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I'm excited for this game, they've overhauled the UI and made it newb friendly, so people like myself who aren't that experienced in these types of games will have an easier time getting into it. Kind of the same tact Flight Simulator took, with tonnes of options for beginners to easily get into the swing of things.
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Aug 25, 2020 04:26
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PittTheElder posted:I do think there is an issue of what fans wanted and what game Johan wanted to make. I think a lot of people wanted was an EU4-CK2 mix set in Rome times, and instead what they got was the very gamey game that Johan is a big fan of. Personally I'm on the fan's side on this one, just glad I didn't pre-order that one. Well, it's not just that Johan likes it, it's also that basically every previous complaint from that particular segment of the fanbase had been completely disproven by the actual sales numbers, but Imperator showed that as a matter of fact there is a point where even the general playerbase and not just the grognards think things get too gamey.
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Aug 25, 2020 04:28
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oh cool not available in my country. I'm sure this picket fence will keep me out forever. Imperator had a strong point which was I thought armies with lots of different units that came from different parts of the map was a neat idea, and the game is much better now than on release. I played one game, restored alexanders empire, and I've never felt compelled to go back like CK2/EU4/HoI4. Horsebanger fucked around with this message at 04:38 on Aug 25, 2020 |
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Aug 25, 2020 04:35
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it's probably not fair to compare it to stellaris or imperator, given both are more or less stuff drawn up on the spot instead of sequels (ignoring eu:rome) they're garbo and poorly designed for a whole number of reasons. hearts of iron is the most "recent" comparable title given it's just a sequel, straight up, and while that came out with bugbears it was still fine and good. that said they also added even more of asia while apparently not representing the silk road whatsoever even though that seems like it'd be the simplest thing even without some asian-themed dlc, so what the gently caress.
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Aug 25, 2020 04:44
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Trade itself might be covered by another DLC. They might have just dealt with it very basically (like a straight bonus or something) and want to fully flesh out the trade system later, a la Merchant Republics.
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Aug 25, 2020 06:27
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I think what sold me on this game as a newbie was the fact that I could watch someone play it and be genuinely invested in the outcome of what happens
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Aug 25, 2020 06:57
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https://twitter.com/ProudBavaria/status/1297925137585582091
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Aug 25, 2020 09:31
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Gamerofthegame posted:it's probably not fair to compare it to stellaris or imperator, given both are more or less stuff drawn up on the spot instead of sequels (ignoring eu:rome) One issue with Imperator was mismanaged expectations. A lot of people thought they would get an EU-CK hybrid, but that's not what happened. Especially those coming from CK2 were disappointed by the lack of character/RPG focus. This won't happen with CK3. Everybody knows what they will get, and all previews make clear that Paradox placed a heavy focus on the characters and their interactions. The game might still be bad, but it won't be for (accidentally?) misleading it's buyers about what kind of game they're getting. As for the Silk Road not being in CK3, I have no doubt that it will be part of the merchant republic DLC, and it will undoubtedly also include trans-Saharan trade. It's not realistic to expect every single feature of complete CK2 to be carried over. Some things the devs might just discard as not fitting into CK3, and some they may want to bundle with a planned expansion to make them fit each other better. But if you look at the CK2 DLCs, you will see that a lot of their content are part of base game CK3: Sword of Islam: Muslims are playable from the start. Legacy of Rome: The biggest game changing mechanic, retinues, are in as men-at-arms. The rest doesn't seem to have been carried over. I've seen no mention of mending the Great Schism, or restoring the Roman Empire. Details about the Byzantine Empire seem to be pretty rare, we also don't know if they still follow Imperial Elective, still start with viceroyalties, and I'm also not sure whether Orthodox still follows the Pentarchy or uses the autocephaly mechanic. Sunset Invasion: Probably not in-game, but if there are no Aztecs invading Europe in CK3, I will lose my ability to feel human! The Republic: Not in, will almost certainly get added in later. The Old Gods: Basically in entirely. All religions are playable from the start, and the Old Gods start date is one of the two start dates in CK3. Sons of Abraham: An interesting case. The College of Cardinals, as well as Holy Fury's expanded crusade mechanics are the only two features of CK2 Catholics that I haven't been able to confirm that they are in CK3. But I can't rule those out, either. We don't know exactly how crusades/jihads/great holy wars work yet, and at least from Catholicisms tenets, I can't detect the College of Cardinals. I've skipped most of the live streams, did either of these two features make an appearance in there? Otherwise, Jews are of course playable again, pilgrimages are in, and the Ashari/Mutatelite split could be in or it could have been replaced with another doctrine mechanic. Rajas of India: All Indian feudal rulers are fully playable again. Charlemagne: It's main features are totally absent, since there's no Charlemagne start date, and so events pertaining to his rise are superfluous. Way of Life: Fully integrated into the game, and much expanded. You now have three distinct paths to follow in each of the five lifestyles, and have overall much more control over what you get out of it. You are no longer on the mercy of the RNG whether the event fires that will give you your lifestyle trait, and which of the two you get. It also seems like you will be much more likely to change lifestyles several times per character. Horse Lords: Absent, no hordes are playable, and the Silk Road is missing. This will very likely be another DLC that gets re-released for CK3, although hordes weren't as popular as merchant republics, I think. And the Silk Road would likely not be part of an Horse Lords DLC type, but instead fits in more with the merchant republics. Conclave: Again fully integrated, and expanded in welcome ways. Powerful vassals who demand seats on your council are back. And they want specific council seats, which might not correspond to their highest stats. And I guess there's no reason why the same council seat can't be coveted by more than one of your powerful vassals. But in exchange for making the management of your stronger vassals more difficult, you only need to get their approval to change your inheritance laws, instead of getting the approval of all counts and above. Additionally, your wife now plays a bigger role as a councilor, making skilled wives more valuable. But only if they're unlanded, making it a trade-off if you marry a landed woman to get her titles passed on to your (mutual) heir. You can also modify the feudal contract for each vassal individually, like guaranteeing somebody their place on the council, lowering or raising their tax/levy obligations, or even entering in a special relationship with dukes and above. If they become a scutage, they pay 50% more tax but provide 75% fewer levies, if you declare their duchy a march, they will pay 50% less taxes, but that vassal gets an increased levy and garrison size, lower army upkeep costs, a higher levy reinforcement rate, and an increased defender advantage in their territory. Ideal for a duchy crucial for the defense of the realm. There's much more to vassal management than I just wrote about. This is a field, like religion, where CK3 already looks to be better and deeper than CK2 ever was. Reaper's Due: Status is unclear. Diseases are certainly back in-game, but how expansive the system is remains to be seen. I guess most of what was in Reaper's Due is not in CK3 yet. Monks and Mystics: As far as I can see, most of Monks and Mystics is not in CK3 yet. The more mystical/fantastical elements seem to be absent altogether. For example, faiths that believe in reincarnation can now believe that somebody is a reincarnation of a famous person, giving them prestige and piety bonuses. No random stat increases that hint they really are reincarnated, prestige and piety bonuses only reflect the opinion of other of those "reincarnated" characters. Artifacts are not in CK3, and neither are societies. I consider it very likely that both of those will get re-added later. Jade Dragon: Totally absent. Another candidate to make a comeback, you simply can't have so much of Asia in your game without interactions with China. Many of the new casus belli seem to have made the jump to CK3 at least. Holy Fury: One of it's biggest features, bloodlines, are part of the overhauled dynasty mechanics. Apart from that, most other selling points of this DLC seem to be missing. I already mentioned the lack of societies (so no warrior lodges), the unknown crusade mechanics, and the unclear status of the ERE (so no Imperial Elective?). Shattered World is also not in CK3. So quite a few things are missing, but a lot of features are already in CK3. And if you look at my list of must-have DLCs in the CK2 thread (Old Gods, Way of Life, Conclave, and Holy Fury), you will see that the the first three are already mostly part of Crusader Kings 3. Which shows good judgement by Paradox, shipping the game with some of the most popular CK2 DLC features already in. They didn't just reset the clock and start with an updated base CK2, expecting to selling us all the same DLCs as before. But no one should be under any illusion, selling DLC is the business model of PDX, and it will be a core part of CK3. That said, if initial impressions of CK3 turn out to be right, then I'm very optimistic that for example the merchant republic DLC will bring us even better merchant republics than we ever had in CK2.
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Aug 25, 2020 09:45
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I fully expect CK2 to get sort of Victoria 2 status. Let's be honest, the game is a mess with a lot of disjointed unbalanced mechanics and UI that has a lot of troubles holding it all together. CK3 looks like a slick game. It probably won't have as much broken stuff or obvious choices. It will probably have less of everything but the choices are more meaningful - you can already see it with personality traits (AFAIK 3 is not-so-soft limit), number of available buildings, size of court and so on and so on. In several years true fans would talk about them inviting 24 martial dude on day 1, how the Devil helped you make Byzantine Emperor your pleasure slave, and how you were able to turn yourself into a Varangian horse, funniest poo poo I've ever seen. CK is a story generator so it makes sense to praise it for interesting stories even if gameplay is broken, but I think Paradox overestimates how much people care about balance and gameplay. Players like Florryworry - mechanics-focused players - like Imperator Rome cause mechanics are quite interesting. Many players hated it because it lacked the mythical content, it felt much more like a Risk game were sides don't have a story behind them.
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Aug 25, 2020 09:49
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Torrannor posted:One issue with Imperator was mismanaged expectations. A lot of people thought they would get an EU-CK hybrid, but that's not what happened. Especially those coming from CK2 were disappointed by the lack of character/RPG focus. That's what happened to me. I though I was getting CK2 in Rome (which is probably my fault for not researching more thoroughly?) and wound up super disappointed.
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Aug 25, 2020 09:49
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Torrannor posted:And they want specific council seats, which might not correspond to their highest stats. Oh drat I didn't realise that. I really like having to balance stats with angry vassals when it comes to the council, but sometimes I wish there was like a second, "courtly bureaucracy" that you could just pack with your high-statted, genetically-engineered super-courtiers. It would be cool if some buildings opened up new positions for characters. Like maybe you invest a lot of prestige and money in founding a university, and it creates a university chancellor position whose occupant gets some prestige and renown and also contributes to technology advance based on their stats. Again just trying to think of roles for characters to play outside of being landed nobles.
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Aug 25, 2020 10:22
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ilitarist posted:I think Paradox overestimates how much people care about balance and gameplay. I think most game devs do, as shown by the popularity of cheats, mods giving godlike armour/weapons, etc.
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Aug 25, 2020 10:23
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I wouldn't make that sweeping a conclusion, the popularity of this or that mod or cheat doesn't really indicate anything unless you compare its numbers to those of the complete playerbase of the game itself, and I sincerely doubt the vast majority of them bother with any such thing.
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Aug 25, 2020 10:33
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fuf posted:Oh drat I didn't realise that. I really like having to balance stats with angry vassals when it comes to the council, but sometimes I wish there was like a second, "courtly bureaucracy" that you could just pack with your high-statted, genetically-engineered super-courtiers. Like souped up honorary titles? There were already buildings/great works that gave honorary titles, so I could see a future DLC adding something like this.
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Aug 25, 2020 10:33
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I'm pretty sure hordes are playable, they just use the tribal mechanics. Though this might have been changed since I've read about it.
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Aug 25, 2020 10:34
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Hordes are playable as tribals, catholicism has no college of cardinals or antipopes. Crusade/Jihad mechanics are basically Holy Fury. Ham fucked around with this message at 10:44 on Aug 25, 2020 |
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Aug 25, 2020 10:41
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Torrannor posted:Like souped up honorary titles? There were already buildings/great works that gave honorary titles, so I could see a future DLC adding something like this. Oh yeah I guess so, but more like a permanent role for the character rather than a bonus secondary title alongside their main role (courtier, duke, etc.).
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Aug 25, 2020 10:45
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Oh dear me posted:I think most game devs do, as shown by the popularity of cheats, mods giving godlike armour/weapons, etc. Yeah, probably. They say pro-gamers killed Real-Time Strategy cause devs only saw people on forums and listened to them. And people on forums wanted high skill ceiling, balance, variety, focus on multiplayer. Meanwhile most of casual RTS players wanted some cool campaigns and turtled against AI. Many RTS ditched single-player campaigns altogether and made turtling hopeless because you can't have a good MP scene if turtling is a reliable strategy.
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Aug 25, 2020 13:29
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Torrannor posted:Details about the Byzantine Empire seem to be pretty rare, we also don't know if they still follow Imperial Elective, still start with viceroyalties, and I'm also not sure whether Orthodox still follows the Pentarchy or uses the autocephaly mechanic. Wasn't there a DD or a Q&A where they said the Byzantines have a simplified inheritance structure right now, and expanding that is going to come in a DLC where their goal is to get it much better than CK2 did?
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Aug 25, 2020 13:38
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disaster pastor posted:Wasn't there a DD or a Q&A where they said the Byzantines have a simplified inheritance structure right now, and expanding that is going to come in a DLC where their goal is to get it much better than CK2 did?
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Aug 25, 2020 13:39
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disaster pastor posted:Wasn't there a DD or a Q&A where they said the Byzantines have a simplified inheritance structure right now, and expanding that is going to come in a DLC where their goal is to get it much better than CK2 did? I remember that as well but can't place where they said it.
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Aug 25, 2020 13:44
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disaster pastor posted:Wasn't there a DD or a Q&A where they said the Byzantines have a simplified inheritance structure right now, and expanding that is going to come in a DLC where their goal is to get it much better than CK2 did? The Byzantines will probably share their inheritance structure with China as soon as the inevitable DLC hits.
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Aug 25, 2020 13:46
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https://www.crusaderkings.com/news/dev-diary-39-achievements-showcase Achievements and poo poo
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Aug 25, 2020 13:53
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Ham posted:https://www.crusaderkings.com/news/dev-diary-39-achievements-showcase Most of those seem really fun and not too frustrating. They might be basic but I'm a big fan of 'start as [character] and control [nation]' achievements.
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Aug 25, 2020 14:05
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Vichan posted:Most of those seem really fun and not too frustrating. What the gently caress is going on here though: quote:4. A Perfect Circle: have only two distinct parents, grandparents, and great grandparents, counting absent ancestors as individual characters. And good news! quote:Rise from the Ashes: restore the Roman Empire
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Aug 25, 2020 14:07
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Is there an embargo on streamers until release? I'm hesitant to buy a paradox title without seeing it in action even though I love CK2. Seems strange streamers aren't part of the hype marketing before release.
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Aug 25, 2020 14:10
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Dante posted:Is there an embargo on streamers until release? I'm hesitant to buy a paradox title without seeing it in action even though I love CK2. Seems strange streamers aren't part of the hype marketing before release. I think there should be streams starting soon. The devs have done a few streams of them playing as one of the Jimena kings in Spain that they've put on youtube. First one is here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_wKAvyPJ5M
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Aug 25, 2020 14:18
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They don't have a single achievement about crusading. How? edit: crusading for Jerusalem, anyway. They have the Reconquista and Apulia/Siciliy.
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Aug 25, 2020 14:18
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Dante posted:Is there an embargo on streamers until release? I'm hesitant to buy a paradox title without seeing it in action even though I love CK2. Seems strange streamers aren't part of the hype marketing before release. Streamers will start releasing content around 6PM CEST today. orangelex44 posted:They don't have a single achievement about crusading. How? quote:19. For the Faith: take part in a successful Great Holy War, on either side
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Aug 25, 2020 14:19
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Fair enough... they have one achievement explicitly about crusading, and it doesn't involve Jerusalem or Outremer/the Crusader States.
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Aug 25, 2020 14:21
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Dante posted:Is there an embargo on streamers until release? I'm hesitant to buy a paradox title without seeing it in action even though I love CK2. Seems strange streamers aren't part of the hype marketing before release. https://www.reddit.com/r/CrusaderKings/comments/iftqy7/looks_like_some_youtubers_will_have_ck3_videos_up/ Seems like we get a few streams in a 3 hours or so.
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Aug 25, 2020 14:26
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orangelex44 posted:They don't have a single achievement about crusading. How? It’s pretty obvious why. It’s the same reason they are no longer associating the game with the Latin phrase Deus vult.
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Aug 25, 2020 14:37
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Ham posted:What the gently caress is going on here though: yeah wtf does this mean
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Aug 25, 2020 15:01
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fuf posted:yeah wtf does this mean Sounds like an incest thing to me
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Aug 25, 2020 15:05
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fuf posted:yeah wtf does this mean
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Aug 25, 2020 15:06
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Ham posted:What the gently caress is going on here though: The Hapsburgs!
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Aug 25, 2020 15:06
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fuf posted:yeah wtf does this mean It means that your grandparents had to be brother and sister, and that your parents also had to be brother and sister. ZombieLenin posted:It’s pretty obvious why. It’s the same reason they are no longer associating the game with the Latin phrase Deus vult. I suppose, but the Crusades are literally what the game is named after. It's silly to have four or five achievements about the Reconquista, but none that relate to the most important historical events (or perhaps most wide-ranging in effect, at least) within this era. Hell, they have multiple achievements celebrating incest, which is illegal in much of the world.
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Aug 25, 2020 15:07
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Pylons posted:It was pretty clear that Imperator had a lot of questionable design decisions from the dev diaries, people just bought it thinking the game was good despite those. It wasn't. Imperator's problem is you had mana for every conceivable action but no real reason for it, plus a system that generally seemed like it would make big+powerful realms more stable rather than less. Turns out both of these ended up being huge problems and the game really isn't that fun due to it. CK3 hasn't changed much there except now you can actually use all the prestige/piety you gain instead of hoarding it like a dragon. If anything the more sensible faction system is going to make realms collapse more often. I do worry that we'll get mega-Karling blobs but with cadet branches that may not be an issue. I think the absolute worst-case scenario with CK3 is an un-fun CK2. And if it sucks real bad I can always go back to CK2. Ham posted:https://www.crusaderkings.com/news/dev-diary-39-achievements-showcase This is good. I pretty much only did CK2 runs for specific achievements and by the end some of them got so absurd it turned me off from playing. Like: Starting and staying as a Han Chinese character, be an independent King or Emperor and rule all of North Africa (the Maghreb region). Start in Western Europe and completely conquer the region of Mongolia. Convert both Rome and Constantinople to the same (Indian) religion Conquer continental Western Europe as the Mongol Empire, starting in "Age of the Mongols" bookmark These are all nuts. axeil fucked around with this message at 15:29 on Aug 25, 2020 |
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Aug 25, 2020 15:18
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orangelex44 posted:I suppose, but the Crusades are literally what the game is named after. It's silly to have four or five achievements about the Reconquista, but none that relate to the most important historical events (or perhaps most wide-ranging in effect, at least) within this era. Hell, they have multiple achievements celebrating incest, which is illegal in much of the world. On the other hand, achievements are supposed to be about bragging rights or to highlight something fun people might do. You don't need crusading achievements exactly because it's in the name. It's assumed people won't need achievements to do crusades.
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Aug 25, 2020 15:19
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ilitarist posted:On the other hand, achievements are supposed to be about bragging rights or to highlight something fun people might do. You don't need crusading achievements exactly because it's in the name. It's assumed people won't need achievements to do crusades. There's achievements for a ton of things that people will do just by playing the game. There's literally one for just playing to the last year! There's another one for just going up in rank (count->duke or whatever).
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Aug 25, 2020 15:37
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