part because it's on mccaine's marxist reading list. have any posters itt read it, or know anything about the author that i should know before reading it?
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Aug 12, 2020 09:28
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i say swears online posted:redbeds.com sounds like some kind of bizarre porn website where people bleed out onto beds while having sex... bit worried to go to that website
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Aug 12, 2020 09:55
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is there some kind of good left take on Xinjiang and China somewhere cause all I can find are either hardcore tankie takes or US state releases/think tanks on it
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Aug 12, 2020 12:57
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Hefty Leftist posted:is there some kind of good left take on Xinjiang and China somewhere cause all I can find are either hardcore tankie takes or US state releases/think tanks on it Why does it matter? Nothing we do or say will effect China, so it seems like navel gazing to me.
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Aug 12, 2020 14:09
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apropos to nothing posted:i wonder if there was a way we could view revolutionary events and the figures which took part in them with nuance and place them in context to the events surrounding them? unfortunately we cannot, and so it is with great regret that i must now say comrade lenin was a bourgeois revisionist for his associations with martov. you've made this joke before, but the thing is that most bolsheviks were not purged. if you're going to be dialectical you need to reckon with the fact that only a minority of the party were found to wreckers, saboteurs, etc such that their former associations with liberals became part of a general case against them, and conclude that people actually had reasons for saying what they said and doing what they did besides arbitrary caprice Hefty Leftist posted:is there some kind of good left take on Xinjiang and China somewhere cause all I can find are either hardcore tankie takes or US state releases/think tanks on it centrism is a disease
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Aug 12, 2020 14:14
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SSJ_naruto_2003 posted:Why does it matter? Nothing we do or say will effect China, so it seems like navel gazing to me. you're probably right. in where i am there's an enormous amount of sinophobia, so you see it crop up in radical circles. it seems like the best thing if you're in the imperialist core is to be anti-interventionist, anti-war, anti-imperialist, because materially capitalists are going to use any foreign criticism as an excuse to invade and extract. what the substance of that criticism is doesn't really matter.
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Aug 12, 2020 14:19
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Ferrinus posted:you've made this joke before, but the thing is that most bolsheviks were not purged. if you're going to be dialectical you need to reckon with the fact that only a minority of the party were found to wreckers, saboteurs, etc such that their former associations with liberals became part of a general case against them, and conclude that people actually had reasons for saying what they said and doing what they did besides arbitrary caprice really dont wanna have this debate again cause imo theres just no point not gonna change each others minds but are you seriously arguing that the people purged were wreckers and saboteurs? like i made the joke about martov specifically who was the arch menshevik, obviously wasnt purged cause was never in the CP, but do you feel like he was a wrecker and sabateur? guy spent his entire life running between prison and exile fighting for socialist revolution, founded iskra and the RSDLP. you can disagree with him, like many including lenin did, while still recognizing that it would have been much better if he and many others could have been reconciled to what would become the communist party, like lenin did. really outta take a moment and consider what it means to be purged, expelled, or to experience or even initiate a split in a party. its one of if not the worst things that can possibly happen to a revolutionary organization. the split within the RSDLP was never imagined to be permanent by anyone, not even in 1917 were the vast majority of bolsheviks and menshiviks operating under the idea that they werent working to eventually reunite. and thats why splits and expulsions and purges are so damning, because so many people see them as temporary or transient things which will be resolved in the course of class struggle. but they dont resolve they only become more permanent, differences harden and every point of disagreement however minor is turned into another battle for the factions to fight over. there were periods during the purges where anywhere between 10-20% of the party were purged or forced out. and this is not a one time affair. its really easy to be flippant and handwave purges and expulsions until you imagine youre the one being purged or expelled, and what kind of actions would justify such a thing. i really dont know what else i can say on the issue. even during and after the purges many of the new or separate organizations of socialists which formed by those purged were specifically not trying to start new parties, they still felt they could reconcile with the comintern and rejoin the party because they did not want to break with them. theres members of the communist league and the IWW being beaten on the streets by CPUSA members and the CLA and IWW members not even fighting back or defending themselves but instead making pleas with the CPUSA members to stop, and to see them as comrades. somebody earlier was talking about sects and how small various socialist groups are and honestly a big part of it imo is because so many of them are unable to actually allow for democratic debate and discussion within their ranks without this leading to splits, expulsions, purges, etc. its why in my opinion so many communist organizations in the present day have an almost conservative character, because they dont have any real living debate which reflects the current political situation and what it means for revolutionaries. for many, the party is just a church where the words of the great men of socialism must be read and studied and recitation of these words will eventually lead to the awakening of all the people and then we shall win. thankfully i am not in such an organization and luckily there are still some out there which do carry on the spirit of democratic debate and decision making.
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Aug 12, 2020 15:15
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like i honestly dont even know how to respond to the idea that figures like kamenev, zinoviev, trotsky, etc. were wreckers and saboteurs. you can disagree with them, you can hate them, whatever, but jfc. read a biography on any of them and then please tell me these people who spent their entire lives in exile, in prison, on the run, dodging assassins, and still able to organize vast networks of revolutionaries across europe really had the ultimate goal of leading russia to capitalist restoration. meanwhile dumbasses on twitter whove never even organized a book club with more than 5 people wanna spout off about how this one or that one were counter-revolutionary traitors, get loving real. even with stalin id never argue he was a counter revolutionary or anything, i believe he genuinely wanted and fought for a socialist society. the reason hes poo poo isnt because he didnt want socialism hes poo poo because he and the clique around him stifled any real meaningful dissent, something ive seen happen in the present day in various cases and organizations by leaders who mean well and who have contributed a great deal to the revolutionary movement who are too convinced of their own ideas and refuse to accept challenges to their authority.
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Aug 12, 2020 15:25
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idk all the history but I do know I don’t want to be purged and imprisoned/killed because I’ve donated to mutual aid orgs in the past and think capital punishment is bad even under socialism
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Aug 12, 2020 15:26
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indigi posted:idk all the history but I do know I don’t want to be purged and imprisoned/killed because I’ve donated to mutual aid orgs in the past and think capital punishment is bad even under socialism i feel like the idea of not wanting to be purged and imprisoned/killed is shared by most if not all members of the working class. and hell as a member of the working class myself, i am in the same boat
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Aug 12, 2020 15:30
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the funny thing about the sectarianism is that anarchists also have lots of beliefs how exactly to structure a horizontal society, yet those organisations manage to unite anarchosyndicalists with queer activists with liberation catholics and even the odd communist-but-the-communist-parties-here-are-poo poo-so-ill-hang-with-you-guys without much problem thanks to radically democratising the process. but there is a culture of acceptance (and even affection) of dissent and differing opinions among anarchists, as long as the dissent is socialist in nature, and it's something I don't see nearly as often on the ML side
dex_sda fucked around with this message at 15:46 on Aug 12, 2020 |
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Aug 12, 2020 15:41
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i say swears online posted:redbeds.com jesus christ
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Aug 12, 2020 15:41
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i say swears online posted:redbeds.com wtf lol
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Aug 12, 2020 15:43
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At least in the US, ML orgs often have members encouraged to join community orgs and unions, even if they aren't openly organizing as a communist. There's no entryist plans with this either. Some do this with Democrat NGOs though which is dumb
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Aug 12, 2020 15:47
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dex_sda posted:the funny thing about the sectarianism is that anarchists also have lots of beliefs how exactly to structure a horizontal society, yet those organisations manage to unite anarchosyndicalists with queer activists with liberation catholics and even the odd communist-but-the-communist-parties-here-are-poo poo-so-ill-hang-with-you-guys without much problem thanks to radically democratising the process. but there is a culture of acceptance (and even affection) of dissent and differing opinions among anarchists, as long as the dissent is socialist in nature, and it's something I don't see nearly as often on the ML side anarchists are also extremely sectarian, but in terms of moral demands rather than official doctrine IME
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Aug 12, 2020 15:55
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Also god bless all of you who have never had unrelated organizing derailed by claims that you're Assadist or a weird discussion that the PRC deserves to be destroyed.
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Aug 12, 2020 15:58
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V. Illych L. posted:anarchists are also extremely sectarian, but in terms of moral demands rather than official doctrine IME Yeah sure, and that strictness is why anarchists are the fringe. but my point is that easily 90% of actual ML practicioners would pass the anarchist moral muster and find some org/collective/commune where they would be accepted that still works with other anarchist orgs in the area, whereas the opposite way is often a good way to get in trouble with the people higher in the hierarchy e; i guess the way I would explain it at least here is we manage to separate ourselves into sects but still come together for bigger issues dex_sda fucked around with this message at 16:08 on Aug 12, 2020 |
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Aug 12, 2020 16:03
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honestly i've stopped bothering with the weirdo sects, i much prefer engaging in the broader labour movement in my country and am much happier and less paranoid as a result
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Aug 12, 2020 16:09
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dex_sda posted:wtf lol looking forward to getting those monthly checks from China
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Aug 12, 2020 16:12
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Atrocious Joe posted:Also god bless all of you who have never had unrelated organizing derailed by claims that you're Assadist or a weird discussion that the PRC deserves to be destroyed. I once met a member of PSL that thought that caring about climate change was bougie. One of the most weird convos iv ever had.
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Aug 12, 2020 16:15
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Lady Militant posted:I once met a member of PSL that thought that caring about climate change was bougie. One of the most weird convos iv ever had. it is, to some extent. a huge part of the evironmental movement are basically middle-class moralists a la extinction rebellion, and dealing with climate issues requires some severe poo poo. most workers, in the west or elsewhere, genuinely do not seem to be much moved by environmental issues when weighed against security and community. their main use to socialists is imo as a case for why capitalism just absolutely has to go, no educated lib can actually respond with any substance and they'll start raving about batteries on cruise ships and poo poo the lack of genuine popular support for climate policy is sincerely pretty horrific, but it seems to be very real
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Aug 12, 2020 16:22
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