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So is there anything we can do about this dude Like I dunno can we spam comments on his work somewhere, or report his stuff, or otherwise bother him I am so tired of watching assholes trample all over decent folks and being powerless to stop it
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Aug 13, 2020 13:37
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paradoxGentleman posted:So is there anything we can do about this dude He's an unrepentant shithead and a cop, so I doubt his employers would care. You might get something done by talking to DTRPG instead, and asking for answers why they took the product down when they still allow much worse products.
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Aug 13, 2020 20:01
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Are we going to ignore the fact that the product is called "Stark Naked Neo Savages & Sanguine City States vol 4" ? Is savages a word we can still use, because I was pretty sure that one went out of use well before "mad."
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Aug 13, 2020 23:37
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Savages absolutely depends on the ethnicity of the "savages." Also apparently the British still think it's globally applicable? E: Conan's Picts would be ok to call "savages," along with Immortan Joe's Warboys or Negan's saviors. The Not OK List is literally any indigenous peoples whatsoever. moths fucked around with this message at 23:46 on Aug 13, 2020 |
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Aug 13, 2020 23:43
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moths posted:Savages absolutely depends on the ethnicity of the "savages." Also apparently the British still think it's globally applicable? Ah yes we can't forget the white savages
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Aug 13, 2020 23:46
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This is making me wonder*, is there ever a (most certainly fictional) example of a group that you could call "savages" without it being gross? My immediate possible example would be like the Reavers from Firefly because they're not an ethnic group or a culture, but are literally defined by being all about behaving in a way that certainly seems "savage" in the sense of "wild and beyond control", since they're just murder rape cannibals. Or like ghouls or zombies or something. (Note : very specifically not saying that writing such a group of people is a good idea, just wondering if there's ever a time it could be applied without terrible implications, just as a thought exercise.) *Literally wonder in the sense of I don't know the answer, not weird "I'm just asking questions!".
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Aug 14, 2020 00:20
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XD do you have me on ignore or something?
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Aug 14, 2020 00:31
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Xiahou Dun posted:This is making me wonder*, is there ever a (most certainly fictional) example of a group that you could call "savages" without it being gross? People who put pineapple on pizza.
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Aug 14, 2020 00:37
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Xiahou Dun posted:This is making me wonder*, is there ever a (most certainly fictional) example of a group that you could call "savages" without it being gross? My immediate possible example would be like the Reavers from Firefly because they're not an ethnic group or a culture, but are literally defined by being all about behaving in a way that certainly seems "savage" in the sense of "wild and beyond control", since they're just murder rape cannibals. Or like ghouls or zombies or something. (Note : very specifically not saying that writing such a group of people is a good idea, just wondering if there's ever a time it could be applied without terrible implications, just as a thought exercise.) Except in the pastiche of Firefly, the Reavers take the part of the Native Americans who were quite often called "savages" and portrayed as "wild and beyond control," so as usual this is just Whedon having exactly zero insight into his source materials, just copying it across and making it worse. Like, I loved Firefly like just about every nerd in 2004 but a few years on it is solidly yikes. Edit: gonna take the brave stance that "savages" is not okay in TYOOL 2020
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Aug 14, 2020 00:41
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Xiahou Dun posted:This is making me wonder*, is there ever a (most certainly fictional) example of a group that you could call "savages" without it being gross? Family members of the country singer Randy
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Aug 14, 2020 00:49
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Zurui posted:Except in the pastiche of Firefly, the Reavers take the part of the Native Americans who were quite often called "savages" and portrayed as "wild and beyond control," so as usual this is just Whedon having exactly zero insight into his source materials, just copying it across and making it worse. O yeah, hence my hair-splitting second part. It's not something that should've been written, but taking the fiction, could the word ever be applied. (Note : not advocating for using the word "savages" ; I agree it's at its very best problematic and thorny : when I agree with something I tend to be more critical of it cause I actually care.) Lemon-Lime posted:People who put pineapple on pizza. Okay, you got me there. They're clearly going against the natural order. moths posted:XD do you have me on ignore or something? No? You got me thinking about it.
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Aug 14, 2020 00:51
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I gave three examples of cool-to-call savages like two posts up from yours! E: Also I remember butting heads with you earlier over something I don't remember and now is probably a good time to apologize for being abrasive. poo poo's been poo poo and I don't always compartmentalize emotion well. moths fucked around with this message at 00:55 on Aug 14, 2020 |
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Aug 14, 2020 00:53
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Tsilkani posted:He's an unrepentant shithead and a cop, so I doubt his employers would care. You might get something done by talking to DTRPG instead, and asking for answers why they took the product down when they still allow much worse products.
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Aug 14, 2020 00:54
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Eastmabl posted:Family members of the country singer Randy 
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Aug 14, 2020 00:58
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moths posted:I gave three examples of cool-to-call savages like two posts up from yours! Exactly, dawg. Your examples got me trying to think of other examples. (Also I don't remember it either and am also sorry : probably just plague stress and us both letting off steam in a not-helpful way.)
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Aug 14, 2020 00:59
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Honestly anyone who would be called "savage" in a Not Racist way somehow would already be under the banner of being called a "barbarian".
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Aug 14, 2020 01:06
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You made me happy smile IRL. I think the big distinction with "savages" is that it's acceptable when talking about people who have chosen a path of violence. The inhabitants of NYC in Escape From NY or the Fallout Raiders had alternatives, but chose savagery. Using it as shorthand for cultures that haven't yet achieved some arbitrary threshold of technologies is where racism enters the picture. "Primatives" is a harder circle to square. Ash calling a bunch of feudal white people "primative screw-heads" was perfect, but there's a lot of places that would be offensive af.
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Aug 14, 2020 01:17
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Savage is still a fine word as an adjective to describe a type of behavior. I think the historical usage for indigenous tribes is so obviously problematic we don't even need to discuss it. And I think its use as for example a descriptor for a melee attack is so obviously fine that we don't need to discuss that either. But I suspect there's a grey area in between; when it's applied to groups that aren't clearly (or at all) references to or analogues of or parodies of or metaphors for historically or currently disadvantaged groups, that might be well worth talking about, if we can do so respectfully. Let me just drop this screencap in here for reference  I appreciate the "DATED" and "OFFENSIVE" tags there, although I'm not sure I 100% agree that all the untagged ones are all inoffensive. But for an example of unproblematic usage: in a fictional RPG setting, you could describe an oppressive political regime that uses unrestrained violence as a "savage regime". Even if that political regime also had a racial or cultural component, you're using the word to describe the government's actions, not the innate nature of the race. "The Romulans savagely oppressed their people using the Tal Shiar" doesn't imply that Romulans are savages. I don't know anything about Stark Naked Neo Savages & Sanguine City States vol 4 so I have no opinion right now about whether the use of the word here is problematic. I think I can imagine content with that label that wasn't problematic, but that doesn't mean what I'm imagining applies obviously. The reference to the phrase 'naked savage' raises both eyebrows though.
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Aug 14, 2020 01:18
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Speaking as a person who's the target of "savage" as a slur I can usually grant some contextual leeway when its used as a verb or adjective but on the whole I'd rather you just not. Rather not be reminded of the poo poo french canadian dudes scream at 9 year old hockey players.
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Aug 14, 2020 01:34
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Here's an article about wheelchairs in dungeons and dragons. In a world where Remove Paralysis exists this seems perfunctory.
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Aug 14, 2020 05:47
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Remove Paralysis only works on magical paralysis. It won't cure a broken spine or missing/disabled legs.
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Aug 14, 2020 05:55
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moths posted:Here's an article about wheelchairs in dungeons and dragons. I think that while we might say that anyone with a disability, but exists in a world where magic can cure disabilities, might want to have it removed/cured, it also stands to reason that a player who is living with a disability, might still want to play a character who also has a disability, for the sake of familiarity and representation. Further, the mere existence of a magical means of removing disabilities does not imply that access to them is easy, to the extent that attaining the means of curing a disability that afflicts someone may well be a significant part of their character arc.
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Aug 14, 2020 06:04
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Although there is, you know, literal healing magic. That's a very weird article that confuses me very much. I appreciate the idea of combating ableism but the take is just so ??????????? And while I certainly wouldn't speak for the disabled community, when I had to walk with a cane for a couple of years I wanted to escape the gently caress out of that. After the first 2 years I was already getting confused when I'd watch a movie and someone could carry something in two hands cause I'd just internalized "well obviously you need one hand for the cane".
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Aug 14, 2020 06:06
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I mean, my take is... people I know with disabilities have expressed, at different times but from the same people, the desire to play characters with and without the same (or other!) disabilities. Sometimes they want to play characters who don't have any mechanical penalty but still have the disability, because they want to feel that those characters can be important, can be the heroes of these stories. So like... what's the point of arguing that the option shouldn't exist? Unless there's a crucial setting reason (and that often ends up kind of eugenic, unless the setting reasoning is extremely thoughtful). Why not just have the option, and let people decide whether or not to use it?
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Aug 14, 2020 06:19
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You really don't want to go down the 'Why don't mages/wizards use magic to make a utopia?' rabbit hole with D&D because it's functionally bottomless.
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Aug 14, 2020 06:51
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Also the focus on curing disability rather than allowing disabled people to exist in a society that meets their needs is a whole thing. There are plenty of us that don't want to be cured for one reason or another, and the idea of cures rings false to a lot of our lives experiences. Idk, I came to disability recently but it's not a cut and dry thing whatsoever.
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Aug 14, 2020 07:01
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Joe Slowboat posted:I mean, my take is... people I know with disabilities have expressed, at different times but from the same people, the desire to play characters with and without the same (or other!) disabilities. O yeah I'm definitely not disagreeing with the idea of representation and letting people get to be cool heroes despite disabilities. Sorry if it came off that way. Just how that take was written leaves a funny taste in my mouth and I don't like it but am having a hard time expressing why and how.
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Aug 14, 2020 07:08
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Do you have the same problem with healing magic and people having eyepatches or dopeass scars
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Aug 14, 2020 07:14
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I'm saying that the article isn't as nuanced as I would prefer and over-simplifies things that I struggled with and how I felt about them as someone who dealt with a disability for many yeas and still has mobility problems. I'm giving my honest reaction to the article and explaining my background which influences my feelings.
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Aug 14, 2020 07:21
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Xiahou Dun posted:O yeah I'm definitely not disagreeing with the idea of representation and letting people get to be cool heroes despite disabilities. Sorry if it came off that way. Just how that take was written leaves a funny taste in my mouth and I don't like it but am having a hard time expressing why and how. If I had to guess you feel that way because it goes against your experience of disability and the idea of wanting to no longer have to use a cane is something you felt very strongly about, so it felt like a personal attack even though it definitely wasn't. I think you're bringing a lot of your own stuff in, man
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Aug 14, 2020 07:21
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Are we really doing the "not disabled enough" dance when I specifically said that I wasn't trying to speak for the whole community and was just giving a milquetoast, "My tummy feels aren't super into it and I don't know why?" while giving personal context. Is that really what we're doing.
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Aug 14, 2020 07:29
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Literally no one is saying you're not disabled enough, take a step back my guy.
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Aug 14, 2020 07:30
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The role of ableism in media is a huge one, to be honest. I will say that TTRPGs in particularly have been bad at any sort of positive disability representation, and that disability rep tends towards invisibility rather than even negative representation. Like, if you want to play a game without combat wheelchairs, that option exists, it is the default assumption. If you want to play a game with combat wheelchairs, on the other hand, you would have had to make it yourself. Now, there's an option out there for folks to use if they want it in their game. And yes, cure narratives are especially fraught because of how they interact with this idea of invisibility. Disabled people are only allowed to exist so that their disability may be removed (and usually after some horrible tragedy made them disabled, which is presented as the worst thing a person can be). Like, yes, disabled people don't want their disability to cause them pain or prevent them from accessing opportunities. The former is a more complicated topic, but the latter is solved not by removing disability, but by removing barriers to accessibility, and in the doing confront the invisible ableism behind their barriers. Like, no one here would argue that the way to stop cisheternormative bigotry is to "cure" the queers. I think we're all clear that queer people being queer is actually dope and good. It's important to start thinking about disabled people in a similar fashion. Again, just to be clear, I'm not erasing the pain caused by some disabilities. Like, hell, my depression causes me an excessive amount of emotional pain every single day. I don't want to stop being depressed, though, I just want to help mediate that pain, which I do with the aid of therapy, drugs, and a supportive social network. Similar solutions exist for most other forms of disability-induced pain, and when there isn't, well, that's just a case for being more understanding and empathic. edit: Also, yes, I do feel comfortable speaking for the broader disabled community because of my own disability, the disability of my romantic partner, and the degree to which we both engage with the disability rights movement.
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Aug 14, 2020 07:37
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yeah it literally doesn't matter. I'm a black dude, sometimes I'm fine with a game or entertainment that grapples with racism, sometimes I want absolutely nothing to do with my entertainment bringing up something i deal with every day. I figure disabled people are the same, sometimes they might want to have their character represent them and their day to day life, or sometimes they might not want to engage with it in entertainment.
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Aug 14, 2020 07:45
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I'm the only poster saying, "Hey this is/was my disability" and I'm being dogpiled for vaguely not liking an article. Of course I'm gonna get defensive. I'm sure you mean better but your messaging isn't any better than the people who make fun of me for having a limp. "Haha look at him, he walks funny." Specifically when we're talking about physical mobility issues. You're actually even going one worse by accusing me of some kind of issue cause I spent years of painful surgery and physical therapy so now I only sometimes need a cane. What the actual gently caress.
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Aug 14, 2020 07:45
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Xiahou Dun posted:I'm the only poster saying, "Hey this is/was my disability" and I'm being dogpiled for vaguely not liking an article. There are subtleties and distinctions here that are important to delve into, but also I do not have the mental reserves to get into those details tonight.
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Aug 14, 2020 07:53
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Xiahou Dun posted:Although there is, you know, literal healing magic. This is a statement that, to me anyway, deserves to get piled on about. Like sure yes there is healing magic in the world of the forgotten realms. Pull it a step back, It's still a game, being played by real people who might want to be a badass in a wheelchair in their elfgame. I can't speak to the second part of that post wrt your personal experiences. But that first sentence(and moths initial reply) is imo a lovely response to that supplement regardless of your personal history. There is a Wizard who decided he liked being an Otter, so he stays polymorphed despite probably being powerful enough to reverse it, to his "true form" or whatever. The magic existing doesn't mean everyone would want to take this same path.
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Aug 14, 2020 08:10
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Let me try to rephrase : As someone who was pretty disabled and is now just kind of, I found the article very tone deaf. I'm a total fan of like hover-wheel-chairs with pintel guns or whatever if people want them. Hell, that's just kicking rad in general. But the article didn't have the nuance I wanted and felt very *pat pat* you get something too little cripple, and that set my teeth on edge. And then you guys turning me saying "as a disabled person, I'm not the biggest fan of this article" into some kind of argument made me get hella defensive. Especially trying to psycho-analyze me. Ever walk with a cane? It's basically doing a push-up with ever step. Ever have your nose broken because someone kicked your cane out from under you to get a train seat? It loving hurts. (Happened 3 times.) Or how about security confiscating your cane cause they thought it might be a weapon at the beginning of important conference so you have to double-up on your pain meds while who hold back tears of pain so you can get through the day? How to this day you have to plan exactly how many times you can go up and down some stairs before the dreaded specter of the leg-brace and the cane need to come back? You see why I might be slightly touchy about people telling me about my own opinion on the topic of ableism?
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Aug 14, 2020 08:30
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I get how one could get the feeling that it's too complementary of the people who supported and tweeted about it or whatever. But like a disabled person made this Supplement. And your and moths initial response was p much "lol magic can fix it" Which is imo complete bullshit as a critique of the concept.
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Aug 14, 2020 08:40
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Not gonna put words in moth's mouth but speaking for me it was : "Lol in-setting magic has been shown to be able to solve these issues trivially" (Comedic introduction high-lighting how tonedeaf it is.) Followed by actual points.
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Aug 14, 2020 08:44
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