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habeasdorkus posted:It 100% is grognardy. Which is why going overboard with it in a "waaaah, D&D mechanics don't work like that!" way is real silly and people should not do that. But I like roughly knowing what the characters are capable of based upon their D&D stats, and it's neat to see the mechanics used in storytelling. Yeah, it's a fun puzzle and thing to idly bullshit about.
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Aug 12, 2020 23:24
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AnoHito posted:This is also the guy who came up with Chlorine Elementals, after all. To be fair, V implies that elementals beyond the classic four are known about, they're just gauche.
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Aug 13, 2020 00:27
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I'm actually starting to wonder if Rich has Implosion and Destruction mixed up in his head. Like I mentioned before, Implosion is a strictly worse choice than Destruction, in that it does nothing on a successful fort save. And, in this strip, Redcloak says that he is "using the spell necessary to prevent you from being resurrected". Destruction prevents resurrection, Implosion does not.
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Aug 13, 2020 01:10
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Gynovore posted:I'm actually starting to wonder if Rich has Implosion and Destruction mixed up in his head. Like I mentioned before, Implosion is a strictly worse choice than Destruction, in that it does nothing on a successful fort save. And, in this strip, Redcloak says that he is "using the spell necessary to prevent you from being resurrected". Destruction prevents resurrection, Implosion does not. Destruction (the spell), oddly, isn't a domain spell for Destruction (the domain). It's plausible that he simply hadn't prepared it, but did have Implosion in his Destruction (domain) slot.
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Aug 13, 2020 01:15
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Huh, that matches the scene a lot better. When the remastered edition comes out, i expect this to be corrected via CGI! 
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Aug 13, 2020 04:44
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Gynovore posted:I'm actually starting to wonder if Rich has Implosion and Destruction mixed up in his head. Like I mentioned before, Implosion is a strictly worse choice than Destruction, in that it does nothing on a successful fort save. And, in this strip, Redcloak says that he is "using the spell necessary to prevent you from being resurrected". Destruction prevents resurrection, Implosion does not. A good Watsonian explanation might be that he cast Destruction but called out "Implosion" just to mess with Durkon, similar to how Elan once "cast" Celestial Sloth on Sabine or V "cast" Sonic(?) back in Cliffport.
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Aug 13, 2020 04:49
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Daikloktos posted:Following this thread for a decade +giantitp safaris and reading grognards.txt twice it's really embarassing that I need clarification here, but what precisely is the deal with Orcus He came up a few time in a number of different D&D campaigns I played in. (Either a cleric of Orcus, a follower of Orcus or the big O himself near the end of the Savage Tide campaign.) And EVERY time he showed up, someone called him Dorkus Malorcus, because even though he should be a super threatening Demon Prince, it’s still worth using a Simpsons joke to zing him.
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Aug 13, 2020 14:38
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Oh yeah orcus that's the god of orcs obviously
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Aug 13, 2020 15:13
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TheAceOfLungs posted:A good Watsonian explanation might be that he cast Destruction but called out "Implosion" just to mess with Durkon, similar to how Elan once "cast" Celestial Sloth on Sabine or V "cast" Sonic(?) back in Cliffport. There was actually a rule for this. I think it might have involved a feat, or just been a character quirk, but in Paizo’s Shackled City campaign for 3.5 ed D&D there was one NPC who would deliberately call out the wrong names of spells before he cast them. Like he said “Melfs Acid Arrow” before he casts Disintegration. In so doing he gave you like a -2 or -4 on the check to Counterspell it. So there is a precedent for it. Shugojin posted:If we're looking for a flaw of Xykon's that will lead to his downfall I don't see it being anything other than his complete dismissal of other beings. Hell, the MitD is already rebelling and marking off random doors that no one's gone into, it's gonna get a lot worse when it decides to stop him. I know this is from a few pages back, but I think everyone is overlooking Xyklon’s biggest flaw. He has no friends. And I know people might think that’s Care Bear logic that Friendship is the greatest magic of all, but it’s actually super relevant. Who is in Xyklon’s corner? A cleric who will destroy him the second his use has been fulfilled? A monster who will absolutely be swayed by a better argument? A bunch of minions who would probably run away if Xyklon can’t Meteor Swarm them? The only person who would have unquestionably had his back was that Necromancer. And when she got eaten by her abominations, Xyklon just shrugged and never investigated it further. I know people might think it’s naive to think of friendship and loyalty as being strengths, but it’s just like that quote from Futurama. “I’m an 80’s guy. When I say you are my friend that means for $20 I will beat you with a pool que until your retinas detach.” And that ruthlessness that makes Xyklon so dangerous will be his undoing.
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Aug 13, 2020 15:24
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It's one of the things that made the Vector Legion so effective.
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Aug 13, 2020 15:46
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The Question IRL posted:Xyklon Xykon. No L. His name is not an edgy Holocaust reference.
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Aug 13, 2020 15:56
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The Question IRL posted:He came up a few time in a number of different D&D campaigns I played in. (Either a cleric of Orcus, a follower of Orcus or the big O himself near the end of the Savage Tide campaign.) Now I want to be a cleric of Big O. Start every battle with "it's showtime!" Use a big ol piston punch to finish people off. Ye Not Guilty
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Aug 13, 2020 16:02
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That's a very good points by The Question IRL. There was some joke about there being 14 different factions with stakes in this conflict. Xykon all by his lonesome is one of those factions. Being a cunning, ruthless, more or less optimized epic level lich is a big game. But when you are facing off against pantheons of gods, alliances of evil outsiders, etc, it can easily stop being enough.
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Aug 13, 2020 16:41
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Colonel Cool posted:It's one of the things that made the Vector Legion so effective. One of my favorite minor scenes is when Malack expresses his grievances to Tarquin, the two of them discuss it like reasonable adults, then Tarquin apologizes and resolves to change his behavior. I think it's the one and only instance of two reasonable adults talking out their problems in the entire strip, and of course it happens between two of the top five evilest (mortal) characters.
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Aug 13, 2020 17:06
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oobey posted:One of my favorite minor scenes is when Malack expresses his grievances to Tarquin, the two of them discuss it like reasonable adults, then Tarquin apologizes and resolves to change his behavior. Roy gets some adult moments after being raised.
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Aug 13, 2020 17:14
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oobey posted:One of my favorite minor scenes is when Malack expresses his grievances to Tarquin, the two of them discuss it like reasonable adults, then Tarquin apologizes and resolves to change his behavior. Years before that, rich wrote a post on the website about good rpg writing. He's taken that whole section down now so I'm going on memory He had two ridiculously powerful liches each of whom had armies expanding and seizing land. His players had the idea of trying to play the two liches off against each other, but he had written the liches as long term friends who swapped spells and plans and just talked. So when they brought one lich circumstantial evidence the other was plotting against him, and then they just talked it out, then he killed the pcs
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Aug 13, 2020 17:32
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I never noticed before that Julia's line of "My life never ceases finding new and exciting ways to disappoint" is something that Roy has said, word for word. I think also Eugene said it at some point too? That's a nice subtle bit of Greenhilt family characterization.
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Aug 13, 2020 17:48
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Ponsonby Britt posted:I never noticed before that Julia's line of "My life never ceases finding new and exciting ways to disappoint" is something that Roy has said, word for word. I think also Eugene said it at some point too? That's a nice subtle bit of Greenhilt family characterization. Roy: https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0234.html and I can't remember if/where Eugene said it.
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Aug 13, 2020 17:55
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The Question IRL posted:
That's pretty much what I meant. He just totally dismisses the worth of all other beings (and so he has no friends).
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Aug 13, 2020 18:08
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Shugojin posted:That's pretty much what I meant. He just totally dismisses the worth of all other beings (and so he has no friends). I don't think he dismisses the worth of other beings at all, even if he is one of the most powerful non-deity beings in the setting. He keeps Redcloak and the MitD around, frequently uses hoards of minions, and was willing to recruit Tsukiko instead of killing her. He also consistently pays attention to Redcloak's advice in dire situations, like against Soon or powered up V. He even respects O'Chul, based on his speech to V. It's not that he doesn't believe other creatures have worth, it's just that he's incredibly selfish and only cares about them so long as they're benefiting or amusing him.
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Aug 13, 2020 18:27
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I’m wondering if there’s going to be some breaking point where someone serving under Xykon decides that potentially dying to him would be preferable to the risk of him not being able to control the Snarl for his “become king of the world” plan.
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Aug 13, 2020 18:35
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Taciturn Tactician posted:I don't think he dismisses the worth of other beings at all, even if he is one of the most powerful non-deity beings in the setting. He keeps Redcloak and the MitD around, frequently uses hoards of minions, and was willing to recruit Tsukiko instead of killing her. He also consistently pays attention to Redcloak's advice in dire situations, like against Soon or powered up V. He even respects O'Chul, based on his speech to V. It's not that he doesn't believe other creatures have worth, it's just that he's incredibly selfish and only cares about them so long as they're benefiting or amusing him. He recognizes that the action economy is a real bitch to overcome by yourself.
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Aug 13, 2020 18:44
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Regalingualius posted:I’m wondering if there’s going to be some breaking point where someone serving under Xykon decides that potentially dying to him would be preferable to the risk of him not being able to control the Snarl for his “become king of the world” plan. Even odds it's Greyview. Dog's already ready to suffer and die anyway.
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Aug 13, 2020 18:48
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Taciturn Tactician posted:I don't think he dismisses the worth of other beings at all, even if he is one of the most powerful non-deity beings in the setting. He keeps Redcloak and the MitD around, frequently uses hoards of minions, and was willing to recruit Tsukiko instead of killing her. He also consistently pays attention to Redcloak's advice in dire situations, like against Soon or powered up V. He even respects O'Chul, based on his speech to V. It's not that he doesn't believe other creatures have worth, it's just that he's incredibly selfish and only cares about them so long as they're benefiting or amusing him. I mean like, intrinsic rights and respect worth. Not "beep boop you produce service of value" worth. 
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Aug 13, 2020 18:52
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The Question IRL posted:I know this is from a few pages back, but I think everyone is overlooking Xyklon’s biggest flaw. He has no friends. that scene where redcloak tells him about it is really interesting, he's guarded in a way that he hasn't ever been before
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Aug 13, 2020 21:17
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One thing I didn't notice before: Minrah seems to be using Durkon's hammer of thunderbolts, which means he handed it off to her beforehand in order to show up unarmed to his confrontation with Redcloak.
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Aug 14, 2020 03:50
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ikanreed posted:Actually it was the second casting that had dire ramifications. Technically it's the third if (SoD spoilers) you count Redcloak casting Disintegrate on his brother in Start of Darkness. Which, while it did not prevent Xykon's death because big X was immune to positive energy backstabs anyway, was the last nail in the coffin of Redcloak ever abandoning The Plan.
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Aug 14, 2020 04:50
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Who What Now posted:Technically it's the third if (SoD spoilers) you count Redcloak casting Disintegrate on his brother in Start of Darkness. Which, while it did not prevent Xykon's death because big X was immune to positive energy backstabs anyway, was the last nail in the coffin of Redcloak ever abandoning The Plan. whoa. disintegrate is sort of pivotal, isn't it, as something that should make problems go away, but really, really doesn't.
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Aug 14, 2020 05:55
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sebmojo posted:whoa. disintegrate is sort of pivotal, isn't it, as something that should make problems go away, but really, really doesn't.
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Aug 14, 2020 06:40
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Let's not forget how Evil V used it to finish off the zombie dragon head after she used Familicide on it. Incidentally, thread, I have only joined you recently, but tell me, were people horrified when that scene happened? I know I was when I first read it. Same for the revelation that the Draketooth clan was related to them.
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Aug 14, 2020 11:02
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sebmojo posted:whoa. disintegrate is sort of pivotal, isn't it, as something that should make problems go away, but really, really doesn't. Well, it's not even an explosion of any sort, so that's to be expected. paradoxGentleman posted:Let's not forget how Evil V used it to finish off the zombie dragon head after she used Familicide on it. I definitely paused for a minute on those pages. Even setting the indiscriminate killing of so many aside, there was no way that Familicide wasn't going to be a catastrophic mistake that would come back to haunt V. The payoff being the loss of all the defenders of one of the gates was a big, "oh gently caress" moment. I do like the hint at what was to come on that Familicide page with the centaur/dragon. Rich was showing us even then that yep, hybrids are a thing here and Familicide targets through them too. And what species do half dragons tend to have for their other half?
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Aug 14, 2020 12:39
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I wasn't reading along with a community, but I was really taken aback by familycide when I got to it. My reaction wasn't much different than V's partner in the comic. It made it a lot easier to watch V get ragdolled by Xykon, tho.
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Aug 14, 2020 12:55
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paradoxGentleman posted:Let's not forget how Evil V used it to finish off the zombie dragon head after she used Familicide on it. The thread was pretty shocked, yeah.
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Aug 14, 2020 13:05
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That was the coolest sequence until the Durkon stuff started cooking off.
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Aug 14, 2020 13:37
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Thanks for the link! Man, I can't believe there were people defending V's actions as "not that bad all things considered"
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Aug 14, 2020 14:12
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You know, Miko was the only one to interrogate whether killing a dragon who had done nothing to anyone was moral. Rich was probably planning that far ahead
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Aug 14, 2020 14:22
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I reread that sequence recently, and the thing that I had forgotten was just how evil the dragon was. I forgot she had already escalated from killing child to murdering (and then infinitely torturing) entire immediate family. Obviously V escalated even further to killing all family, but it was a neat example of violence begetting violence.
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Aug 14, 2020 14:31
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In true Miko fashion, she justified it immediately upon being told it was chromatic.
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Aug 14, 2020 14:32
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Having read how the paladin got his scar I was amazed by how Miko fell into the same exact self-righteous pit the bad paladin did despite having seen it all play out how it did
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Aug 14, 2020 14:50
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Shugojin posted:Having read how the paladin got his scar I was amazed by how Miko fell into the same exact self-righteous pit the bad paladin did despite having seen it all play out how it did As always for Miko Miyazaki, "the difference is I'm right"
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Aug 14, 2020 16:17
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