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MichiganCubbie posted:Picard had so much promise. The Riker/Troi episode is great, and the Tal Shiar bodyguard/vineyard keepers are amazing characters. The Captain grew on me as well. The idea of rehabilitating Borg is a great idea, and they threw it all away by shooting them all. Picard would have been a good show if they'd just picked one of the ideas they had and stuck with it. None of the things they do individually are bad ideas. It's just that mixed together it's far too much and incoherent and it doesn't work. Also Picard repeatedly gets other people killed and doesn't care.
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Aug 20, 2020 20:37
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Alchenar posted:Also Picard repeatedly gets other people killed and doesn't care. I want to see a new edit of TNG that changes the show to match that characterization of Picard now
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Aug 20, 2020 21:41
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Tighclops posted:I want to see a new edit of TNG that changes the show to match that characterization of Picard now With all of the random plots they pulled out and then dropped I bet there's enough footage of Patrick Stewart to edit Picard into the movie Stay Tuned.
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Aug 20, 2020 21:53
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One little point: Lower Decks is 22-minute episodes. So I can slightly forgive the fact that character development seems to be a bit slow. I'm impressed they have time to do b-plots, even.
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Aug 20, 2020 21:55
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An old Armin Shimerman interview sums up, right at the end, why New Star Trek mostly sucks. https://www.player.one/are-ferengi-jewish-star-trek-deep-space-nine-cast-quark-armin-shimerman-118548 quote:At Star Trek: Mission New York, Armin Shimerman — Quark himself — addressed the question head-on. Asked by moderator Jordan Hoffman (of the official Star Trek Engage podcast) for the strangest readings or interpretations they’ve heard from fans, Shimerman revealed the universal prejudices that he sees as underlying how we view Ferengi. It's really that simple. And they don't get it. 
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Aug 20, 2020 22:38
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Animal-Mother posted:An old Armin Shimerman interview sums up, right at the end, why New Star Trek mostly sucks. Hope doesn’t get subscribers.
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Aug 20, 2020 23:01
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LDS 1x03 was... decent enough. It got some smiles out of me, so did its job. Faint praise, I know, but I still like it more than what I've seen of Discovery. Mariner's constant wilful insubordination kind of bugs me, though. I know it's a comedy, but why the gently caress would anyone senior let her leave the ship/her deck/the brig? "She's the captain's daughter" would work a lot better as a reason if the captain seemed even remotely to like her. As it is, she's basically an organic Bender who's somehow getting even more leeway for bad behaviour. (Well, apart from eventually getting dragged off to the brig for a trivial breach of regulations.)
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Aug 20, 2020 23:11
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I got a phaser Miles is still the Man Surprisingly the best episode so far. 
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Aug 21, 2020 04:49
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Miles O'Brian is the most important Starfleet character to exist and it's good to see that confirmed. Also, Commander Ransom is the best character in Lower Decks and possibly any Trek.
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Aug 21, 2020 05:07
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Mr.Unique-Name posted:Also, Commander Ransom is the best character in Lower Decks and possibly any Trek. "In thousands of simulations that has literally never happened before. Let’s try another one, on a ship with even MORE children!" And then he double-fist punches a giant to submission. He IS Starfleet, just as Riker was originally written to be the model Starfleet officer. Gotta say, I'm really enjoying the show more and more. Just enough heart and classic-TNG story trope BS to make it endearing.
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Aug 21, 2020 05:24
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MadJackal posted:Gotta say, I'm really enjoying the show more and more. Just enough heart and classic-TNG story trope BS to make it endearing. The show is fun and good if you go into it expecting a weird goofy commentary/deconstruction of Star Trek that is full of weird injokes. It's the worst poo poo ever if you started watching it expecting some deep sociological commentary like the earlier Trek series. I'm in the former camp.
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Aug 21, 2020 05:49
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As i said most of the complaints I've seen are people complaining this isn't Star Trek, defined by the Drumhead or In the Pale Moonlight. We've discussed that the Orville is like Star Trek but if the crew was slightly crummier than on the Enterprise, and that's Lower Decks. We literally are told "you are not as good as the Enterprise" in this episode. I liked how this episode did in a small way take on bosses who expect their staff to just go from one task to another without stopping, anyone who's worked retail knows this all too well. And something I think is a problem too much in post TNG series stuff is they seem to think the core of the show that people liked was Data and Picard, which honestly until I heard Nemesis mention this was a big part of it, never really thought of. Picard had the same relationship he had with Data and he had with Worf. Hell, probably more so, Picard overthrew a government to help Worf. I mean maybe they find that Picard and Data are the two most popular character so we need to make everything about them. Makes me think how X-men movies always end up focusing on Wolverine or Jean Grey. Properties that were defined by their ensembles rarely work when focus is placed on one or two characters at the expense of everyone else. That thing about Hope is a good point as well. Being better, striving to improve is one of the things that people love about Star Trek, that the future can be bright and worth fighting and working for. I think that is lost because a lot of TV creators came up in an era of nihilism and "everything's bullshit" so no one can be happy, everyone needs to has trauma and misery in their lives.
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Aug 21, 2020 08:31
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My rating of Episode 3 of Lower Decks (which is "how many times did I laugh harder than the title sequence") was a whopping 14. And 4 of those laughs were loud! Best episode yet and hopefully a trend for the rest of the season. Good poo poo!
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Aug 21, 2020 09:12
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I was fully expecting Commander Ransom to eat poo poo in the trial by combat.
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Aug 21, 2020 09:14
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Owlbear Camus posted:I was fully expecting Commander Ransom to eat poo poo in the trial by combat. I like that the Mary Sue outcomes of the Upper Decks is still canon. They can't lose.
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Aug 21, 2020 09:54
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Owlbear Camus posted:I was fully expecting Commander Ransom to eat poo poo in the trial by combat. I was too, but what they did works really well. Mariner tries her 'let me do what I do best' talk and Ransom points out that she's presented a false dichotomy and that he's perfectly capable of extreme violence to protect his crew. Mariner doesn't directly get her comeuppance but this episode points out strongly to the audience that she's telling herself that her rebelliousness serves some higher purpose, and that isn't actually true. Mariner is rebellious as a character flaw and it's important the show establishes this after two episodes of it being the solution to all problems.
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Aug 21, 2020 09:54
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It also reinforces the idea that the Federation as a whole isn't a bunch of fuckups, and that the bridge crew/higher-ranks actually deserve their positions.
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Aug 21, 2020 10:36
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tarlibone posted:Honestly, it looks like more than half of the people posting about this show are less interested in what's happening in the actual episodes, and more interested in figuring out the final verdict of the entire series before we're even to the fourth episode. To me, it seems like it's too early to do that. tarlibone posted:First seasons of pretty much any comedy show are rough, because the writers don't yet know what's going to work within the show's universe, they don't "know" the characters all that well, and they have limited to no audience feedback. Characters and tone will evolve, but it takes a little bit of time. Besides, it's not like Star Trek has a stellar trek record when it comes to first episodes and seasons. Snow Cone Capone posted:Lower Decks is 22-minute episodes. So I can slightly forgive the fact that character development seems to be a bit slow. I'm impressed they have time to do b-plots, even. Mr.Unique-Name posted:The show is fun and good if you go into it expecting a weird goofy commentary/deconstruction of Star Trek that is full of weird injokes. twistedmentat posted:As i said most of the complaints I've seen are people complaining this isn't Star Trek, defined by the Drumhead or In the Pale Moonlight. twistedmentat posted:We've discussed that the Orville is like Star Trek but if the crew was slightly crummier than on the Enterprise, and that's Lower Decks. twistedmentat posted:That thing about Hope is a good point as well. Being better, striving to improve is one of the things that people love about Star Trek, that the future can be bright and worth fighting and working for. I think that is lost because a lot of TV creators came up in an era of nihilism and "everything's bullshit" so no one can be happy, everyone needs to has trauma and misery in their lives.
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Aug 21, 2020 11:22
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I already like this show far more than The Orville, and that’s my hot take for the morning.
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Aug 21, 2020 13:08
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I really like the writing style of showing something but also simultaneously having to say it numerous times. HAHA Blast shield! HAHA Double fist punch! HAHA!!! This is some hack poo poo.
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Aug 21, 2020 13:30
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I didn't say they don't have time for b-plots, I said "I can forgive the fact that character development is slightly slower because the episodes are half the length of any other Trek series except TAS".
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Aug 21, 2020 13:32
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Also lol no Lower Decks does not wish it was The Orville they are 2 very different shows with very different conceits VVVVV if it isn't clear I am agreeing with you on this, not arguing against it Snow Cone Capone fucked around with this message at 13:48 on Aug 21, 2020 |
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Aug 21, 2020 13:37
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Lots of other animated shows manage a B plot, though? I don’t know what you’re all on about. I feel like people here are trying to shackle this 21 minute comedy animated show to the rules of 45-60 minute drama, and clearly that’s not going to fit at all.
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Aug 21, 2020 13:43
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Phylodox posted:I already like this show far more than The Orville, and that’s my hot take for the morning. Same.
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Aug 21, 2020 13:50
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Tiggum posted:I bet you're one of those "sure, season one sucks, but keep watching; it gets really good half way through season four" types. More like, keep watching, it gets better in the next season. But, phrasing it this way does actually make me smile, because it proves I was right, at least about you--you're clearly trying to deliver the final verdict for the show three episodes in, and you're justifying it by mocking the very notion that shows ever get better after weak first seasons. And that latter point is a little weird, seeing as how shows getting better after a bad start is such a common thing that the geniuses over at TV Tropes gave it a name. And, it's name is based on Star Trek: The Next Generation. Tiggum posted:These are some weak excuses. They're not "excuses" so much as they are "common, almost universally accepted observations about the development of TV shows that have been noted by viewers, critics, and even the writers and producers of those shows." I'm not saying that this show is definitely going to get better. I don't know for sure if it will. But, it's a pretty new take on the Star Trek universe, so I'm going to give it time to find its footing, because if I gave up on every show that had not-great first seasons, I'd have missed out on some good TV shows. And again, it's not like this is Allen Gregory. This one is actually making me laugh, and I'm enjoying it.
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Aug 21, 2020 13:56
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Okay, let's forget the horrible non-humor we're force fed from this show and look at the "Star Trek" moral resolutions. This latest episode one main character complains and rants against the authority she signed up to follow because her ego is horrible, and she only slightly turns away from her ego because she thinks a guy is attractive. Then at the end she dives right back into her ego. No improvement, no self reflection. The only character development she has is gaining lust. Our other main character is somehow competently incompetent who can't get his foot out of his mouth, and his resolution is to "relax" by convincing the captain that it's okay to be lazy sometimes. One of these plots is absolutely atrocious and the other would be okay if the rest of the show around it wasn't so terrible. The B plot here could have actually worked if the package it's in respected itself enough to not be so frenetic. We're shown characters who complain about being treated as incompetent but the show only gives us evidence to prove why Starfleet would treat them as such. They are incompetent. They're all morally disgusting, horribly motivated, egotistical maniacs. EDIT - I said B plot but then after posting I thought about it more, really that was the A plot but it was treated sort of as a B plot. This show is just bad. Super Deuce fucked around with this message at 14:04 on Aug 21, 2020 |
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Aug 21, 2020 13:57
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Super Deuce posted:They're all morally disgusting, horribly motivated, egotistical maniacs.  DPS main cast: * One reckless anti-authoritarian who wants to do good her way. Note that she is in fact quite good at this - delivering tools to the farmers, getting along with a Klingon ambassador, etc. Slowly learning that Starfleet isn't always the stuffy by-the-books place she's personally experienced it as. The second officer's actions in the gladitorial pit are an example she's forced to confront - turns out you CAN be a dashing space badass AND a high ranking officer. * One neurotic book-smart-experience-dumb who's adherence to the rules is holding him back. Wants to be a starship captain, not great at things outside rote learning and standardised tests but surprisingly competent within those limits. Is starting to learn that following all rules exactly to the letter does not always lead to the best results. His "lesson" to the captain is a sign of this, and an important lesson for himself as well. "My way is not always your way". DPS's main faults are that it's not as funny as it thinks it is, and that its characters are on the thin side. But since we're only on episode 3, I'm prepared to cut it some slack. Gravitas Shortfall fucked around with this message at 14:11 on Aug 21, 2020 |
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Aug 21, 2020 14:09
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Mariner is going to get little bits of comeuppance like her thing with Ransom, but she won’t ever get the kind that brings about self awareness to her personality flaws and her character won’t be toned down until the writers do it themselves organically. If at all. For it to happen in-plot would require this to be the kind of show it’s clearly not trying to be. It’s funny how I find things to complain about this show, but then when I pop it on I just have 22 minutes of fun with a grin on my face. I’d say hecc the haters, but then I’m worried about viewer numbers and ratings and cancellations  some kinda jackal fucked around with this message at 14:15 on Aug 21, 2020 |
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Aug 21, 2020 14:13
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If this show ever gets cancelled I seriously need it to end with a scene where fat Riker and old Troi turn off a padd which was playing the show as a nod to Enterprise.
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Aug 21, 2020 14:16
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Remember, in terms of equal screentime, we're about 3/4 of the way through Encounter at Farpoint at this point. I know that's comparing apples and oranges, but Lower Decks has been doing pretty well out of the gate, and the fact that we're arguing about whether it's good or not is a good sign, since we're not universally agreeing that it sucks like Picard.
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Aug 21, 2020 14:22
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Martytoof posted:If this show ever gets cancelled I seriously need it to end with a scene where fat Riker and old Troi turn off a padd which was playing the show as a nod to Enterprise. I wouldn't mind seeing this added to the end of every Trek series finale and movie. And we have the technology to do it. How about it, science? Why haven't we added scenes with Chief Petty Chef Riker, confidant extraordinaire, to more Trek episodes? Add it to Picard, too, but instead of it being the moral dilemma of the TNG episode about the cloaking device, it could be the one where they want to take Data apart so they can see how he works.
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Aug 21, 2020 15:00
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I am hoping they straight up begged De Lancie to voice Q for an LDS episode or two. I have to feel that would be right up his alley, given that he's too old to play an immortal being on film. I think he mentioned that he wasn't going to reprise Q in person in an interview somewhere recently, but this voice thing just seem like something that would be perfect for him, and the wacky tone of the show.
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Aug 21, 2020 15:10
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Get Corbin Bernsen instead. “Aw, we don’t even get the good Q!”
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Aug 21, 2020 15:36
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Phylodox posted:Get Corbin Bernsen instead. Only if Charlie Sheen or Tom Berenger shows up as another Q with him. Hell, throw Dennis Haysbert in as well, he does a lot of voicework.
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Aug 21, 2020 16:13
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I honestly don't understand the hate for this show. First, I think the joke of Broimler being extremely good with all the unreasonable demands on his time is both a great joke and a great way to look at the character. He did great with all the unreasonable demands of the crew time. I liked the whole back and forth between Mariner and Ransom about how they view the crew (even if Ransom is a bit of a hack). I smiled, it did its job.
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Aug 21, 2020 16:13
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MichiganCubbie posted:Only if Charlie Sheen or Tom Berenger shows up as another Q with him. Are you saying Q can't hit a curveball?
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Aug 21, 2020 16:13
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Mooseontheloose posted:Are you saying Q can't hit a curveball? This show is terrible, so I entirely disagree with your opinion on it, but I do want to point out that this is an example of a referential joke that this show is so far incapable of. Saying "Deanna Troi!" isn't a referential joke yet these terrible writers treat it as such.
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Aug 21, 2020 16:31
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tarlibone posted:I wouldn't mind seeing this added to the end of every Trek series finale and movie. And we have the technology to do it. I'm ready for the day where I can just download a program that can deepfake entire episodes for me. We'll be good as long as it doesn't make any Moriarties.
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Aug 21, 2020 16:39
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Super Deuce posted:This show is terrible, so I entirely disagree with your opinion on it, but I do want to point out that this is an example of a referential joke that this show is so far incapable of. Saying "Deanna Troi!" isn't a referential joke yet these terrible writers treat it as such. I agree that the writing on the "shout out something the audience knows" is lame, but I have hope, and it's still the best of the new shows at this point. And while I agree with you on that, the statue of Chief O'Brien is great and I will defend that til the end.
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Aug 21, 2020 16:41
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Super Deuce posted:This show is terrible, so I entirely disagree with your opinion on it, but I do want to point out that this is an example of a referential joke that this show is so far incapable of. Saying "Deanna Troi!" isn't a referential joke yet these terrible writers treat it as such. What do you mean by a "referential" joke, though? The show has a wacky sense of humour, but I don't think it's shown any meta- tendencies. Like, they're not referencing William Shatner or Patrick Stewart, they seem fairly committed to maintaining the universal integrity of the franchise, so referencing the fact that Corbin Bernsen was in a movie with Charlie Sheen seems out of character. If you just mean the show referencing things that have happened earlier in the continuity, they've done that. The opener with the despotic energy orb is referencing, like, probably four or five episodes.
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Aug 21, 2020 16:46
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