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Milkfred E. Moore posted:I always figured Zerus was like Char, hence why the Zerg made that their main base of operations. You and me both, sister. Every so often some stupid thing from Diablo 3 or SC2 where the people making it didn't understand what made the previous games good (like a certain movie trilogy) pops into my head and I have a lil chuckle about it.
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Aug 14, 2020 13:33
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Milkfred E. Moore posted:I don't even hate the idea of some sappy Kerrigan/Raynor romance plot, but SC2 handled it in what's probably the worst way possible. Magical space artifacts, turning the Queen of Blades into a separate entity that Kerrigan must be saved from, deinfesting Kerrigan and then she reinfests herself, she's a chosen one and turns into an actual angel to shoot lasers at Space Satan... It's so bad. Amon was so completely boring, flat, and cliche at once that I was kind of amazed at it. Like... you guys had years and years past the initial release (where all the game engineering got finished mostly) to come up with a character and his motivations and I dunno, anything beyond "I AM DARK BADMAN, I WANT TO END EXISTENCE, HOHOHO-MWAHA". Like early Final Fantasy villains were better than that. loving Mario RPG villains are better than that.
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Aug 15, 2020 03:23
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Groovelord Neato posted:Primal zerg lol Which totally went against the original satisfying simple lore. The Xel'naga found some like weird worms that did some crazy DNA stealing tricks, so they experimented on them and made them extend to like a whole species of weird DNA stealing tricks with bigger and bigger forms. They made a brain monster to centralize and be smart about poo poo, and that brain monster turned on them. Bing bong so simple, nice lil' sci-fi concept. Bit of science going wrong, the monster turning on the doctor, simple little plausible creepy bug alien concept as basis. The Primals thing shat all over that. And as the Zerg started traveling around the universe they kept stealing more DNA to make new forms, so you get the stuff we're familiar with by the time the first game starts. The idea is they didn't have stuff that was maybe familiar to us at first because they had to go around stealing DNA power like Mega Man. And the Primals for some reason have a bunch of the recognizable Zerg units in noble savage form on their home planet for some reason. Completely contradicting that. And also being dumb as hell too.
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Aug 15, 2020 03:30
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When the manual said the Zerg had 'purity of essence' what they meant was that the Zerg had a bunch of little green goo called essence.
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Aug 15, 2020 03:33
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This is in the same way that people, places, etc can be morally corrupted by exposure to a purple goo called corruption.
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Aug 15, 2020 03:33
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Zaphod42 posted:I also like how Broodwar obviously tees up the Zerg-Protoss hybrids as the big bad in the future and then SC2 is just like "nah" And you think like "Oh cool it's gonna be gross savage monsters crossed with super genius psychics". But then the Hybrids are basically just big meathead palookas who at best mumble about doom. Or at worst are just Zerg with neon lighting. And they have zero character or society beyond being Amon's mooks on top of that. They don't even have like their own buildings or whatever, they just sort of lumber at you from wherever all BOOGA BOOGA BOOGA like Scooby Doo villains. It couldn't be more obvious they were only included because they knew they had to after Brood War set them up. Grape fucked around with this message at 03:38 on Aug 15, 2020 |
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Aug 15, 2020 03:34
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Grape posted:Amon was so completely boring, flat, and cliche at once that I was kind of amazed at it. He had one interesting idea, that he was elevated into being a Xel'Naga against his will. Unfortunately, I think this is exactly one line of dialogue and not mentioned by any character again. Aw, gently caress, it's all coming back to me! The Tal'Darim! So, in the first game, they're just renegade Protoss fanatics so there can be missions where you fight the Protoss. Okay, great. Narud (Duran) needs you to steal artifacts from them to take Kerrigan out of the picture. Okay, makes sense. But then Heart of the Swarm says that the Tal'Darim were working for Narud! So, why did he need you to steal the artifacts from his own followers? No idea! Maybe it's because he didn't want to risk exposing his Hybrids before they were ready. Well, in HotS, it's theorized that he had hybrids on Char to absorb the Queen of Blades' power or something. So, he had the resources to put people on Char secretly and conduct some kind of mission, but still wanted to hire Raynor to steal the artifacts from his own people to conduct a plan he could've done himself? Anyway, then Legacy of the Void comes out and gives the Tal'Darim a different background, too.
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Aug 15, 2020 04:14
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SC1 manual appreciators unite!Grape posted:And the Primals for some reason have a bunch of the recognizable Zerg units in noble savage form on their home planet for some reason. Completely contradicting that. And also being dumb as hell too. Oh no no, it's even dumber than that. One of your advisors (Abathur?) outright state that the primal Zerg stole the player's unit designs in a matter of hours and made stronger versions of them because they're that much zergier. 
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Aug 15, 2020 06:13
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General Battuta posted:This is in the same way that people, places, etc can be morally corrupted by exposure to a purple goo called corruption. I dunno man, isn't this just "the metaphor" made manifest? none of these characters turn evil because they were exposed to corruption, they get physically corrupted because they have already been spiritually corrupted when e.g. they are betrayed and left for dead on Tarsonis or kill hundreds in a quest for vengeance Milkfred E. Moore posted:But then Heart of the Swarm says that the Tal'Darim were working for Narud! So, why did he need you to steal the artifacts from his own followers? No idea! Maybe it's because he didn't want to risk exposing his Hybrids before they were ready. Well, in HotS, it's theorized that he had hybrids on Char to absorb the Queen of Blades' power or something. So, he had the resources to put people on Char secretly and conduct some kind of mission, but still wanted to hire Raynor to steal the artifacts from his own people to conduct a plan he could've done himself? Narud is working a quadruple-cross to avoid tipping off Mengsk (his boss who actually owns the hybrids) and Kerrigan (who knows who he really is) the endless iterations of Taldarim are dumb but Starcraft has never been consistent, even in halcyon SC1: the "lost" colonies, what the zergs need Kerrigan for exactly, etc.
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Aug 15, 2020 11:14
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The zerg originally needed humans because the Protoss were capable of wrecking them due to having cool psionic powers that the zerg couldn't counter or replicate, so humans were a convenient way to add psionic powers to the swarm. Kerrigan was just the most powerful psionic they found so she got the special treatment.
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Aug 15, 2020 12:26
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Wide gulf in quality between SC1 and 2. Answering why they treated Kerrigan so well would be “because she is The Chosen One according to Ancient Prophecy to defeat The Great Evil.”
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Aug 15, 2020 15:24
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Lt. Danger posted:I dunno man, isn't this just "the metaphor" made manifest? none of these characters turn evil because they were exposed to corruption, they get physically corrupted because they have already been spiritually corrupted when e.g. they are betrayed and left for dead on Tarsonis or kill hundreds in a quest for vengeance Yeah, I said much the same upthread. Here I was thinking more about Diablo 3 with its corruption fountains spraying all over heaven.
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Aug 15, 2020 15:26
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Kanos posted:The zerg originally needed humans because the Protoss were capable of wrecking them due to having cool psionic powers that the zerg couldn't counter or replicate, so humans were a convenient way to add psionic powers to the swarm. Kerrigan was just the most powerful psionic they found so she got the special treatment. I do like how psi storm is one of the best anti-Zerg abilities in the gameplay, but it’s kind of funny that the Zerg go to such great lengths to make Kerrigan and her gameplay power is she can cast psi storm too...a lot!!
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Aug 15, 2020 15:27
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right, but the zergs never actually develop psionic powers and they don't take Kerrigan with them to Aiur
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Aug 15, 2020 16:36
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chiming in that the sc1 manual owned, as did the sc1 zerg concept. as I recall the original zerg worms pre-xel'naga were basically the larvae that hatcheries spawn
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Aug 15, 2020 16:53
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World War Mammories posted:chiming in that the sc1 manual owned, as did the sc1 zerg concept. as I recall the original zerg worms pre-xel'naga were basically the larvae that hatcheries spawn You are correct.
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Aug 15, 2020 16:55
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Lt. Danger posted:I dunno man, isn't this just "the metaphor" made manifest? none of these characters turn evil because they were exposed to corruption, they get physically corrupted because they have already been spiritually corrupted when e.g. they are betrayed and left for dead on Tarsonis or kill hundreds in a quest for vengeance Not sure what "lost" colonies refer to. The Terran colonies and the UED? Also did Kerrigan need some great purpose? I always got the feeling that she was some kind of experiment that the Overmind was super excited about, like it talks about leaving her most of her freewill. I know it talks her up as being a big deal, but I'm fine with thinking that's all she came down to in that regard. The Overmind getting hyped about a project of his. Also makes sense in that view that he isn't about to take her out to the big deal frontline thing on Aiur. Like she's still in testing. Grape fucked around with this message at 21:21 on Aug 15, 2020 |
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Aug 15, 2020 21:18
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Just remembered the Overmind was actually a good guy lol
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Aug 15, 2020 21:38
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I mean the Zerg were pretty correct to be scared of Protoss psionic bullshit since that's what ended up killing the overmind and a couple cerebrates. You just gotta wonder why the Overmind didn't deal with that stuff before planting itself firmly on Aiur. Maybe it just really needed some khaydarin crystals.
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Aug 15, 2020 22:12
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Tassadar being all "No Zeratul! Speak respect of this noble creature!" was just the worst thing.General Battuta posted:I mean the Zerg were pretty correct to be scared of Protoss psionic bullshit since that's what ended up killing the overmind and a couple cerebrates. You just gotta wonder why the Overmind didn't deal with that stuff before planting itself firmly on Aiur. Maybe he figured Kerrigan had the Dark Templar pinned down on Char, and like no way were the Protoss going to link up and get the gang back together. Unfortunately for him they did. Remember he linked minds with Zeratul at one point so along with learning where Aiur was he could have learned "oh and these dangerous dark guys are super double exiled from Aiur, and would probably be shot on sight if they went back." Grape fucked around with this message at 22:14 on Aug 15, 2020 |
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Aug 15, 2020 22:12
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Grape posted:Tassadar being all "No Zeratul! Speak respect of this noble creature!" was just the worst thing. Remember, LotV Epilogue revealed that was never actually Tassadar.
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Aug 15, 2020 22:29
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BlazetheInferno posted:Remember, LotV Epilogue revealed that was never actually Tassadar. oh yeah lol, It's almost like even the people inside the studio were like "Man that was dumb in retrospect, let's retcon the retcon"
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Aug 15, 2020 22:59
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as mentioned on a previous page the SC1 manual has the colonists go massively off-course and end up far from their original destination. however the UPL/UED still knows where they are and dispatches an invasion fleet to conquer them also according to the SC1 manual, the Overmind invades the Confederacy because they need nascent human psi powers to fight the protoss, which is why the psi emitters work and why Kerrigan is captured rather than killed. the Overmind assimilates Kerrigan then successfully invades Aiur without her or any other psi powers. Brood War retcons the zerg interest in psi emitters to be an involuntary compulsion instead I mean you can handwave any of these easily, but that's the point: you can do that for any story's loopholes. it's not that SC2 keeps changing who the Taldarim are, it's just that there's three different factions of protoss and they're all called Taldarim for some reason. Zerus is an ash world scorched by firestorms but also sustains a sufficiently complex and diverse biosphere for the zergs to assimilate to kill the xelnaga (SC1 manual), but also is a verdant if volcanic jungle world with a population of "natural" primal zergs (SC2), I guess it got better after the Overmind left. there are ten (SC1 manual) / thirteen (SC1 game) / dozens (SC2) of human colonies which may or may not be all entirely in the same star system, perhaps "counting" and "astronomy" were two of the other things lost when ATLAS went down. so on so forth
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Aug 15, 2020 23:44
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Lt. Danger posted:however the UPL/UED still knows where they are and dispatches an invasion fleet to conquer them Tracks with Capital.
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Aug 16, 2020 00:05
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Lt. Danger posted:as mentioned on a previous page the SC1 manual has the colonists go massively off-course and end up far from their original destination. however the UPL/UED still knows where they are and dispatches an invasion fleet to conquer them Why does that mean Earth loses track of them.
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Aug 16, 2020 01:38
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Lt. Danger posted:as mentioned on a previous page the SC1 manual has the colonists go massively off-course and end up far from their original destination. however the UPL/UED still knows where they are and dispatches an invasion fleet to conquer them You just tune a radio to Country & Western and home in on the strongest signal??
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Aug 16, 2020 01:53
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28 years off-course
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Aug 16, 2020 02:03
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They were in hyperspace or whatever for 28 years so that gives the UED presumably a long time to look for them.
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Aug 16, 2020 02:15
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Also like why wouldn't future mega technology Earth not be able to track four massive spaceships.
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Aug 16, 2020 02:52
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Also why do they have the exact same infantry, vehicles, and airships as the Earth people who apparently haven't been in contact for like 300 years?
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Aug 16, 2020 03:11
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jokes posted:Also why do they have the exact same infantry, vehicles, and airships as the Earth people who apparently haven't been in contact for like 300 years? The UED fleet had "Procure on site" for their equipment for some reason.
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Aug 16, 2020 03:20
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Grape posted:Also did Kerrigan need some great purpose? I always got the feeling that she was some kind of experiment that the Overmind was super excited about, like it talks about leaving her most of her freewill. I know it talks her up as being a big deal, but I'm fine with thinking that's all she came down to in that regard. The Overmind getting hyped about a project of his. I agree, if anything he massively underestimates her because she's just this curiosity to him and he's zerg god, the idea of her being special compared to the overmind is unfathomable to him. But sc2 probably shits on all that.
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Aug 16, 2020 07:06
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Zaphod42 posted:But sc2 I thought the reason the zerg wanted psionic powers is because that’s the only thing that could kill the cerebrates
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Aug 16, 2020 10:06
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sure, sure. and, you know, the primal zergs just copied the Swarm morphs in the space of, uh, two minutes or whatever, they were just that quick. it turns out that Tassadar ghost wasn't Tassadar after all, no big deal. Kerrigan reinfesting makes sense because of ~*Amon's influence*~ etc that's the thing about charitable readings - you can give them to whatever you want, whenever you want
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Aug 16, 2020 10:12
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Lt. Danger posted:the endless iterations of Taldarim are dumb but Starcraft has never been consistent, even in halcyon SC1: the "lost" colonies, what the zergs need Kerrigan for exactly, etc. This is true - and I think we talked about this last time around - but I don't really accept it. SC1 and SC2 were crafted by very different Blizzards, for better or worse, and I think the writing issues in SC1 are easier to excuse than the ones in SC2.
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Aug 16, 2020 10:17
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Milkfred E. Moore posted:This is true - and I think we talked about this last time around - but I don't really accept it. SC1 and SC2 were crafted by very different Blizzards, for better or worse, and I think the writing issues in SC1 are easier to excuse than the ones in SC2. I forget if I said it here or the deathwatch thread, but I stand by it: the difference is intent. The plots have always sucked and been riddled with holes/CORRUPTION, but pre-WoW they were just an excuse to bang your action figures together so that was fine. Like SC1's story is mostly told through the eminently skippable briefings and the occasionally bit of mission dialogue. You can ignore it all easily, and the game is cool with that, the plot only exists to make each faction fight the others and themselves. Cutscenes are saved for goofy poo poo like the beers being cooled alongside nuclear material and major plot points like the end of each campaign. In SC2 (at least WoL, never played the xpacs) the cutscenes are a flashy, constant parade of bad new characters and stupid plot developments, and the hub between each mission constantly reminds you about the dumb poo poo supposedly motivating you. Nu-Blizzard bought its own hype and thought Old-Blizzard's writing was well-remembered because it was good, not because everyone just remembers 14-year-old-cool unit descriptions and the Overmind getting wrecked in a sweet for the time FMV.
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Aug 16, 2020 10:54
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I really don’t know how you can think the very typical video game plot holes of Starcraft 1, which are mostly explained by “it’s a game” (like UED has same troops as colonists), are at all comparable to the horrible retcons and mashing of every stupid trope ever conceived that is Starcraft 2.
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Aug 16, 2020 14:33
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Big Mad Drongo posted:Like SC1's story is mostly told through the eminently skippable briefings and the occasionally bit of mission dialogue. You can ignore it all easily, and the game is cool with that, the plot only exists to make each faction fight the others and themselves. Cutscenes are saved for goofy poo poo like the beers being cooled alongside nuclear material and major plot points like the end of each campaign. Yeah this is the biggest issue. Diablo 1 and 2 didn't have great stories but had pretty straightforward ones and I wasn't interrupted every so often for a stupid cutscene (also in Diablo 2 the story being told in cutscenes wasn't yours and in 3 you're the Chosen One).
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Aug 16, 2020 14:50
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Comrayn posted:I really don’t know how you can think the very typical video game plot holes of Starcraft 1, which are mostly explained by “it’s a game” (like UED has same troops as colonists), are at all comparable to the horrible retcons and mashing of every stupid trope ever conceived that is Starcraft 2. yes, that's right - SC2 isn't bad because of these plot holes, these plot holes are bad because of SC2
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Aug 16, 2020 15:07
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Groovelord Neato posted:Yeah this is the biggest issue. Diablo 1 and 2 didn't have great stories but had pretty straightforward ones and I wasn't interrupted every so often for a stupid cutscene (also in Diablo 2 the story being told in cutscenes wasn't yours and in 3 you're the Chosen One). Diablo 3 turned into Chosen One poo poo, Starcraft 2 turned into Chosen One poo poo, WoW has no real cohesive plot so it’s spared the Chosen One poo poo I guess?
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Aug 16, 2020 15:42
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