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CharlestheHammer posted:I get it just fine, if you don’t find it funny that’s whatever comedy is subjective but people seem to think it’s going to be Star Trek with jokes. Which...it isn’t. Star Trek with jokes is The Orville. Which a lot of people very, very vocally love, and can't stop talking about how it's "Real Star Trek again!!!" Which...eugh. I strongly disagree with. The comedic formula of "A middling episode of Voyager that screams to a halt every once in a while so Seth McFarlane can do his 'What's the deal with airline peanuts in space?!?'" leaves me cold more often than not. The show seems to recognize that classic Star Trek had difficult moral dilemmas that the crew would have to struggle with, yet seems singularly disinterested in honestly dealing with the moral dilemmas it presents. Whereas a Next Generation episode might have Picard grappling with both sides of a really thorny ethical problem, The Orville more often than not presents that as "Aliens are being stupid and unreasonable! We know we're right, but the admiral says we can't do anything because PLOT! We'll do what we know is right anyways, and suffer no consequences!" That said, The Orville has its charm. It hits the nostalgia button pretty effectively. But I definitely prefer Lowe Decks, so far. At least it chose a genre and tone and sticks with them. EDIT: I'm not going to change my typo in the last bit because it's obviously a Freudian slip in regards to my particular distaste for that episode.
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Aug 23, 2020 16:07
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CharlestheHammer posted:I get it just fine, if you don’t find it funny that’s whatever comedy is subjective but people seem to think it’s going to be Star Trek with jokes. Which...it isn’t. So let's get this straight. An attempted Star Trek comedy series != Star Trek with jokes. What exactly is it, then?
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Aug 23, 2020 16:35
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Strong Convections posted:As a watcher of BBC/UK shows, the idea of 10 - 15 eps being a short season is something that doesn't quite fit in my brain. Oh come on, the BBC thought having to open a can of filmstock was a shocking extravagance. 
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Aug 23, 2020 16:38
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CharlestheHammer posted:People seem to want character development and character fleshing out but that’s just not what comedies do. Yup. Bojack Horseman, Community, The Good Place, The Orville, Adventure Time... none of these have had any character depth or development whatsoever since comedies don't do that. 
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Aug 23, 2020 16:39
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Super Deuce posted:An attempted Star Trek comedy series != Star Trek with jokes. What exactly is it, then? I basically just covered that in my post directly above yours. Star Trek is not traditionally a comedy series. Sure, it has comedic moments, but it has always had the tone and themes of a drama/adventure show. Star Trek, as it has always been, with jokes is The Orville; a drama/adventure show with jokes (in my opinion) unevenly inserted into the narrative. Lower Decks isn’t Star Trek with jokes. It’s a comedy show, with the themes, tone, pacing, and characters that come with that, set in the Star Trek continuity. It’s a very important distinction.
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Aug 23, 2020 16:42
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MikeJF posted:There's just a whole new tier that's been opened up by 'prestige' where you have absurdly high budgets with short, extremely refined (in theory) single ongoing storyline seasons, I'm really glad you threw in the "(in theory)" there because I feel like this concept has not been paying off nearly as much as was foretold (not about Star Trek, just in general).
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Aug 23, 2020 16:45
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Phylodox posted:I basically just covered that in my post directly above yours. Star Trek is not traditionally a comedy series. Sure, it has comedic moments, but it has always had the tone and themes of a drama/adventure show. Star Trek, as it has always been, with jokes is The Orville; a drama/adventure show with jokes (in my opinion) unevenly inserted into the narrative. Lower Decks isn’t Star Trek with jokes. It’s a comedy show, with the themes, tone, pacing, and characters that come with that, set in the Star Trek continuity. It’s a very important distinction. That's asinine, lol. If it's not Star Trek it's not Star Trek. The jokes part is what is meant to set it apart. Also, nobody calls The Orville "Star Trek with jokes" to mean it's literally Star Trek. They say that to mean it's similarly set. Lower Decks is literally Star Trek with jokes. Well, so far without jokes, but that's their intention.
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Aug 23, 2020 16:50
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Super Deuce posted:That's asinine, lol. If it's not Star Trek it's not Star Trek. The jokes part is what is meant to set it apart. I don’t know if it’s deliberate (I’m inclined to think it is, given your tone in this thread up til now), but you seem to have either misunderstood or mischaracterized everything I said.
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Aug 23, 2020 16:54
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Phylodox posted:I don’t know if it’s deliberate (I’m inclined to think it is, given your tone in this thread up til now), but you seem to have either misunderstood or mischaracterized everything I said. The person I initially responded to literally said a Star Trek comedy series isn't a Star Trek series with jokes. Whatever else you're trying to explain will never refute how stupid that is.
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Aug 23, 2020 16:57
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Super Deuce posted:The person I initially responded to literally said a Star Trek comedy series isn't a Star Trek series with jokes. I explained, quite clearly, how he was right. You countered by being needlessly pedantic and literal.
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Aug 23, 2020 16:59
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It’s Family Guy in space. Ironically, unlike The Orville. One dimensional, serving up jokes that people love or hate, polarizing.
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Aug 23, 2020 17:00
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Martytoof posted:It’s Family Guy in space. Ironically, unlike The Orville. Exactly. Lower Decks is, ironically, what everyone thought The Orville would be, whereas The Orville is what some people seem to think Lower Decks should be.
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Aug 23, 2020 17:03
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Phylodox posted:I explained, quite clearly, how he was right. You countered by being needlessly pedantic and literal. Then it's not Star Trek is it? I don't get how this is so complicated. You're saying a Star Trek series isn't Star Trek, but in some kind of positive way. You're gatekeeping in the dumbest way. You're mistaking an elevator pitch with what it actually is.
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Aug 23, 2020 17:07
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Super Deuce posted:Then it's not Star Trek is it? I don't get how this is so complicated. You're saying a Star Trek series isn't Star Trek, but in some kind of positive way. You're gatekeeping in the dumbest way. Again, you’re just being pointlessly literal. “It’s Star Trek because Star Trek is in the name!!!”, ignoring that Star Trek has had an established genre and (admittedly looser) tone since before many of us were born. This show is the first big departure from that genre and tone, hence it’s not “Star Trek”.
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Aug 23, 2020 17:12
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It's Star Trek if the people who own the copyrights say it is, any philosophical underpinning this thing may have had probably went out the window back in 2009
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Aug 23, 2020 17:16
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Phylodox posted:Again, you’re just being pointlessly literal. “It’s Star Trek because Star Trek is in the name!!!”, ignoring that Star Trek has had an established genre and (admittedly looser) tone since before many of us were born. This show is the first big departure from that genre and tone, hence it’s not “Star Trek”. "It was important to me that if you know everything about Star Trek and you watch this show then it fits into canon and doesn’t break Star Trek" - Mike McMahon, show runner Star Trek: Lower Decks "Within Lower Decks, there is a proper in-canon Star Trek show." Another one.
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Aug 23, 2020 17:17
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Farmer Crack-rear end posted:I'm really glad you threw in the "(in theory)" there because I feel like this concept has not been paying off nearly as much as was foretold (not about Star Trek, just in general). Well the idea with it is that with the shorter seasons you have at least the first draft of the entire season's scripts done before you start filming, so you can properly pace it all out and tie back plot elements and foreshadow as one big narrative with great payoffs without any unexpected issues cropping up later on in the writer's room. But of course, as we know, Discovery at the very least was rushed out and literally being written and rewritten as they filmed in some cases and it seems like a lot of networks trying the prestige thing are looking at that extra time as... well, buffer time that can be eliminated, to tie back to Lower Decks this week. After all, they never needed to write the entire season first before! So the coherency effect of the preplanning never ends up happening. MikeJF fucked around with this message at 17:23 on Aug 23, 2020 |
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Aug 23, 2020 17:19
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A multi-page argument about something this dumb and pedantic is extremely Star Trek, however
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Aug 23, 2020 17:20
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Phylodox posted:Exactly. Lower Decks is, ironically, what everyone thought The Orville would be, whereas The Orville is what some people seem to think Lower Decks should be. Actually, both are good You can't please everyone, OP. In this case, you
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Aug 23, 2020 17:20
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Martytoof posted:It’s Family Guy in space. Ironically, unlike The Orville. LDS is nowhere near as racist or misogynistic as Family Guy is.
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Aug 23, 2020 17:26
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Super Deuce posted:”It was important to me that if you know everything about Star Trek and you watch this show then it fits into canon and doesn’t break Star Trek" - Mike McMahon, show runner Star Trek: Lower Decks This is like talking to a brick wall. I’m talking about tone, genre, and characterization and you’re countering with quotes about continuity. Nothing you just quoted contradicts, or even really speaks to what I’ve said. Yes, Lower Decks could technically slot into the Star Trek timeline without causing any major contradictions. The show itself, however, is wildly different from any of the other shows. If you took a season of The Next Generation and slotted in an episode of Lower Decks it would, in fact, break the show.
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Aug 23, 2020 17:41
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Phylodox posted:This is like talking to a brick wall. I’m talking about tone, genre, and characterization and you’re countering with quotes about continuity. Nothing you just quoted contradicts, or even really speaks to what I’ve said. Yes, Lower Decks could technically slot into the Star Trek timeline without causing any major contradictions. The show itself, however, is wildly different from any of the other shows. So it’s like... Star Trek with jokes? I agree with you that it’s not “Star Trek” but the goal is that it is. You just don’t know the difference between a pitch description and reality.
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Aug 23, 2020 17:50
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Powered Descent posted:Yup. Bojack Horseman, Community, The Good Place, The Orville, Adventure Time... none of these have had any character depth or development whatsoever since comedies don't do that. Yeah those are all examples of shows with faux character development which I hate. It’s not real or long lasting by if you pretend you can trick people into believining it. Adam Sandler does the movie equivalent. Next time name some good comedy series
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Aug 23, 2020 17:54
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Super Deuce posted:So it’s like... Star Trek with jokes? I’m geniunely asking, do you not know what tone is? Like the TNG movies have a genuinely different tone to what the show was. Nothing to with continuity poo poo, they are functionally different properties
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Aug 23, 2020 17:58
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Super Deuce posted:So it’s like... Star Trek with jokes? I can’t. I just can’t anymore. I’m done.
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Aug 23, 2020 17:59
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MikeJF posted:Well the idea with it is that with the shorter seasons you have at least the first draft of the entire season's scripts done before you start filming, I guess (although I would say you don't even need whole first drafts, just story outlines), but decoupling from network broadcasting was also supposed to pay off in terms of having the time to do things right (not having to make an arbitrary "season" schedule), as well as being able to run shows longer (or shorter) if it made sense to do so.
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Aug 23, 2020 18:11
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Snow Cone Capone posted:A multi-page argument about something this dumb and pedantic is extremely Star Trek, however In fact, let's put in some background music. :p https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AphxyjrH4SE edit: fun fact https://www.irishcentral.com/culture/star-trek-miles-obrien-statue-dublin apparently the joke is based on reality. but to quote another forum. Miles O'Brien SF's greatest officer. You're goddamn right! shades of eternity fucked around with this message at 18:17 on Aug 23, 2020 |
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Aug 23, 2020 18:14
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CharlestheHammer posted:I’m geniunely asking, do you not know what tone is? Like the TNG movies have a genuinely different tone to what the show was. Nothing to with continuity poo poo, they are functionally different properties So you’re now going to make an argument that the Star Trek movies aren’t Star Trek?
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Aug 23, 2020 18:15
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Super Deuce posted:So you’re now going to make an argument that the Star Trek movies aren’t Star Trek? Do you not understand the point the poster was making?
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Aug 23, 2020 18:20
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Super Deuce posted:So you’re now going to make an argument that the Star Trek movies aren’t Star Trek? The Star Trek movies vary quite significantly from the shows in terms of tone, while still maintaining the genre and rough themes. They’re more bombastic and adventurous, but still recognizably drama/adventure/morality plays. At their goofiest (say The Voyage Home) they would still never be mistaken for Airplane! Lower Decks is like if First Contact had been Hot Shots!
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Aug 23, 2020 18:21
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An Ounce of Gold posted:Do you not understand the point the poster was making? Lower Decks is garbage but the goal of it is still to be Star Trek. It’s quite literally Star Trek with jokes, which the initial claim we’re talking about denies. Do you not understand their claim is insane? Star Trek isn’t a “tone”.
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Aug 23, 2020 18:26
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Super Deuce posted:Lower Decks is garbage but the goal of it is still to be Star Trek. It’s quite literally Star Trek with jokes, which the initial claim we’re talking about denies. Do you not understand their claim is insane? Star Trek isn’t a “tone”. You could have just said no
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Aug 23, 2020 18:27
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CharlestheHammer posted:Yeah those are all examples of shows with faux character development which I hate. Well, the ones I listed frequently turn up on critics' and viewers' "best of the 2010s" lists (either of comedies or just of shows in general), but hey, that's all a matter of taste. (And there is, of course, plenty of good comedy that doesn't go for deep characterization. I sometimes wish there was more 80s-style zany "blink and you miss three sight gags" parody, like Airplane or Police Squad.) But now you have me intrigued: can you name a few examples of what YOU consider good comedy? It might be that our only disagreement is on the boundaries of the genre.
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Aug 23, 2020 18:28
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CharlestheHammer posted:Yeah those are all examples of shows with faux character development which I hate.  How was Bojack's character development "fake"? If anything, people were complaining that his behaviour kept reverting in new and horrible ways, which is the most realistic "awful person attempts to be better" development I've seen. EDIT: It's fine if you hated it though
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Aug 23, 2020 18:31
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBURlcNpfoo
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Aug 23, 2020 18:34
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Did someone just say the Good Place was bad and had no character development?  Character development was literally the point of the show!
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Aug 23, 2020 19:47
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The_Doctor posted:Did someone just say the Good Place was bad and had no character development? Jesus I missed that.
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Aug 23, 2020 19:54
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The_Doctor posted:Did someone just say the Good Place was bad and had no character development? I was literally about to make this post word for word including the same emoji Talk about telling on yourself
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Aug 23, 2020 20:00
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CharlestheHammer posted:Yeah those are all examples of shows with faux character development which I hate. You seem like a fun person.
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Aug 23, 2020 21:32
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Technowolf posted:LDS is nowhere near as racist or misogynistic as Family Guy is. Right, I’m not trying to imply that it shares all the writing and themes of Family Guy, just that it’s got the makings of a “dumb poo poo happens every week” show with little need to develop the characters beyond caricatures used to play out said dumb stuff. Which is fine. Not every show has to be introspective and deep. Sometimes you just wanna laugh at people cleaning cum out of a holodeck.
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Aug 23, 2020 22:21
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