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Who will you vote for in 2020? This poll is closed. |
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|---|---|---|---|
| Biden |
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425 | 18.06% |
| Trump |
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105 | 4.46% |
| whoever the Green Party runs |
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307 | 13.05% |
| GOOGLE RON PAUL |
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151 | 6.42% |
| Bernie Sanders |
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346 | 14.70% |
| Stalin |
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246 | 10.45% |
| Satan |
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300 | 12.75% |
| Nobody |
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202 | 8.58% |
| Jess Scarane |
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110 | 4.67% |
| mystery man Brian Carroll of the American Solidarity Party |
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61 | 2.59% |
| Dick Nixon |
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100 | 4.25% |
| Total: | 2089 votes | ||
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joepinetree posted:Had Biden received the support of David Duke, it would have been a bridge too far for even liberals, who would have demanded that he denounce that support. No they would not, and they would tell everyone who would that they're being divisive.
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Aug 21, 2020 20:30
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What confuses me about the insane defensiveness of Biden supporters is that so far Biden's clearly winning? Trump won by a very slim margin even in 2016, when he wasn't yet a hated incumbent and when his opponent was the worst, dumbest pile of vain human garbage that the democrats could possibly find. It's extremely unlikely that he can win again, so why do dems freak out so much just because some leftists know that Joe Biden is a lying, right wing rapist. We're not going to influence the result one way or the other lol.
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Aug 21, 2020 20:39
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RottenK posted:What confuses me about the insane defensiveness of Biden supporters is that so far Biden's clearly winning? Trump won by a very slim margin even in 2016, when he wasn't yet a hated incumbent and when his opponent was the worst, dumbest pile of vain human garbage that the democrats could possibly find. Well, think of it this way: Back in 2016, it was common knowledge that Trump had a 0% chance to win. He had absolutely no chance in any reality of winning, Hillary was going to dunk on him like the hoop was one of those 2' tall PlaySkool models. And then he won. Despite Very Smart People assuring us that she had a 99% chance of winning with a 1% margin of error, she managed to lose. So now even the most aggressive BidenStan, at least on a subconscious level, is a little apprehensive despite polls from the same Very Smart People assuring everyone that Trump is absolutely going to lose for real this time. They desperately want to believe that he's going to fold like a house of cards and that quiet and peaceful brunches are right around the corner, but they just can't get rid of that tiny little bit of doubt in the back of their minds, and it makes them lash out and get angry.
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Aug 21, 2020 20:53
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rko posted:You realize it doesn’t have to be a crime for people to find it to be a pretty blatant sign of corruption, right? Like I shouldn’t have to cite federal law to say that. My point isn’t that it wasn’t illegal. My point is that there’s no evidence that Joe Biden took any action to get him on the board, and no evidence that Joe Biden took any action because his son was on the board. The unethical behavior here is on the part of Burisma for hiring an unqualified person in an attempt to curry favor and (arguably) Hunter Biden for taking a million dollars a year for a fake job. Of course it’s sleazy but Joe Biden didn’t invent nepotism, nor did he appear to have gained anything from it, in this case. Hunter Biden isn’t running for anything and I don’t give two shits about Burisma, a corrupt company in a country where corruption was/is endemic.
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Aug 21, 2020 20:55
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RottenK posted:What confuses me about the insane defensiveness of Biden supporters is that so far Biden's clearly winning? Trump won by a very slim margin even in 2016, when he wasn't yet a hated incumbent and when his opponent was the worst, dumbest pile of vain human garbage that the democrats could possibly find. They're trying to recapture how they felt voting for Obama in 2008 but that's a lot harder to do with ol' Grabby Joe, and reminding them that he's going to slash and burn the social safety net at the first opportunity makes it even harder. They're building a narrative where they're brave heroes saving the republic from a once in a lifetime threat, and here comes the left, trying to make them feel bad because Joe just decided that he doesn't want to end fossil fuel subsidies.
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Aug 21, 2020 20:56
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RottenK posted:What confuses me about the insane defensiveness of Biden supporters is that so far Biden's clearly winning? Trump won by a very slim margin even in 2016, when he wasn't yet a hated incumbent and when his opponent was the worst, dumbest pile of vain human garbage that the democrats could possibly find. Some posters have expressed a clear preference for Donald Trump to win re-election. (Yes, I know that the anti-Biden posters who haven’t done that are somehow incapable of seeing it.) That’s offensive to a lot of people for reasons I think should be pretty obvious.
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Aug 21, 2020 20:58
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Mellow Seas posted:Some posters have expressed a clear preference for Donald Trump to win re-election. (Yes, I know that the anti-Biden posters who haven’t done that are somehow incapable of seeing it.) That’s offensive to a lot of people for reasons I think should be pretty obvious. I don't think many people want Trump to win, at best they just assume Biden will fail as President. For me, the biggest problem with Rotten's post is that there aren't very many foam at the mouth Biden supporters here, if any really. A lot of people just get annoyed when someone says "strategy X" or "occurrence Y" helps Trump get elected when it clearly helps Biden or when people suggest that some data exposes a vulnerability of Biden's electoral chances when it doesn't. Usually it's "I don't like that he appeals to moderates in this way, so that means he will lose" but unfortunately the data doesn't bear that out.
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Aug 21, 2020 21:01
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Mellow Seas posted:Some posters have expressed a clear preference for Donald Trump to win re-election. (Yes, I know that the anti-Biden posters who haven’t done that are somehow incapable of seeing it.) That’s offensive to a lot of people for reasons I think should be pretty obvious. I've seen maybe three people here actually say "I want Trump to win" and of those I'm pretty sure one or two were trolling. What I've definitely seen a lot of is us discussing what the material differences between a Trump and Biden presidency might be, and whenever someone postulates that Biden might actually be worse on something a lib Kramers on in to go "you want TRUMP TO WIN??? WHAT THE FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCK?????" and have a mini-meltdown about how all of us NoJoes must really hate minorities.
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Aug 21, 2020 21:03
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Shammypants posted:For me, the biggest problem with Rotten's post is that there aren't very many foam at the mouth Biden supporters here, if any really.
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Aug 21, 2020 21:03
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Shammypants posted:I don't think many people want Trump to win, at best they just assume Biden will fail as President. For me, the biggest problem with Rotten's post is that there aren't very many foam at the mouth Biden supporters here, if any really. A lot of people just get annoyed when someone says "strategy X" or "occurrence Y" helps Trump get elected when it clearly helps Biden or when people suggest that some data exposes a vulnerability of Biden's electoral chances when it doesn't. Usually it's "I don't like that he appeals to moderates in this way, so that means he will lose" but unfortunately the data doesn't bear that out. I will likely vote for Hawkins (although I don't live in a swing state, so thats not a "brave" choice), but I also have internalized that I don't want Trump to be president anymore, and that likely means that Biden will be president if I get my wish. I'm not thrilled at the prospect of a Biden presidency, but I still would prefer that outcome to Trump being president. I don't think the country-- or many people-- can take the strain of a dangerous-idiotic, malignant narcissist being the President for another 4 years. Its even psychologically draining-- before we get to all of the dangerous and corrupt poo poo Trump has done and will continue to do. The way some here either take active glee in the prospect of Biden losing, or react with foaming-at-the-mouth outrage that you even attempt to tacitly "support" Biden by being against Trump, is really off-putting to me. Which is ironic, because its really the inverse of "you support Trump if you don't support Biden." Grayly Squirrel fucked around with this message at 21:15 on Aug 21, 2020 |
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Aug 21, 2020 21:11
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We're a small corner of the internet, it's a lot easier to conquer it by shaming and attacking people into not even wanting to talk to you anymore than impacting the actual electoral map.
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Aug 21, 2020 21:13
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Shammypants posted:We're a small corner of the internet, it's a lot easier to conquer it by shaming and attacking people into not even wanting to talk to you anymore than impacting the actual electoral map. We used to do that here before it was a small fossilized corner of the internet occupied by a handful of burned-out millennials in their 30s and 40s. Plenty of the conversation in this thread is almost verbatim the 2012 General Election thread. More people got banned then, though, because there were still new posters to replace them. Its also a lot easier to defend Obama in your early 20s vs. Biden in your 30s or 40s.
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Aug 21, 2020 21:18
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Grayly Squirrel posted:The way some here either take active glee in the prospect of Biden losing, or react with foaming-at-the-mouth outrage that you even attempt to tacitly "support" Biden by being against Trump, is really off-putting to me. Where has this happened? As far as I remember nobody's reacted with foaming-at-the-mouth outrage at anyone saying they oppose Trump, considering everyone in this thread opposes Trump. I'm pretty sure anyway! Trump supporters are welcome to come out and play if they want but I haven't seen them in any of these threads yet.
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Aug 21, 2020 21:19
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Mellow Seas posted:My point isn’t that it wasn’t illegal. My point is that there’s no evidence that Joe Biden took any action to get him on the board, and no evidence that Joe Biden took any action because his son was on the board. The unethical behavior here is on the part of Burisma for hiring an unqualified person in an attempt to curry favor and (arguably) Hunter Biden for taking a million dollars a year for a fake job. This is an absolutely ridiculous standard to defend. Essentially now we have to apply the McDonnell standard to have discussions on the internet. You don't care about it at least go with that, instead of this insane "well, you need to have an actual piece of tangible evidence to suggest that there is anything untoward when Biden's sons keep making millions by getting jobs their father is directly involved in regulating." Shammypants posted:We're a small corner of the internet, it's a lot easier to conquer it by shaming and attacking people into not even wanting to talk to you anymore than impacting the actual electoral map. What the hell is this supposed to mean?
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Aug 21, 2020 21:20
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joepinetree posted:
That does sound like the practical consequence of voter-shaming rhetoric and why people just bitch at you guys rather than phone-banking for biden.
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Aug 21, 2020 21:23
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Son of Thunderbeast posted:Where has this happened? As far as I remember nobody's reacted with foaming-at-the-mouth outrage at anyone saying they oppose Trump, considering everyone in this thread opposes Trump. I'm pretty sure anyway! Trump supporters are welcome to come out and play if they want but I haven't seen them in any of these threads yet. I went back to pick a few quotes out, and realized I probably shouldn't. Nothing good can come of specifically quoting anyone. I don't think there are any Trump supporters, per se. But there are absolutely accelerationists in this thread who sincerely believe Trump getting re-elected would be a better outcome for the Leftist cause, and therefore support that outcome.
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Aug 21, 2020 21:27
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The battle's already lost, though. We're brutally hosed no matter who wins. Maybe Joe is better in the short term, but maybe he's worse in the long term. Maybe Trump's actually worse in the long term. Are either of them meaningfully different in either term to substantially matter? Who knows? Certainly nobody posting here. You have to admit, though, that despite everything one of the very, very few -- maybe the only -- upsides to Trump winning would be the Democratic establishment just absolutely eating poo poo AGAIN and losing to the World's Dumbest Man AGAIN and it would be one of the funniest things to happen in the history of this country. I'm not saying it would be good, but it would be hilarious.
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Aug 21, 2020 21:27
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Pentecoastal Elites posted:The battle's already lost, though. We're brutally hosed no matter who wins. Maybe Joe is better in the short term, but maybe he's worse in the long term. Maybe Trump's actually worse in the long term. Are either of them meaningfully different in either term to substantially matter? Who knows? Certainly nobody posting here. I would enjoy having another four years to tell people that Bernie would have won. I mean it would probably be the only enjoyable thing about it, but I take what I can get.
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Aug 21, 2020 21:29
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Grayly Squirrel posted:I don't think there are any Trump supporters, per se. But there are absolutely accelerationists in this thread who sincerely believe Trump getting re-elected would be a better outcome for the Leftist cause, and therefore support that outcome. I've asked this before, but please explain to me, a big moron, how electing the guy whose entire political career is dragging his party as far to the right as possible to the point where there's essentially no difference between "Democrat" and "Republican but doesn't say the racist stuff out loud usually", just absolutely paving the way for the GOP to go full-on white nationalist somehow isn't the accelerationist position?
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Aug 21, 2020 21:29
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Grayly Squirrel posted:I went back to pick a few quotes out, and realized I probably shouldn't. Nothing good can come of specifically quoting anyone. Grayly Squirrel posted:react with foaming-at-the-mouth outrage that you even attempt to tacitly "support" Biden by being against Trump
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Aug 21, 2020 21:30
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Pentecoastal Elites posted:I've asked this before, but please explain to me, a big moron, how electing the guy whose entire political career is dragging his party as far to the right as possible to the point where there's essentially no difference between "Democrat" and "Republican but doesn't say the racist stuff out loud usually", just absolutely paving the way for the GOP to go full-on white nationalist somehow isn't the accelerationist position? It's because the less racist and right wing person would be president, OP You absolutely understand this, please don't act like it's a mystery
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Aug 21, 2020 21:32
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Pentecoastal Elites posted:The battle's already lost, though. We're brutally hosed no matter who wins. Maybe Joe is better in the short term, but maybe he's worse in the long term. Maybe Trump's actually worse in the long term. Are either of them meaningfully different in either term to substantially matter? Who knows? Certainly nobody posting here. I think Trump winning again would be good if leftists like Bernie worked heroically to take control over the party because they could run with the very real narrative that centrists aren't closing the deal. And there is no way things don't just get worse under Trump leading to a complete democratic takeover. But that means 4 more years of Trump. And I don't know if left or right can survive another 4 years. Being out of power is not the best place for any kind of leftism. One of my frustrations is the DNC holds us hostage with their mealy mouthed agendas by basically holding a gun to our head and saying go ahead let Trump win if you don't vote for Joe. I begrudgingly voted for Hillary and I'll begrudgingly vote for Joe.
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Aug 21, 2020 21:32
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Pentecoastal Elites posted:The battle's already lost, though. We're brutally hosed no matter who wins. Maybe Joe is better in the short term, but maybe he's worse in the long term. Maybe Trump's actually worse in the long term. Are either of them meaningfully different in either term to substantially matter? Who knows? Certainly nobody posting here. It would be funny in isolation, which is the most charitable thing I can say. To me, the best path is one where you control your own destiny. A plan requires operational steps that we can achieve. Biden being president still leaves a path open to the "party-within-a-party" approach. We can debate the merits and efficacy of that approach, but its one where the onus is on us to do something. Get leftists elected at the state and local level, and shift our focus to the 2022 midterms. The accelerationist path relies on 1) Trump winning, and 2) other people taking the "right" lesson from that occurrence, so that they 3) come crawling back to us. Not only is it passive, it sounds-- to me-- like the thought process of a still grieving vengeful ex. Thats not a plan, its revenge-porn wishful thinking. EDIT Son of Thunderbeast posted:I'm not asking about anything in that second paragraph. You said some folks are outraged at the idea of someone opposing Trump: Fair. You're right, I shouldn't have said that if I wasn't prepared to back it up. I have some particular incidents in mind, but its not worth it. I was wrong to put it that way. Grayly Squirrel fucked around with this message at 21:37 on Aug 21, 2020 |
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Aug 21, 2020 21:33
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Grayly Squirrel posted:I went back to pick a few quotes out, and realized I probably shouldn't. Nothing good can come of specifically quoting anyone. I worry that if Biden wins, liberals will go "Problems solved! Back to brunch!" and a lot of the outrage about the injustices in the United States will fade. Look at what happened to #MeToo when it was revealed Biden is a rapist. Trump is obvious about what's hosed up with the United States, you can't ignore it even if you would prefer to. But Biden will do a better job of not saying the quiet part out loud and letting people tune it out. I don't support the outcome of Trump winning, it's just that Biden doesn't plan on doing anything to address someone like Trump becoming President in the first place and is going to try to stomp out any leftist progress. Heliotrope fucked around with this message at 21:44 on Aug 21, 2020 |
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Aug 21, 2020 21:37
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Pentecoastal Elites posted:The battle's already lost, though. We're brutally hosed no matter who wins. Maybe Joe is better in the short term, but maybe he's worse in the long term. Maybe Trump's actually worse in the long term. Are either of them meaningfully different in either term to substantially matter? Who knows? Certainly nobody posting here. Will it be funny to those migrant kids separated from their parents currently in cages and hotels? Will it be funny to the families trying to unite in America but can’t because Trump and Miller have hosed up the USCIS? Please enlighten me who will be laughing at this and will find it funny.
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Aug 21, 2020 21:38
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I don't think Biden is worse than Trump. But I do think that it is a lot closer than people like to admit (just read a little bit about John Negroponte and wonder why he would be on Biden's side). I also think that Biden has the potential to be worse than Trump. Not in the "a worse person will win in 2024" but by itself. Every liberal celebrating Democrats as the real party of fiscal responsibility is just bragging about their role in the conservative starve the beast strategy.
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Aug 21, 2020 21:38
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Conveniently, I can respond to both of you with the same post: Joe Biden is 100% head-to-toe about dragging the Democrats to the right. That's all he's ever been, that's all he's ever done, for his whole career. Maybe if you go back and look at the tape and go frame-by-frame he was marginally better than some of his colleagues on this or that social issue (gay marriage, say), but that's not the man's life's work. That's not what he has been doing, that's not what he's doing now, and that's not what he and his people are telling you, directly, that he's going to do in office. Trump and the GOP do not face an existential threat from leftists. Maybe (God willing) they do in the long run, but they absolutely do not for this election and the foreseeable future. If anything, having open socialists out and about helps them rile up their base. Biden and the Democrats, on the other hand, absolutely do face an existential threat from leftists. Maybe not as an organization, per say, but the people that make up the establishment and their peers and extended families and PMC/Nonprofit networks would absolutely face a direct challenge to their positions and their standard of living if they let a Bernie Sanders slip past and get any real power. Joe Biden, if elected, will work to dismantle left power in America. I'll toxx on that. Maybe he won't be that effective, but it's absolutely something he and his administration will do, overtly or covertly. Trump continues to give us all the bad poo poo that Trump gives us anyway. If he becomes president we're all totally hosed. Biden gives us most of the bad poo poo that Trump gives us, but also knows who his real enemies are (not the GOP). If he becomes president we're all totally hosed. We're all totally hosed! Hard to say who is better, and, IMO, impossible to claim that one path is "accelerationist" without watering down the meaning of accelerationism into meaninglessness
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Aug 21, 2020 21:41
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Glumwheels posted:Will it be funny to those migrant kids separated from their parents currently in cages and hotels? Will it be funny to the families trying to unite in America but can’t because Trump and Miller have hosed up the USCIS? Buddy, I got real bad news for you about who started that whole kids in cages mess
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Aug 21, 2020 21:42
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Pentecoastal Elites posted:Buddy, I got real bad news for you about who started that whole kids in cages mess You still didn’t answer my question and yes I’m aware of what Obama did but he wasn’t responsible for separating kids and ensuring they’d never see their families again. It was Miller and a Trump who started that poo poo. Obama didn’t have Miller’s zero tolerance policy.
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Aug 21, 2020 21:45
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Glumwheels posted:Will it be funny to those migrant kids separated from their parents currently in cages and hotels? Will it be funny to the families trying to unite in America but can’t because Trump and Miller have hosed up the USCIS? All the people whos family and loved ones died in Iraq? They might find it funny that one of the architects of their misery lost.
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Aug 21, 2020 21:47
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Grayly Squirrel posted:It would be funny in isolation, which is the most charitable thing I can say. Even if Biden wins - and I've said this before - I worry the lesson learned from the smug lanyard types will be that the left is "irrelevant" and "unneeded". They will utterly fail to understand the NoJoe position and its nuances, and will take as the lesson that Biden's campaigning to temporarily embarrassed suburban Panera moms is more successful than "catering" to "whiny" leftists who actually expect things to be done. I don't want to be this cynical about politics. It'd be lovely to believe that voting for Biden is the best step forward and that all our concerns will be assuaged. I certainly hope that Biden will be better than the evidence is currently pointing, but the DNC establishment just doesn't get it. Whether they win or lose in November, I have serious doubts they'll ever get it; partly because they're fossils, and partly because they're completely out of touch with the realities that most Americans face.
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Aug 21, 2020 21:48
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Nelson Mandingo posted:I think Trump winning again would be good if leftists like Bernie worked heroically to take control over the party because they could run with the very real narrative that centrists aren't closing the deal. And there is no way things don't just get worse under Trump leading to a complete democratic takeover. Bernie can’t even bother bucking the party’s authority over his colleague and ally Ed Markey, and it’s very plain that he’s zero percent interested in taking over control given that he accepts all of the poo poo slung at him while acting like he’s won some impressive moral victory by staying on the high road.
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Aug 21, 2020 21:48
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e: phone doublepost
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Aug 21, 2020 21:48
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Glumwheels posted:You still didn’t answer my question and yes I’m aware of what Obama did but he wasn’t responsible for separating kids and ensuring they’d never see their families again. It was Miller and a Trump who started that poo poo. Obama didn’t have Miller’s zero tolerance policy. Ah so, vote Joe: there's a chance that he'll make the concentration camps his boss instituted slightly less cruel. Anyway as to your question: I would find it funny, as I said in my previous post, where I stated it would be funny. Things can be bad and funny. Funny things are sometimes not good at all.
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Aug 21, 2020 21:49
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Glumwheels posted:You still didn’t answer my question and yes I’m aware of what Obama did but he wasn’t responsible for separating kids and ensuring they’d never see their families again. It was Miller and a Trump who started that poo poo. Obama didn’t have Miller’s zero tolerance policy. Once again: The difference in terms of kid separation is not as clear cut as this. The Flores settlement made it so that children could not be held indefinitely. IIRIRA made it so that adults can. Obama's solution to this was to expedite deportations, including making 3 year olds represent themselves in immigration court. Trump's has been to separate them. It is not at all a certainty that expedited deportations is the more humane alternative here. joepinetree fucked around with this message at 22:11 on Aug 21, 2020 |
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Aug 21, 2020 21:49
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Glumwheels posted:You still didn’t answer my question and yes I’m aware of what Obama did but he wasn’t responsible for separating kids and ensuring they’d never see their families again. It was Miller and a Trump who started that poo poo. Obama didn’t have Miller’s zero tolerance policy. yeah building and normalizing the infrastructure that allowed his successor to easily do this poo poo is hosed up to begin with. do you not remember the mass protests against obamas immigration policy at the time? weirdly Obama decided that appeasing white supremacists was more important than protecting minorities. do you see a pattern emerging here?
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Aug 21, 2020 21:50
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Why can’t either of you answer the question? Why just deflect and go bbbut Obama and Iraq! We’re talking about here and now and the people suffering today who will arguably have a better outcome under Biden than Trump. Do you not care about those kids or families dealing with Miller’s Nazi beliefs? I know someone who’s been trying for 2 years to bring his wife here, they got married the same year as me and she’s stuck in Europe expecting twins and he’s here. Seems like they won’t find it funny to be subjected to 4 more years of trumps bulls hit and uncertainty. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Aug 21, 2020 21:50
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Glumwheels posted:Why can’t either of you answer the question? Why just deflect and go bbbut Obama and Iraq! its not going to be an improvement if Biden just lays out the infrastructure and begins the State's next crime against humanity that his republican successor finalizes
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Aug 21, 2020 21:53
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Glumwheels posted:Why can’t either of you answer the question? Why just deflect and go bbbut Obama and Iraq! They mention Obama because the guy standing next to him is your alternative to Trump, and that guy sure wasn't pressuring Obama to do better on immigration, and has in fact told immigration activists to go vote for Trump in response to criticism. Joe won't even commit to ending the border wall, you think he's actually going to close the camps?
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Aug 21, 2020 21:53
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joepinetree posted:Once again: I like how you’ve patiently laid out the evidence over and over like this, and it’s continually ignored so that JoeBros can pick and choose among the posts made by dummies like me so they can focus on pedantic arguments about semantics.
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Aug 21, 2020 21:54
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