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aj styles second run was basically a belt pillow run
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Aug 21, 2020 13:46
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Price Check posted:I've been thinking about Kenny Omega's IWGP reign and the perception that many fans thought that it was disappointing/underwhelming (not saying all - if you loved it, that's great. But many didn't). And yet it started with one of the greatest matches of all time and ended with one of the greatest matches of all time. Diesel had a shock win over Backlund, did nothing for a year, then lost the belt to Bret in a tremendous match. In there, he had a handful of good matches (RR vs Bret, WM vs Shawn), but his entire year on top was mostly garbage.
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Aug 21, 2020 14:52
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Didn't help that Vince was fixated on having a babyface champ and turned Nash after the backline Backlund match with no rhyme or reason.
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Aug 21, 2020 15:42
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anakha posted:Didn't help that Vince was fixated on having a babyface champ and turned Nash after the backline Backlund match with no rhyme or reason. It's the standard Vince thing. Diesel was a heel, people loved him as a heel, doing heel things, so Vince thinks people will love him more if he's a face, doing face things.
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Aug 21, 2020 18:07
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What are some more "illegal" moves like the Shattered Dreams and Tarantula? Did either of those moves win in a no DQ or similar stipulation match? Tajiri really cranking back on it was the best.
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Aug 21, 2020 18:31
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Admiral Joeslop posted:What are some more "illegal" moves like the Shattered Dreams and Tarantula? Did either of those moves win in a no DQ or similar stipulation match? Lex Luger's running forearm was treated as illegal in WWF due to the metal in his arm.
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Aug 21, 2020 18:47
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Admiral Joeslop posted:What are some more "illegal" moves like the Shattered Dreams and Tarantula? Did either of those moves win in a no DQ or similar stipulation match? Tully and Arn in the WWF using the Spike Piledriver (at least at first). Watch their earlier matches and Tully would always provoke an opponent's partner into getting in the ring to distract the ref so he and Arn could hit the "illegal" Spike Piledriver. But after a while, the WWF dropped that angle. The Piledriver in Memphis is another one.
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Aug 21, 2020 18:47
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Admiral Joeslop posted:What are some more "illegal" moves like the Shattered Dreams and Tarantula? Did either of those moves win in a no DQ or similar stipulation match? Is Orton's punt technically illegal?
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Aug 21, 2020 20:23
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Admiral Joeslop posted:What are some more "illegal" moves like the Shattered Dreams and Tarantula? Did either of those moves win in a no DQ or similar stipulation match? Tombstone Piledriver is illegal in Mexico and gets you DQ'ed (and is a great way to end a second fall to get some heat for the third)
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Aug 21, 2020 20:25
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Red posted:Is Orton's punt technically illegal? it's only a kick so I don't see why it would be WWE used to "ban" punches/closed fist strikes for a period but I don't think they've ever banned kicks
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Aug 21, 2020 20:38
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SatoshiMiwa posted:Tombstone Piledriver is illegal in Mexico and gets you DQ'ed (and is a great way to end a second fall to get some heat for the third) It often results in a stretcher job too so winning a big match with it is guaranteed serious heat for a Rudo.
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Aug 21, 2020 20:56
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On a vaguely similar note, why are chokes illegal but not sleepers or the Tazzmission or whatever? What are the differences between legal holds that KO you and illegal holds like a choke? It's something about not attacking the throat but then how are you supposed to knock somebody out?
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Aug 21, 2020 22:00
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NikkolasKing posted:On a vaguely similar note, why are chokes illegal but not sleepers or the Tazzmission or whatever? What are the differences between legal holds that KO you and illegal holds like a choke? It's something about not attacking the throat but then how are you supposed to knock somebody out? the Tazmission was illegal in WWF
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Aug 21, 2020 22:03
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Yeah, Chokes are 100% illegal as they attack the throat whereas in Kayfabe stuff like Sleepers/Cobra Clutches/Tazzmission doesn't
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Aug 21, 2020 22:04
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NikkolasKing posted:On a vaguely similar note, why are chokes illegal but not sleepers or the Tazzmission or whatever? What are the differences between legal holds that KO you and illegal holds like a choke? It's something about not attacking the throat but then how are you supposed to knock somebody out? Sleepers and the such are cutting off the blood supply, not the air supply.
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Aug 21, 2020 22:05
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Yeah, I think it's kind of the difference between squeezing the neck and squeezing the throat. They're always talking about checking to make sure the arm isn't under the chin on rear naked chokes and stuff, so I guess as long as the arm isn't on the throat but just squeezing the neck it's okay.
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Aug 21, 2020 22:10
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The Tazmission was a choke (grand theft oxygen! Stealing his air!), The Tazzmission was not.
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Aug 21, 2020 22:14
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Blood chokes are ok, strangles are not. Basically you just can't grab the windpipe
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Aug 21, 2020 22:17
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Orange Cassidy has been wrestling since 2004, right? What's his bump card look like? I know he has his current gimmick that's probably pretty good for minimizing your bumps, but I'm wondering what his overall career looks like, from anybody who's been following him since, like, the Chikara days. Basically I'm wondering how long he'll be able to go as a high-card guy, possibly top guy in AEW, since he's already 36.
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Aug 22, 2020 00:25
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anakha posted:Didn't help that Vince was fixated on having a babyface champ and turned Nash after the backline Backlund match with no rhyme or reason. Actually they sorta turn him at the Survivor Series PPV shortly before (all this happened in the space of a week), he just abruptly falls out with Shawn Michaels and I guess he's a hero now and he wins the belt and on the next RAW people are holding up "WWF Champion Diesel" signs though they would have no way of knowing about this unless they were following, like, Usenet
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Aug 22, 2020 00:49
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Maxwell Lord posted:Actually they sorta turn him at the Survivor Series PPV shortly before (all this happened in the space of a week), he just abruptly falls out with Shawn Michaels and I guess he's a hero now and he wins the belt and on the next RAW people are holding up "WWF Champion Diesel" signs though they would have no way of knowing about this unless they were following, like, Usenet Weren’t the weekend syndicated shows still enough of a thing at this point that most people would’ve found out there?
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Aug 22, 2020 01:02
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Diabolik900 posted:Weren’t the weekend syndicated shows still enough of a thing at this point that most people would’ve found out there? That's how I found out about it.
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Aug 22, 2020 01:04
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Yeah. The timeline went like this: - Survivor Series is Wednesday. Diesel turns face and Bob Backlund wins the title of Bret. - WWF Superstars is Saturday. Jack Tunney mentions that due to being so beat up, Bret is in no condition for a return match just yet and the planned Backlund title defense at an MSG house show will instead go to Diesel. - That night, Diesel wins the title in mere seconds at the house show. - WWF Wrestling Challenge is Sunday. In a very rare moment of something major happening in-between syndicated shows, Diesel's title win is the big news.
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Aug 22, 2020 03:13
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MJeff posted:Orange Cassidy has been wrestling since 2004, right? What's his bump card look like? I know he has his current gimmick that's probably pretty good for minimizing your bumps, but I'm wondering what his overall career looks like, from anybody who's been following him since, like, the Chikara days. He doesn't have many injuries and his gimmick requires him doing as little as possible, so I'd say he's got more time left than your average 36-year-old wrestler. He started doing the lazy stuff around 2010-2011, so that's a good chunk of time.
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Aug 22, 2020 03:26
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Two NJPW related questions. 1 - What does the "dojo" system entail? 2 - What does it mean if a wrestler is referred to as a Young Lion?
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Aug 22, 2020 03:48
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CobiWann posted:Two NJPW related questions. the dojo is the training school of njpw, a common system found with most larger wrestling companies in the country. if you are a student at the dojo, you live there and you are 100% focused on your training and the company. you don't join any sports clubs, you don't go out to have fun, you don't date anyone. the dojo is your life when you are just starting out. you practice fundamentals over and over again, this practice is to weed out those that aren't atheltically abled or disciplined. you don't learn any moves right away but rather a focus on conditioning and bumping correctly. the first year you're basically learning and practicing the bare basics and thats it. when you're not training you're doing fleet crew duties, setting up/taking down the ring, chairs etc from shows, you're to drive and help transport veteran wrestlers and listen to them, anything a veteran wrestler asks you to do, you do. after about a year or more of this when you're ready you are promoted to Young Lion. you still have all the previous responsibilities, but now will get to wrestle very short, very basic matches. you are only allowed a VERY limited moveset, very basic strikes and holds, your "finisher" is always a boston crab or a pinning combination. you have short natural colored hair and wear basic black trunks and boots. you are not there to stand out, you're there to learn. you never win any matches unless its exclusively against another young lion, and almost always the more senior lion goes over. after a couple of years of this, if you're deemed good enough and ready, you're sent off on excursion to another country or company to learn with them so you can develop your own style or character. By this point, they almost always have a good idea of how they're going to use you when you return and where they send you is usually based on where they think you need improving. typically wrestlers that have had trouble finding a character or personality find themselves sent to CMLL in mexico, like Hiromu or SHO and YOH. wrestlers that need more in-ring refining or just crisping up find themselves shipped off to the UK or USA which is what happened to Jay White. your excursion lasts until they're ready to bring you back under a new gimmick where you'll get a push. Wrestlers that don't go on excursion will usually receive their new gimmick right away, and usually these wrestlers are ones the company figures don't really have top guy potential and they stay lower on the card upon graduation. Master Wato, Toa Henare, and David Finlay (who granted, has in fact started to improve his position and push after graduation so its not a glass ceiling) are examples of guys who graduate the system and don't have to do an excursion.
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Aug 22, 2020 04:23
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I thought Master Wato was in CMLL?
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Aug 22, 2020 04:25
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He was, for two and a half years
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Aug 22, 2020 04:26
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i dont know why i thought he never went on excursion i think it might be some weird mental bias against the grand master he just has a very yoshi hashi energy to me so i figured oh he just got to graduate
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Aug 22, 2020 04:28
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Maybe you meant Juice Robinson (checking his wikipedia page, he seemed to have graduated without doing an excursion) Also lmao at him being the first American to win the IWGP US Heavyweight Championship
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Aug 22, 2020 04:32
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Price Check posted:I've been thinking about Kenny Omega's IWGP reign and the perception that many fans thought that it was disappointing/underwhelming (not saying all - if you loved it, that's great. But many didn't). And yet it started with one of the greatest matches of all time and ended with one of the greatest matches of all time. I liked it a lot, but YAMATO's last Dream Gate run in Dragon Gate was like that for a lot of people. Went on too long, people were generally more into his opponents winning, and for a lot of western fans, YAMATO's "Main Event Singles Match" has a lot of long drawn out stuff they don't like. But the match where he beat Shingo for the title was perfect, and his match where he dropped it to Masaaki Mochizuki was amazing.
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Aug 22, 2020 04:34
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juice went on excursion to nxt
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Aug 22, 2020 04:35
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MJeff posted:Orange Cassidy has been wrestling since 2004, right? What's his bump card look like? I know he has his current gimmick that's probably pretty good for minimizing your bumps, but I'm wondering what his overall career looks like, from anybody who's been following him since, like, the Chikara days. As Fire Ant, he never seemed to get sidelined with any major injuries or anything that I can recall.
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Aug 22, 2020 04:35
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There was a VERY brief period where, playing off the real life ban in WWE (for everyone but Taker and Kane), piledrivers were storyline illegal on SmackDown. But I think it was only mentioned once, by Cole during one of the Benoit-Orton matches where Orton subbed for Booker T in their best of 7 series for the U.S. title.Ganso Bomb posted:I always wondered if refs were miked. I know they have the earpiece but wasn't solid on them having a mic. As for the X: When it started to be used in storylines, they made the call that there would be a shoot X and a work X. I forget which is which, but one is overhead and one is closer to chest height.
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Aug 22, 2020 21:54
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i would guess that the overhead one is for worked injury things, "playing to the cheap seats" and all. i was pretty interested and shocked to hear about how scripted and micromanaged wwe matches were from moxley's first big interview post-wwe. i mean i knew they were more controlled than most but i always figured the wrestlers still called most of it, just because who would bother to script it down to the detail like that? anyway, anyone have any idea when that might have started to become a thing in wwe? are there other shoot interviews from ex-wwe talent who talked about it, like, 10 years ago? im curious to see how recent the extreme scripting and such started.
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Aug 22, 2020 21:59
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It's also an interesting paradox because the agents seem to scoff at these youngsters not wanting to listen and to call their matches themselves, when back in the day, Randy Savage, Raven and DDP got tons of poo poo for laying out their matches in full ahead of time and not calling it on the fly.
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Aug 22, 2020 22:14
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I think laying out a match ahead of time can be cool and good, but I think they should trust the talent themselves to do the laying out. I dunno, WWE just feels so lifeless and I wouldn't be shocked if that was part of it (along with scripted promos). I never felt like any of Macho, Raven, or DDP were lifeless even if they preplanned stuff.
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Aug 22, 2020 22:25
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yea i mean if thats someones prerogative thats one thing, im not dumping on ddp or raven or anything. just when it became like, company mandate in wwe.
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Aug 22, 2020 22:30
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Agents would go over the finish and any storyline elements that were required, otherwise they would work with the wrestlers to put together a rough outline of a match or just let the veterans do it themselves. It all ties together with WWE making everyone recite a script. It's almost like a dying ability, withering away within the industry if you make it to the "top."
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Aug 23, 2020 00:27
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Undertaker is often said to be the best/most successful gimmick ever in wrestling history. Who is second place and third place and so-on?
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Aug 23, 2020 05:49
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