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Class3KillStorm posted:Deep Red never connected with me the way Tenebre did, and I don't find that I "respect" it as opposed to really liking it, like I do with Suspiria. Of the Argento films that are generally regarded as the "top tier," that's always the one that left me coldest. (Personally I prefer The Bird with the Crystal Plumage and Opera to it.) Agreed, I didn’t love Deep Red. There are some very strong, powerful scenes and it’s still very stylish but it’s not my bag. Partially that’s because I trend toward the real insane, over the top Italian horror and giallo films that basks in technicolor gore, humor, and very loud rock soundtracks. The music in Deep Red felt a bit bizarre, it’s a bit underwhelming, big shout out to the amazing head smash tho and the characters wear out their welcome but I certainly respect it and the beautiful way things are framed throughout. That being said, Dead Alive by a mile. It’s so gleeful and disgusting, love every horrible second.
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Aug 14, 2020 02:31
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WeaponX posted:That being said, Dead Alive by a mile. It’s so gleeful and disgusting, love every horrible second.
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Aug 14, 2020 04:45
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Larry Cohen’s Q (The Winged Serpent) vs. Mario Bava’s A Bay of Blood My second time with Q. I think its a drat near tearjerkingly amazing recreation of the look and feel of NYC and NYers I grew up with. Like it strikes with me in such a way. Cohen seems so good at that kind of thing. Just making very authentic, natural films and characters. What feels off is that his horror always feels like this weird add on to me. Its like an episode of Law & Order where the killer happens to be a dragon. My other problem is Cohen seemed to like playing with bad people as protagonists, and while this is probably a bit ahead of his time its also presented in an odd way. Michael Moriarity is great, but he’s also playing a repugnant piece of poo poo. Like there’s no reason he has to be a domestic abuser and throw around racial slurs casually. He could have just been a selfish scoundrel and I would have had a guilt free laugh at him. But Cohen goes that extra mile. And i guess maybe that was him trying to show an idea that this horror stuff affects more than just good people and sometimes bad people fit into the fix or something. But its a weird thing to engage with as a viewing experience. Still, Q is a fun and engaging piece that I can see watching a third time easily. Bay of Blood is interesting. As you all know I hate Friday the 13th and I largely hate slashers and giallos. So I can certainly see why people thought I’d dislike this. But I think while I can obviously see what Ft13th took from this and it has obvious foots in both those subgenres, it also avoids some of the pitfalls. I don’t hate the Friday the 13th movies because they have gorey murders. I hate them because in many cases that’s ALL they have and thus those murders are the center experienced with glee and strung together loosely with something resembling a story and characters. But there’s a real story here. The murders are a big part and I can see why they would have been shocking at the time but they’re parts of the bigger story and done with purpose so feel less vulgar to me than the slashers that were inspired by it. And unlike a lot of the gallo films, the movie isn’t built on the investigation and mystery of the murders in a way that never really pays off or a whodunit that can’t be solved. The murder plot is twisted and complicated but it reveals itself to the audience instead of asking them to guess at it, and those slasher murders probably replace a lot of that mystery/investigation I find don’t seem worth it in many other gallo. So I thought this film was much better than both the sub genres it has feet in. But I didn’t love it either. The plot was maybe overly complicated and the characters maybe overly thin. I think the teenager killing spree was a bit of a distraction in its placement as well. But I think it all largely held together and I’m actually curious to sit down and give it a rewatch before my rental runs out. Maybe when I’m a bit more alert. So which way am I voting? I’m really not sure. Right now I’d say I’m leaning towards Q but I do think I’m gonna try and do that rewatch to see if I can follow the unraveling of the plot a little more clearly this time. I think I could see myself flipping back and forth on this and since I got it done so early I have all week to decide.
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Aug 14, 2020 05:49
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I can't find a copy of the full Deep Red and it makes me very sad.
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Aug 14, 2020 08:18
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I caught the first few minutes of Q last night, for the first time as an adult. I don't think I've ever seen shots like when the blood hits individuals in a crowd before. Usually a crowd means it's stock footage and they're "safe" or they're extras and something big will happen. It was seriously creepy. There was something genuinely unique about seeing a private horror moment play out as someone's surrounded by an oblivious crowd.
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Aug 14, 2020 12:36
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STAC Goat posted:I can't find a copy of the full Deep Red and it makes me very sad. No fear, I have the uncut original version ready to stream tonight. Debbie Does Dagon posted:
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Aug 14, 2020 13:00
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Deep Red vs Braindead AKA Dead Alive, FRIDAY on the CineD Discord 
With special guests Frankenweenie and The Shape of Water 
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Aw heck yeah, I was going to lament that I can't get A Bay of Blood streaming anywhere, but I just got my library card and now it's Bava time 
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Aug 14, 2020 13:54
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This poster of Braindead is both wonderful and deeply inaccurate
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Aug 14, 2020 15:23
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Q is a spectacle of performance and Bay of Blood is a spectacle of imagery. Really tough call here.
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Aug 14, 2020 17:01
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Shrecknet posted:Again, I haven't seen Deep Red yet, but I can guaran-drat-tee there isn't a single line as beautifully written or preformed as "Oh Fernando! Your mother ate my dog!" You misspelled "I kick arse for the Lord!" there, but to be fair the keys are right next to each other.
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Aug 14, 2020 17:42
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Well nobody does a little dance like Daria Nicolodi's in Dead Alive.
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Aug 14, 2020 17:45
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I will probably end up voting for Braindead, that last act is just way too much fun. Let's not pretend that this doesn't happen in Deep Red though https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UE8oWEq2c6M
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Aug 14, 2020 18:05
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Larry Cohen's Q vs. Mario Bava's A Bay of Blood STAC Goat nailed it describing Q as an episode of Law and Order where the killer is a dragon (and the fact that Cohen plays this straight, allowing his characters to come to believe it very quickly rather than wasting time on a "convince the skeptics" plotline is a testament to how strong the concept is executed). This is a blast from start to finish, driven by the powerhouse Michael Moriarty performance, playing an absolute scumbag who dares you to like him -- it's for this reason that his more unforgiveable traits don't bother me as much. This guy is as scummy as they come and you're loving stuck with him. It's absurd, yet often hysterical. Surprisingly gory, and all around impressive in its ambition. Then we have A Bay of Blood. As should be expected from Bava it's overwhelmingly stylish (few other horror filmmakers capture the expressive power of the human eye like him). The killings are brutal yet often so absurd you have to gawk -- from the beginning with the old woman in the wheelchair getting kicked in the gut to the final twist ending -- and Bava's editing is whipfast enough to give each one that second it needs to resonate before cutting to the next. Love that drum soundtrack with the In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida soundalike bass riff that plays through half the movie. Where it loses me is getting bogged down in plot. That could work, except none of the characters feel fleshed out enough to care, they lack quirks and all carry the same degree of sinister seriousness that feels samey. Their deaths almost interchangeable and the revelations of who kills who almost meaningless. Still, complaints aside, this is a solid proto-slasher. Not top tier Bava but it's got all the flare of his prime era work nevertheless. My vote (and heart) however belongs to Q. All hail Quetzacoatl.
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Aug 14, 2020 18:09
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Debbie Does Dagon posted:I will probably end up voting for Braindead, that last act is just way too much fun. Let's not pretend that this doesn't happen in Deep Red though Great scene but again the music choice is  and not in a fun Italian genre movie way
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Aug 14, 2020 18:16
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Basebf555 posted:Well nobody does a little dance like Daria Nicolodi's in Dead Alive. I am so in love with her in that movie. I'll come rewatch DR and DA tonight but the more I think about it the less I can imagine voting for Dead Alive.
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Aug 14, 2020 18:16
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Once the Deep Red score clicks with you, you can't not love it. It's just a jammin good time.
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Aug 14, 2020 18:20
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Y’know. It’s honestly funny how Altered States ends up going against a werewolf movie. That’s a really good pairing.
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Aug 14, 2020 18:26
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Debbie Does Dagon posted:No fear, I have the uncut original version ready to stream tonight. Whelp, guess I'm skipping baseball tonight since Brain Dead is another hard to get. You the best.
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Aug 14, 2020 19:15
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TrixRabbi posted:Y’know. It’s honestly funny how Altered States ends up going against a werewolf movie. That’s a really good pairing. Yeah they're way more directly comparable films than you would expect from the titles/premises.
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Aug 14, 2020 20:13
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Random aside, but if once this tournament completes we decide to do a second director's tournament, excluding say the Elite Eight or even Sweet Six-scream director from competition, here's a preliminary list of notable horror directors who got left out this first time around: Eli Roth, Charles Band, William Friedkin, Lloyd Kaufman, Jean Rollin, Jesus Franco, Herbert L Strock, Fred Olen Ray, Richard Stanley, Shinya Tsukamoto, Gore Verbinski, Ruggero Deodato, Joe D'Amato, Hideo Nakata, M. Night Shyamalan, Sergio Martino, Tom Holland and Jen & Sylvia Soska. edit: Director's defeated in the first round: Ti West, Park Chan-wook, Michele Soavi, Mary Lambert, Wes Craven, Terence Fischer, Abel Ferrara, Koji Shiraishi, Lucky McKee, Frank Henenlotter, Alexandre Aja, Don Coscarelli, Clive Barker, Mike Flanagan, Ed Wood, James Wan, Lamberto Bava, Jacques Tourneur, Yoshiaki Kawajiri, Herschell Gordon Lewis, Karyn Kusama, Robert Rodriguez, William Lustig, Rob Zombie, Tod Browning, Kim Jee-woon, Jack Arnold, Kiyoshi Kurosawa, Adam Wingard TrixRabbi fucked around with this message at 20:52 on Aug 14, 2020 |
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Aug 14, 2020 20:40
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TrixRabbi posted:
well, maybe not him
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Aug 14, 2020 20:45
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We can continue to forget Eli Roth. I think I'll nominate Kubrick with The Shining, Eyes Wide Shut, and A Clockwork Orange. I thought he was a bit tenuous before, but I don't think he'd be completely out of place now.
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Aug 14, 2020 20:46
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I'd replace Eli Roth with William Castle.
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Aug 14, 2020 20:51
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I'd down in theory for a Directors NIT but also bear in mind that by my math we'll finish the 2nd rd on Sept 3rd, the Sweet Sixteen to Sept 17th, Elite Eight to the 24th, the Final Four on Oct 1st. So we'll be playing our finals in October when we'll all be doing our Halloween marathons. So the next tourney should wait until at least Nov and I'd say even January.
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Aug 14, 2020 20:54
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STAC Goat posted:I'd down in theory for a Directors NIT but also bear in mind that by my math we'll finish the 2nd rd on Sept 3rd, the Sweet Sixteen to Sept 17th, Elite Eight to the 24th, the Final Four on Oct 1st. So we'll be playing our finals in October when we'll all be doing our Halloween marathons. So the next tourney should wait until at least Nov and I'd say even January. Good call.
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Aug 14, 2020 20:55
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TrixRabbi posted:Random aside, but if once this tournament completes we decide to do a second director's tournament, excluding say the Elite Eight or even Sweet Six-scream director from competition, here's a preliminary list of notable horror directors who got left out this first time around: Let's not forget Ben Wheatley, he has at least 3 horrors under his belt. Nigel Bach! Bad Ben, which is still on my list.
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Aug 14, 2020 22:01
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I know I'm later on this but... god drat Vertigo. I can't stop running it through my mind and discovering new stuff. You could say I'm feeling kind of obsessed with it.
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Aug 14, 2020 23:36
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Haven’t you heard? It’s the greatest film of all time.
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Aug 14, 2020 23:52
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I mean I knew it’s rep. But... drat.
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Aug 15, 2020 00:10
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TrixRabbi posted:Haven’t you heard? It’s the greatest film of all time. I'm glad it's surpassed Citizen Kane, at least in terms of topping meaningless polls. It holds up a lot more.
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Aug 15, 2020 01:34
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Deep Red vs Braindead AKA Dead Alive Braindead wins. Deep Red hurt a lizard. What is more interesting, for me at least, is the story behind the character of Massimo. You have a femme presenting character with conspicuous upper lip hair, a dubbed over masculine voice, whilst being portrayed by a cis woman, Geraldine Hooper. A quick look at Google doesn't really flesh out the character very much. If Massimo is mentioned at all, it's simply as "transvestite lover" or something to that effect. What intrigues me about the character of Massimo, is that they appear in a film which is constantly scolding masculine characters for being effeminate, or even gay, both under the guise of humour and without. First, we have the arm-wrestling scene, where women's liberation is jokingly shown to be an emasculating force. Then there is this exchange shortly afterward: Gianna: You may not believe me, but I don't have a steady boyfriend right now. Marcus: Me neither. Gianna: I should hope not! Marcus: I meant a girlfriend! Gianna: That's why you're always so jumpy. When Carlo is discovered to be in a relationship with Massimo, he refers to himself scoldingly as a "human being". The scene, though tense with homophobia, is oddly touching. Marcus demonstrates that he still loves his friend, and Massimo is shown to be a caring, healing force in Carlo's life. If the film left the relationship there, I think it would stand as a brief shining light of imperfect representation. There are two things which complicate it for me though. First, Carlo is revealed to be partly responsible for the deaths, because of his overbearing mother. Suddenly it all becomes clear that his sexual preference isn't just innocent representation, it's a puzzle piece demonstrating how "damaged" he is, and how his relationship with his mother has driven him towards various deviant acts. Second, I want to get into the headspace of '70s Italian cinema, and because I don't have that knowledge and experience, how Massimo is crafted seems off to me. Was the idea to cast a cis woman as a queer coded character a creative choice, a political choice, was it just impossible to convince other actors to take the role, was there an attempt to find other actors? If it's a creative choice, does it play into the wider theme of emasculation? I know from experience with some Spanish speaking cultures, that to be penetrated is to become female, within the understanding of the culture. Is it the same in '70s Italy, and is this what Argento is saying by casting a cis woman? I suppose you could reduce all of these questions down to saying it was a long time ago, and the knowledge wasn't there, and even if it was it was, it was within the framework of systematic repression. When I saw Massimo during the stream, the first thing I clocked was the prominent hair on the upper lip, and I wanted to know who this precious genderfuck pioneer was. Then the dominoes of realisation began to fall, that what I was witnessing was a pastiche that was not meant for my eyes. Massimo was crafted by the filmmakers to be meaningful for someone like Marcus, someone whose masculinity feels threatened, and clearly feels disturbed in Massimo's presence. It's a chilling, disappointing feeling, but I still feel oddly happy that Massimo exists within the film, even if the potential motives fill me with dread.
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Aug 15, 2020 16:15
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Profondo Rosso vs Dead Alive This might be the first time I've seen the extended, uncut version, and while those extra 30 minutes don't radically change the movie, they give it more room to breathe. That room is mostly used by the lovely Daria Niccolodi to charm the hell out of everyone, but it also extends the scenes of most victims and, importantly, that of Massimo. DDD's post above brings up an interesting aspect of the movie that I hadn't given that much thought to previously. I'm hesitant to give noted creep Dario Argento the benefit of the doubt when it comes to having good intentions, but taking it at face value, I don't necessarily see Carlo's relationship with Massimo as an indicator of emotional damage, leading to his role in the murders. To me, his relationship actually made him into a much more tragic character. He's trying to protect his disturbed mother, is himself disturbed by what he had to witness, he's trying to keep it together and only lets his lover see his true emotions. I felt bad when he died, and what a death that was. On a grander scheme of things, the more I watch the movie the more I love it. Calling movies dreamlike is such an old hat, but I have rarely seen a movie succeed so spectacularly at feeling like a dream without making a big deal about it. People call Suspiria dreamlike, and I can see it, but Deep Red does it much better. You ever have those nights where you drift in and out of sleep, and your dreams are sort of linked to each other in a way that makes no sense when you're awake again? Deep Red is like that. The Blue Bar and its surroundings, including (as the stream yesterday noted) the extras, feel completely off, but in a calming rather than unnerving way. The apartment overlooking the Blue Bar alley is a nightmare of occult imagery and hosed up portraits. The bathroom murder villa has completely different vibes again, and a completely overbearing huge white coral/tree. The decaying villa also feels completely different, with an inexplicable creepy girl and random imagery of animal cruelty (whats up with the 2 second shot of dogs fighing?). Also, how the hell do the characters figure out how to go to the next location? Heard about it in a book, found a random picture and so on - everything sort of makes a tiny bit of sense in the context of the dreams, but not when you actually wake up and think about it. Plus the soundtrack is just weird banger after banger, I love it. Now, Dead Alive- it's a hoot, it's very charming, it's made with utter love and great competence, but it's sort of a pastiche of things that have been seen and done before. It's like Evil Dead, it's like Return of the Living Dead, what is Deep Red like? The vote for cuter couple easily goes to Lionel and Paquita, but the better movie is Dario Argento's entry. If Jackson were to win this he would almost certainly lose next round since Dead Alive is easily his best, but Argento hasn't even pulled out the really big guns yet. married but discreet fucked around with this message at 00:00 on Aug 16, 2020 |
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Aug 15, 2020 17:44
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Dario Argento's Deep Red vs. Peter Jackson's Braindead AKA Dead Alive aka… “Be nice to your mother… just keep it healthy.” I’m super glad I showed up for the stream and watched the full Deep Red because its really such a better film than the English cut. Its not just that they make the bizarre choice to cut out Asia’s Mom from half the film and completely kill that relationship and lose some of the best parts of the film. Its also just that the movie flows better and stuff that happen make more sense or feel more appropriate than they do when a bunch of scenes are missing. Which isn’t to say Deep Red entirely makes sense. There’s definitely a very off “dream” feel to it. As married but discreet put it its like those dreams that feel natural but are filled with small little details that don’t really make sense. I still didn’t love Deep Red but I liked it a hell of a lot more than I did the first time. Its got a terrible protagonist and its that same giallo murder investigation thing where none of the clues actually make sense. But of all these films Deep Red is one of the better ones that I genuinely enjoyed. Now i just need to get continued access to a copy with Daria Nicolodi. A performance good enough for me to try and learn her name. I haven’t seen Dead Alive (as I remember it) in forever but its a film that has so many distinct and memorable parts that I’ve had these lasting memories and visuals all these years. I was a little worried it wouldn’t hold up and it would be one of those things kid me liked that I’m a little embarrassed by, but it was an absolute ball. Just a complete riot in the same vein as Evil Dead or Return of the Living Dead that I think totally lives up and has its own place with them. I mean, not as good as those classics but more than holding its own and not being some knockoff or derivative thing. Everyone’s like “I can’t believe this is the same guy who make Lord of the Rings” but honestly, I get it. There’s a poo poo ton of devotion and detail to this and while its stupid and pulp there’s nothing casual or lazy or half assed about it. Peter Jackson is a guy who loves stories about elves and dwarves and makes insanely detailed epics… and he also made really goofy horror pulp in his 20s. That makes sense to me. For the second matchup of this round I don’t know which way I’m voting. I’m vaguely leaning towards Argento though. But they’re just super different vibes that really enjoyed about equally but in different ways. And sure, I want to watch more Argento. But I’ve also been meaning to watch Bad Taste and King Kong.
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Aug 15, 2020 22:47
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married but discreet posted:Profondo Rosso vs Dead Alive I'm channeling some incredibly brain-wormed takes that I've seen directed at myself and others, so if those arguments don't leap out at you it's probably a good sign. For what it's worth, I hope that your interpretation is the correct one.
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Aug 15, 2020 23:36
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I mean, there's definitely that lovely bigoted idea that homosexuality is mental illness and tied to "predator" or "deviant" behavior or something. But I'm not sure if I got that vibe from Deep Red and I'm not familiar enough with Argento to say if that's a thing with him. At the same time I'm a cis dude so its not my place to say someone is wrong if they did.
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Aug 15, 2020 23:44
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Ken Russel's Altered States vs. Joe Dante's The Howling aka… “Altered Beast!” Well Altered States is certainly a trip. Its an engaging and good watch and I think everyone involved does a great job. I’m not sure I get it. I’m not sure I get Ken Russel. A lot of it is I think just a very trippy, visual style and like… I just don’t think that’s my groove. I don’t actually want to trip. I actually hate the idea and experience of it. Which is not to say I hated this. Part of what I like about horror is being able to appreciate scary stuff from a safe distance. But like in the end while I enjoyed this film I’m not sure I took anything from it. But I did get a good laugh out of it ending with the power of love. Bonus Trivia: Which of these things is a part of both Altered States and Howling III: The Marsupials? A) The embryonic goo of life. B) The Shroud of Turin. C) Ritualistic tribal magic. D) All of the above. Now to be fair, I’m not coming away with any great truths or deeper meaning from The Howling either. I don’t really think the Howling is a great film, but I do think its a very good werewolf film and a fun watch. Some of that is that it probably just scratches my itch. Its got that 80s horror Stephen King vibe to it. And I really appreciate that Dante just fully embraced that he was making a werewolf movie so he didn’t couch that in metaphors or use real wolves or hide the werewolves like many films do. He just devoted all his energy and effort in making werewolves and showing us them from every drat angle. Not everything necessarily works or holds up great decades later, but Dante holds nothing back and wants you wanting for nothing in the werewolf box. Now story, character, and agency? Yeah, maybe they’re a bit thin. But you got some werewolves. Also while its not as overtly funny and weird as a lot of Dante’s work there’s definitely a good touch of that part of him in the film in small, background ways. And Dick Miller. Its a subtly funny little movie. So I kind of think this one is gonna go to Russel and I won’t consider that an outrage or anything, but I think this one is going Dante for me. I just feel iike its more my drug of choice.
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Aug 16, 2020 06:45
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Council Proposal. I'm looking over the entries and I see Peter Jackson only has 3 films - Frighteners, Braindead, and Bad Taste. Maybe we should add King Kong and maybe Meet the Feebles? I'm unfamiliar with the latter but Kong seems as much horror as a lot of films in here. I dunno, just a thought because we were discussing Jackson the other night in the stream and I was surprised to see those films brought up missing. He might not make it out of this round but if he does it would be more fun to have the deeper pool, I think. Maybe not? Just a proposal. Maybe similarly Sam Raimi gets The Gift added? Not familiar with it but sounds like it fits well enough. I don't know if it complicates anything to add movies or if the math is done or what. But if its just adding another entry it seems like the way we've gone with a wide range of "what's horror?" and a big appreciation for new films it seems like the more the merrier. Just a thought. Can't sleep. Doing weird things like reading spreadsheets. Feel free to ignore me. STAC Goat fucked around with this message at 10:13 on Aug 16, 2020 |
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Aug 16, 2020 10:08
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Kong's not got a lot of horror in its bones. It's more an action adventure romance film. I don't mind the idea of adding Jackson's Kong, but there's not a whole lot of weight to it. Meet the Feebles is definitely not a horror film, unless you are afraid of puppets and quasi dark comedy dramas about a walrus cheating on a hippo with a cat while they're trying to make a TV series. Its not even a thriller like He Was A Quiet Man, which is what I'd consider on the fringe border of Horror. It's just a disturbed puppet rendition of "This is Spinal Tap." The Gift is closer as well, but I'm not sure. I'd leave that to others to hash out. I think if it was harsher, more sinister, there'd be a stronger argument for it, but there IS an argument for it.
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Aug 16, 2020 10:20
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King Kong has the giant spider sequence, which is more horror than is contained in several of Bong Joon-ho's entries combined.
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Aug 16, 2020 10:29
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Jedit posted:King Kong has the giant spider sequence, which is more horror than is contained in several of Bong Joon-ho's entries combined. If we were talking about the original, sure. That was so horrifying that it got destroyed by censors
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Aug 16, 2020 11:05
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