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priznat posted:With anything automotive the amount of testing and qualification required is the main impediment to putting the latest and greatest stuff in. It’s a whole other level than consumer or even enterprise. And yet I cannot imagine it takes more time and money to validate a pre-packaged OS+skin than it does an in-house, custom-rolled OS that integrates third-party data sources that don't even work half the time. Similarly, I cannot believe that it's harder to validate a 720p screen than a 600x400 one. I mean, say what you want about Tesla's products, they are proof-positive that you don't have to put terrible tech into expensive cars. That other manufactures just opt to stick with old tech says to me that they just don't really care or bother making it a priority.
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Aug 17, 2020 21:20
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DrDork posted:And yet I cannot imagine it takes more time and money to validate a pre-packaged OS+skin than it does an in-house, custom-rolled OS that integrates third-party data sources that don't even work half the time. Honestly? I can't blame Toyota for stubbornly holding on for so long being exclusively Entune than dealing with whatever Google's idea is of long term hardware support or testing or compatibility. As far the screens, I'll just choose to believe they found an entire warehouse of those screens that were already fully spec'd and qualified for automotive use and maybe already deployed on previous fleets of vehicles. Maybe those older screens were actually designed to handle constant sun exposure and extreme temperatures whereas the equivalent 720p screens may still come at a huge premium if they come at all. No one wants to be a guy that made a decision that led to a massive automobile recall or the guy that decided to throw out millions of still functioning inventory. Tesla is a special case though because they can get away with not installing enough bolts and designing a rear bumper that acts as a dirt and snow scoop and they'll get a pat on the back from their customers when it fails. WhyteRyce fucked around with this message at 21:31 on Aug 17, 2020 |
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Aug 17, 2020 21:24
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Yeah all that stuff is supposed to work down to -40 and once it had gone through all the extra cost of qual cycles along with a huge store of them for repair parts they’re going to chonk through them until it makes sense to qual the next thing. It’s not just the testing too, everything has to be auditable and any failures go back for failure analysis. It sucks that it affects infotainment too but I guess since it’s on a power bus it can’t freak out and cause the power to go off and mess up the cruise control or something.
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Aug 17, 2020 21:30
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WhyteRyce posted:Honestly? I can't blame Toyota for stubbornly holding on for so long being exclusively Entune than dealing with whatever Google's idea is of long term hardware support or testing or compatibility. The part about this that frustrates me is that auto manufacturers don't really give a poo poo about long-term support or testing or compatibility once the car leaves the factory, either, so long as it's working well enough on day 1. A lot of auto OSes never get meaningful updates whatsoever. Compatibility worries are pretty much limited to whatever else is physically attached to the car at the time it leaves the dealership--anything else is, at most, a best effort. Can't really say I've heard of a rash of Android Auto devices crashing, either--that makes everyone look bad, after all. I can see the bit about having a sufficient stockpile of parts to provide to their service centers for a while, but it's not like that lasts forever, either, or explains why the new-spec car is paired with sad tech: they had to validate a new panel anyway, but decided to pick a $10 one instead of a $15 one. And for temp fluctuations...eh. I've had multiple "technology" bits burn out on my cars over the years. I mean, I come from the aviation industry, so I'm well and fully familiar with the concept of validation and testing and expenses for that. And that still doesn't explain the reticence for some company's approaches to tech. Audi has a reasonably(ish) priced car with an entire digital instrument panel, after all--where if it failed, you wouldn't even know how fast you were going, not just what radio station you had on. That panel is super high-res (as it needs to be), and really quite nice. So it's not like it's an insurmountable problem, it's just an area that many manufacturers don't feel is important enough to bother with.
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Aug 17, 2020 21:51
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My Honda Odyssey is a little older, but it tickles me that the navigation maps are run off of a DVD spinning in a drive below the driver's seat  And of course, I'm never going to update it because Honda wants like $90 for a new DVD and cell phones with good navigation have been invented since then
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Aug 17, 2020 22:02
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DrDork posted:it's just an area that many manufacturers don't feel is important enough to bother with. Yeah. I even kind of agree with car manufacturers. Car infotainment systems aren't really that important, IMO. In other aspects though, I think cars are a lot better than they used to be and are pretty well-engineered consumer products.
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Aug 17, 2020 22:06
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WhyteRyce posted:Well, some of it is just markup and their target market not really caring. I had a friend who bought a new Maserati a few years ago as a status symbol and it still had the old ipod parallel port as the only connector in the car That’s also because Maserati makes Chrysler look like an innovative, forward-thinking, quality-focused company. Like, everything that could be said about cars/car companies and testing/etc holds true here, but also Maserati is a special kind of “you bought this exclusively as a status symbol and to have something “rarer” than the expected German/Italian/Japanese/etc brands and not because you value sporting performance, luxury features, or cutting edge tech in the slightest” It’s actually kind of amazing how chintzy cars like the Ghibli or QP are, even when compared to something like a loving VW.
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Aug 17, 2020 22:12
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DrDork posted:And yet I cannot imagine it takes more time and money to validate a pre-packaged OS+skin than it does an in-house, custom-rolled OS that integrates third-party data sources that don't even work half the time. Tesla’s screens have huge quality control problems because they didn’t bother getting screens rated for cars iirc
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Aug 17, 2020 22:14
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evilweasel posted:Tesla’s screens have huge quality control problems because they didn’t bother getting screens rated for cars iirc The stuff I've read seemed to suggest more software bugs than direct hardware failure for the most part. And then there's the issue of Tesla trying to ramp up production like 500% over 12 months or something crazy like that that's going to hurt QC no matter what components you're putting in there.
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Aug 17, 2020 22:32
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Ok Comboomer posted:That’s also because Maserati makes Chrysler look like an innovative, forward-thinking, quality-focused company. not to get too far into carworld but Maserati and Chrysler are the same company, ha
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Aug 17, 2020 22:42
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On this automotive tech derail; the reason Tesla has radically more modern looking/performing tech is because of their almost complete vertical integration, they build their own tech. All the other auto makers have extremely long lived relationships with third party suppliers for their tech, the relationship between them is in fact so stable that neither side is ever particularly motivated to innovate, thus automotive tech generally sucks.
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Aug 17, 2020 23:01
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DrDork posted:The stuff I've read seemed to suggest more software bugs than direct hardware failure for the most part. And then there's the issue of Tesla trying to ramp up production like 500% over 12 months or something crazy like that that's going to hurt QC no matter what components you're putting in there. No they literally went “pfft who cares about automotive grade screens” and it turns out, well, because a car is a surprisingly tough environment they should: https://www.thedrive.com/tech/27989/teslas-screen-saga-shows-why-automotive-grade-matters
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Aug 17, 2020 23:31
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evilweasel posted:No they literally went “pfft who cares about automotive grade screens” and it turns out, well, because a car is a surprisingly tough environment they should: https://www.thedrive.com/tech/27989/teslas-screen-saga-shows-why-automotive-grade-matters Lol they tried to fix the screen delamination issue in hot weather by just running the A/C all of the time. That's such a typical computer programmer way to solve the problem. I'm so glad that I have a normal car that is relatively cheap and just works, even if it might not have the newest infotainment system or whatever. silence_kit fucked around with this message at 00:10 on Aug 18, 2020 |
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Aug 17, 2020 23:43
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Cygni posted:not to get too far into carworld but Maserati and Chrysler are the same company, ha I know, but I didn’t want to get into the weeds about FCA vs Daimler-Chrysler. AFAIK, Maserati was even worse before the merger.
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Aug 17, 2020 23:52
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Mass produced products are in many cases more well-engineered than boutique products.
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Aug 17, 2020 23:57
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evilweasel posted:No they literally went “pfft who cares about automotive grade screens” and it turns out, well, because a car is a surprisingly tough environment they should: https://www.thedrive.com/tech/27989/teslas-screen-saga-shows-why-automotive-grade-matters Wow, yeah, if those are the specs they were willing to accept, that is...not a great idea. Big honkin' screens exist in aviation, so it's not like it's physically impossible, but I do imagine that it would be hilariously cost prohibitive to buy them from Honeywell or similar who is used to DoD $$ contracts.
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Aug 17, 2020 23:58
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Man this thread just became like 4 of my favorite topics all at once.Malcolm XML posted:Yep they bought Intel modems nee infineon and Dialog's PMIC team iirc I think it's cost — I still firmly believe that Apple realized Qi is a garbage standard and they are going to build their own wireless charging standard and the chipset to support it, and it's going to be lightyears ahead. IIRC, some other manufacturers have already come to that realization but only Apple has the ecosystem to deploy it across 100 million devices at once. I could see GaN playing a role in that, but the integration is complicated — even the power GaN devices that are build on conventional Si wafters, IIRC, would need to have some kind of MCM action to make a true monolithic device. Can still integrate power FETs + control logic on a little WLSCP and get 100s of them on a single wafer with a well known BCD / LDMOS / whatever process. If you mean AC wall chargers... the OEM blocks are actually really well built, I think they just expect them to get cloned almost immediately. There was talk / theories that since everyone is buying USB-C / Anker / etc. chargers now separately anyways, to reduce eWaste, Apple might just stop shipping chargers and just give a voucher to go to the Fruit Stand and get one if you need one. The green part of me would love for that to happen. evilweasel posted:Tesla’s screens have huge quality control problems because they didn’t bother getting screens rated for cars iirc Which is funny because those dumb assholes didn't think about anywhere outside of Southern CA when designing their cars and approach engineering the same way most of Elon's companies do which is assuming everyone already doing it is a loving moron and can't be trusted. What a world it would have been had they gone and poached industrial / production engineering folks from Detroit and let them identify which parts of production to best automate, instead of all of it. DrDork posted:I am continuously amazed at just how bad any auto-related technology of pretty much any sort is. hosed up connection profiles, screens in $60k luxury cars that would be an embarrassment to a $100 budget phone, spinning hard drives for media storage in vehicles produced in 2020, and an obstinate insistence on using their own terrible OSes instead of just throwing a skin on top of Car Play / Android Auto. It's like they are intentionally trying to be as bad at their jobs as they possibly can be. The best I can figure is they're hoping REALLY HARD that, instead of just using your phone for navigation and everything like 99.99% of the population does, that you'll pony up the $100/yr or whatever for updated maps to their custom nav system on their custom OS that is utterly destroyed in both accuracy and routing performance by Google. I don't miss working in automotive that much, but at some point it became interesting again since 2006, probably thanks to Tesla forcing the industry to innovate. CarPlay / etc was genius though, because it finally gave an out to automakers to walk away from the problem of having to deal with this poo poo (to some degree). I think the problem right now is that lux brands, that are still selling mostly to boomers and old folks, they feel the need to not do CarPlay or Android Auto because that's not what their customers expect. And I guess, since this is the Intel thread, we remember that the latest Tesla media control unit, IIRC, is Atom-based. And I guess they still own Mobileye?
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Aug 18, 2020 00:08
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silence_kit posted:Mass produced products are in many cases more well-engineered than boutique products. Agreed, but at the time Maserati was trying to compete with VAG (Porsche, Audi), etc and in the same $50k-$150k price range.
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Aug 18, 2020 00:10
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movax posted:Man this thread just became like 4 of my favorite topics all at once. qi is trash yes. I think yes, they realize that fast charging tech is destructive to batteries and chargers are ubiquitous so need to keep including one by default. GaN on Si or even monolithic gan works for ac chargers. For on device PMIC silicon all the way. Maybe integrated into the SoC w/ the power FETs nearby using InFO or something Tesla poached a german eng firm to do just that. Only after they hosed up I think. Elon isn't wrong about the existing automakers having a lot of idiots, but Toyota is regarded as the best at manufacturing in general.
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Aug 18, 2020 00:23
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movax posted:And I guess, since this is the Intel thread, we remember that the latest Tesla media control unit, IIRC, is Atom-based. And I guess they still own Mobileye? Clearly they should be using a Qualcomm/Axx chip for that sweet, sweet sub-4 watt power:perf curve to keep them from overheating, right?
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Aug 18, 2020 00:27
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As someone that was just about to buy a Qi charger, what's wrong with the tech?
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Aug 18, 2020 00:40
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Apple technically already uses their own wireless charging standard since they use Proprietary Power Delivery Extension (PPDE) on top of Qi like Samsung does rather than just use EPP.
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Aug 18, 2020 00:52
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Rinkles posted:As someone that was just about to buy a Qi charger, what's wrong with the tech? Your mom uses it.
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Aug 18, 2020 00:55
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Rinkles posted:As someone that was just about to buy a Qi charger, what's wrong with the tech? A couple of things. For one, it's hilariously power inefficient. With misalignment between the charger and the phone, you can have power efficiency as low as 25%. That you can easily be misaligned is another issue (though more of a physical constraint than an issue exclusive to Qi tech). Wireless charging in general tends to produce a bunch of waste heat, and Qi doesn't help by trying to push as much juice as it can through at a time. The reason power efficiency matters is because a lot of that waste energy turns into heat, and heating up your battery and keeping it hot for an extended time is a great way to reduce your battery's lifespan by a good bit. I mean, no one really has a substantially better solution on the market right now, so if you really like the convenience of wireless charging then reduced battery lifespan is just a tradeoff you're going to have to accept. Though if you do your best to ensure you're aligning your phone properly it can at least reduce the impact somewhat.
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Aug 18, 2020 00:55
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DrDork posted:A couple of things. For one, it's hilariously power inefficient. With misalignment between the charger and the phone, you can have power efficiency as low as 25%. That you can easily be misaligned is another issue (though more of a physical constraint than an issue exclusive to Qi tech). Wireless charging in general tends to produce a bunch of waste heat, and Qi doesn't help by trying to push as much juice as it can through at a time. The reason power efficiency matters is because a lot of that waste energy turns into heat, and heating up your battery and keeping it hot for an extended time is a great way to reduce your battery's lifespan by a good bit. The absolute best is 60% or so https://www.wirelesspowerconsortium...n-sept-2015.pdf Even the worst wall chargers at least get 80%.
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Aug 18, 2020 01:01
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Usb-C PD has spoiled me, I don’t think I could stand how long wireless charging takes now.
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Aug 18, 2020 01:02
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Malcolm XML posted:The absolute best is 60% or so https://www.wirelesspowerconsortium...n-sept-2015.pdf Yup. I mean, I like the convenience of it and all, but the pure physics of what all needs to get done means it's hella wasteful, and that means heat, sadly.
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Aug 18, 2020 01:16
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DrDork posted:Yup. I mean, I like the convenience of it and all, but the pure physics of what all needs to get done means it's hella wasteful, and that means heat, sadly. All that talk of portless iPhone just reminds me that it would probably require a few extra power plants just in the heat losses
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Aug 18, 2020 01:23
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I kind of picture the eventual evolution being some kind of phased-array type solution, especially for anyone with hopes of making a true 'place anywhere on this mat' type thing. Otherwise, it's clever (or not clever) industrial design to help with alignment and then and only then does it "work". I have a TwelveSouth wireless charging stand which I use on my desk; before FaceID, I'd just leave it plugged into a dock sitting on its Lightning plug, and I could fingerprint unlock it and tap at stuff. Now, the angle is weird for FaceID so I have to lift up the phone — would put a ton more cycles on the Lightning connector. Good for all day / dock charging, less good if you need to charge in a hurry (which is what a 18W USB-C charger is for).
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Aug 18, 2020 02:12
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Well, it's not like very fast wireless charging doesn't exist (my phone is capable of 30w wireless charging.) There is a valid debate to be had on the wear and tear it places on the battery, though the stand that does that charging speed also has a fan in it that blows air at the back of the phone. It also detects you normal sleep cycle and trickle charges it over the night, only ramping up to bring it to 100% around the time you will pick it up off the charger.
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Aug 18, 2020 02:31
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With all that battery chat, I'm absolutely charged up to hear about what's happening at HotChips right now. https://www.anandtech.com/show/15984/hot-chips-2020-live-blog-next-gen-intel-xeon-ice-lakesp-930am-pt
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Aug 18, 2020 08:09
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what are we doing here intel https://twitter.com/VideoCardz/status/1295968461903081473
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Aug 19, 2020 12:40
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Well, Raja said it was all about the shroud, right? Those CPUs don't come with coolers, so they couldn't put a fancy shroud on the chip, so they did the next best thing and put it on the box. This will clearly lead to increased sales.
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Aug 19, 2020 14:11
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ngl I'd muster at least five seconds of novelty if they put an Avenger painting on the IHS
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Aug 19, 2020 14:17
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gradenko_2000 posted:ngl I'd muster at least five seconds of novelty if they put an Avenger painting on the IHS Marketing materials say "collect every one!", only Hawkeye is actually produced.
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Aug 19, 2020 20:28
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If it's anything like the sexy anime babes on GPU shrouds then it should be printed onto the LGA pads so it's upside-down after you install it.
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Aug 20, 2020 05:06
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Twerk from Home posted:Marketing materials say "collect every one!", only Hawkeye is actually produced. Oh man, Intel missed the boat to maximize the potential synergy of this marketing opportunity by a year. Imagine if you could get that Hawkeye shroud and exclusive access to Jeremy Renner's dad rock band music videos via his app!
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Aug 20, 2020 18:12
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Fabulousity posted:Oh man, Intel missed the boat to maximize the potential synergy of this marketing opportunity by a year. Imagine if you could get that Hawkeye shroud and exclusive access to Jeremy Renner's dad rock band music videos via his app! I miss the Jeremy Renner app. Man what a weird couple of days that was. I just love everything about that moment. The weirdo idiot old man arrogance that leads a middle aged character actor to make an app about himself. The lack of internet savvy over what would happen. The developer that was like “yeah we can make a Jeremy Renner app”. Those were salad days
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Aug 20, 2020 18:30
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it's Renner's world, we're just living in it
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Aug 20, 2020 19:49
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Ok Comboomer posted:I miss the Jeremy Renner app. Man what a weird couple of days that was. I just love everything about that moment. The weirdo idiot old man arrogance that leads a middle aged character actor to make an app about himself. The lack of internet savvy over what would happen. The developer that was like “yeah we can make a Jeremy Renner app”. Those were salad days His generic dad rock band also penned the ballad for the Jeep Compass marketing campaign in 2019 around the same time as his app. FCA felt the pairing was perfect but not for the reasons they thought: You could either go full Metallica and a Jeep Wrangler, or go full Coldplay and a Dodge Journey, or you could go Jeremy Renner and a Jeep Compass and be a watery mixing of both ends of the spectrum that isn't utilitarian or stylistic and is just the worst of all worlds tossed in a bucket to fill what marketing believed was a "hole" in the product line. I dunno if his plan was to make himself a "brand" or something but it's failure is really funny to look at. To keep things on topic, uh...hmm... So how about that Intel FX430 Triton chipset? EDO RAM? Yes please!
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Aug 21, 2020 00:05
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