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Who will you vote for in 2020? This poll is closed. |
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|---|---|---|---|
| Biden |
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425 | 18.06% |
| Trump |
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105 | 4.46% |
| whoever the Green Party runs |
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307 | 13.05% |
| GOOGLE RON PAUL |
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151 | 6.42% |
| Bernie Sanders |
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346 | 14.70% |
| Stalin |
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246 | 10.45% |
| Satan |
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300 | 12.75% |
| Nobody |
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202 | 8.58% |
| Jess Scarane |
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110 | 4.67% |
| mystery man Brian Carroll of the American Solidarity Party |
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61 | 2.59% |
| Dick Nixon |
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100 | 4.25% |
| Total: | 2089 votes | ||
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DSPaul posted:At the moment, the alternative seems to be re-electing a literal fascist psychopath who is extremely likely to kill, rape, and/or maim us. Even if we assume the "us" part there, why should those lives count more than lives of people abroad? Like, how isn't this just a different spin on the xenophobia of the Trump administration? Covok posted:Just that arguing we should let things get worse on the hope it gets much better later is asking a lot of people. Trump will do a lot of harm in office. He already has. Someone rallied by Trump just shot and killed protestors last night. The argument it would be better if Biden lost ignores the reality of all the people hurt in the interim. It's not like we still can't make things better if the world isn't burning down. It is not at all clear that the campaign that is supported and explicitly celebrates the involvement of Henry Kissinger, Colin Powell, John Negroponte and Bill Kristol is the harm reduction campaign. I am not saying that Trump is the harm reduction campaign either. I just want people to grapple with the level of brutality they think is worth defending. joepinetree fucked around with this message at 18:17 on Aug 26, 2020 |
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Aug 26, 2020 18:15
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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:that's nice. Joe Biden told you that you shouldn't worry about coronavirus, and that it was safe to go out and vote for him. I don't need to be in person to vote...?
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Aug 26, 2020 18:15
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Covok posted:Maybe because people aren't interested in being pawns in a game of political chess and rather live, even briefly, in a slightly better hell? You're still not grappling with the fact that there is no real pressure the left can take to force them to actually move in any significant way if Biden wins. If he wins with this coalition hes winning explicitly by moving the party to the regressive side of politics, courting actual W Bush administration people and their voter base. They don't need progressives support at that point. If you aren't even willing to withhold your vote, which is as far as the election is concerned is your approval, you have no bargaining chip. Biden isnt going to give a poo poo about popular protests or campaigns. Obama didnt, Trump doesnt. And like I said about minorities being targets regardless of who wins, we're all pawns in these monsters political games. They're the ruling class and we are largely held victim to their whims and desires to support the people that line their pockets. I have more respect for human life than to fight for "a slightly better hell".
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Aug 26, 2020 18:16
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joepinetree posted:Even if we assume the "us" part there, why should those lives count more than lives of people abroad? And Trump winning stops the death abroad? That only makes it harder to stop and increases those deaths in the interim.
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Aug 26, 2020 18:17
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Covok posted:Maybe because people aren't interested in being pawns in a game of political chess and rather live, even briefly, in a slightly better hell? Most of those people are tuned the hell out (those ~awful non-voters~) because, as has been mentioned ad nauseum , plenty of the electorate has seen what years/decades of back and forth between both parties has landed them...gently caress all in the grand scheme of things. Incremental change doesn’t cut it anymore (and hasn’t for a while) and it’s infuriating having to keep arguing for something more than loving table scraps when this country (and soon the whole world) is going to be pushed past the point of no return in very short order.
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Aug 26, 2020 18:17
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Covok posted:And Trump winning stops the death abroad? That only makes it harder to stop and increases those deaths in the interim. Why do you think that all the unrepentant promoters of the biggest mass killings in recent history are with Biden? Not a rhetorical question. I sincerely want to know how you reconcile your certainty that Biden is the harm reduction candidate with that little bit of information.
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Aug 26, 2020 18:19
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:You're still not grappling with the fact that there is no real pressure the left can take to force them to actually move in any significant way if Biden wins. If he wins with this coalition hes winning explicitly by moving the party to the regressive side of politics, courting actual W Bush administration people and their voter base. They don't need progressives support at that point. If you aren't even willing to withhold your vote, which is as far as the election is concerned is your approval, you have no bargaining chip. Biden isnt going to give a poo poo about popular protests or campaigns. Obama didnt, Trump doesnt. If you respected human life, why would you help someone who will accelerate the carnage in both the short and long term? Trump winning won't slow anything down and will just move the country even further right in the long term.
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Aug 26, 2020 18:19
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While it wouldn't surprise me too much if fully-digital Plague Conventions have less impact than normal ones (although I strongly support the digital option for attendees), I'm not certain that the summarizing around this (single) poll is even entirely accurate - the convention doesn't seem to have swung many people from pro-Biden to pro-Trump or undecided to pro-Trump, but as the article mentions there are less undecideds right now for some weird reason. And other polling seems to suggest that it increased enthusiasm for Biden, which is consistent with my anecdotal experience. Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:this is explicitly the Joe Biden policy on what should be done to migrant children, op No, it's not. https://www.latimes.com/politics/story/2020-08-17/trump-biden-immigration-policy he admittedly thinks controls on immigration should still exist, which is a shame
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Aug 26, 2020 18:19
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Covok posted:Just that arguing we should let things get worse on the hope it gets much better later is asking a lot of people. Trump will do a lot of harm in office. He already has. Someone rallied by Trump just shot and killed protestors last night. The argument it would be better if Biden lost ignores the reality of all the people hurt in the interim. It's not like we still can't make things better if the world isn't burning down. I mean you're arguing against the memories of protesters shot and killed during obama and biden's administration. The BLM protests aren't explicitly anti-Trump, despite many liberals attempts to co-opt the message. They are occurring mainly against democratic governors and mayors for a reason. While things feel really terrible for you, these past four years have been mostly more of the same horrors. It's why Biden does not have larger numbers among minority groups than Clinton. We know what he did in office, and it's impossible to trust his lackluster promises now.
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Aug 26, 2020 18:20
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Covok posted:Maybe because people aren't interested in being pawns in a game of political chess and rather live, even briefly, in a slightly better hell? The "better" hell isn't actually better, unless you're really excited about that 401k tax credit.
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Aug 26, 2020 18:20
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Covok posted:And Trump winning stops the death abroad? That only makes it harder to stop and increases those deaths in the interim. On this note, US just had some still ambiguous but definite hostilities with Russian (as in uniformed russian military, not mercenaries) forces in Syria. That's two big escalations in a week. https://www.politico.com/news/2020/08/26/us-troops-injured-russian-forces-syria-402347
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Aug 26, 2020 18:24
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DSPaul posted:At the moment, the alternative seems to be re-electing a literal fascist psychopath who is extremely likely to kill, rape, and/or maim us. I see, so you'd rather pick the guy who will kill foreigners abroad than back home, understandable. The NIMBYism of American imperialism
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Aug 26, 2020 18:24
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Herstory Begins Now posted:On this note, That can't be true, Trump is a Russian asset.
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Aug 26, 2020 18:26
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DSPaul posted:At the moment, the alternative seems to be re-electing a literal fascist psychopath who is extremely likely to kill, rape, and/or maim us. Trump is more or less indistinguishable policy wise from any other generic republican grandpa. Aesthetically, yes, of course, he's very mean and rude and ugly &c. &c. which is what liberals care about and what they get worked up about. But, as it turns out, Biden is more-or-less indistinguishable policy wise from any other generic republican grandpa and has been for his whole career. The "ignorant masses" and the enlightened masses and all the masses in general except for the top one percent are going be treated to a lot more than just a decade of grinding misery regardless of who is elected. There's no escaping it now, we've been locked in since Bernie suspended. You want to say Trump is the accelerationist option because oh jeez are you kidding me are you blind he's so crass and awful!! he's a freakin ORANGE CHEETO in the WHITE HOUSE!! Which, fine. I'll argue -- as I have many times before in this thread -- that I could just as easily call the right-wing conservative Dem nominee that will further drag the blue team hard to the right to the extent that in 4-8 years we're left with "fascists" and "fascist but polite" parties the accelerationist option. Maybe you could argue that the acceleration won't be as drastic during the term of Biden's presidency but you're going to have to show your work if you want to argue that post-Biden we're not neatly set up for President Tom Cotton or Elliot Abrams or whatever skulking fascist horror with the actual ideology and competency to carry out everything you think Trump is secretly fomenting but is heroically stopped by Chuck Schumer or whatever. There's this underlying assumption with everyone here who is mad about people not wanting to vote for Joe Biden that Joe is obviously the better choice. If Joe's entire political career didn't convince you that that idea isn't as clear as you maybe assumed, everything that happened since he became the frontrunner -- and especially the DNC -- should have. And, again, this is not me advocating voting for Trump. Motherfuck Trump, that poo poo idiot fucker, don't vote for Trump. But don't reward racist, rapist, warmonger, crime bill author Joe Biden or his TOP COP lackey with your vote, either. We're too far gone for it to matter anyway. The way forward is not through the 2020 presidential election. e: You could just vote for Howie, you know VVVV Pentecoastal Elites fucked around with this message at 18:33 on Aug 26, 2020 |
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Aug 26, 2020 18:28
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Terror Sweat posted:I see, so you'd rather pick the guy who will kill foreigners abroad than back home, understandable. The NIMBYism of American imperialism I’d rather pick neither. But if I absolutely have to pick one — and according to you, I do — then yes, I’ll pick the one who is less likely to brutally murder my friends and family. If that makes me selfish, then it’s a form of selfishness shared by nearly every human being alive. The Church of the Saints has a very small congregation.
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Aug 26, 2020 18:31
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Covok posted:If you respected human life, why would you help someone who will accelerate the carnage in both the short and long term? Trump winning won't slow anything down and will just move the country even further right in the long term. Biden winning wont stop the carnage in any significant way. Hes was VP for the admin that built and started using the concentration camps, the admin that let White nationalism build here in the states while doing horrible gruesome poo poo overseas. Biden is literally running in moving the left party so far to the right it's the Republicans of 2000. Voting for Biden is also just moving the country to the right and getting more people murdered. What do you think a Biden administration will do to actually stop people from dying of preventable diseases or being murdered by cops in the street? Do you believe hes going to defund ice? Or will he just go to a slightly nicer to ignore version of destroying immigrants lives like Obama?
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Aug 26, 2020 18:31
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GreyjoyBastard posted:While it wouldn't surprise me too much if fully-digital Plague Conventions have less impact than normal ones (although I strongly support the digital option for attendees), I'm not certain that the summarizing around this (single) poll is even entirely accurate - the convention doesn't seem to have swung many people from pro-Biden to pro-Trump or undecided to pro-Trump, but as the article mentions there are less undecideds right now for some weird reason. And other polling seems to suggest that it increased enthusiasm for Biden, which is consistent with my anecdotal experience. There are differences between Biden and Trump, but this article vastly exaggerates them: quote:Biden would expand protections for immigrants and restore many of the Obama-era policies overturned by Trump. The former vice president would aim to go further than Obama was able to, working with Congress to establish a pathway to citizenship for the roughly 10.5 million people who are in the U.S. illegally. Since Biden explicitly rejects undoing the filibuster, this is literally meaningless. There is literally no scenario where this gets 60 votes in the senate. quote:Biden has said that during his first 100 days in office he would end Trump’s national emergency declaration, which has rerouted billions in federal funds to the border wall, and instead direct resources toward improving security at ports of entry. But he also opposes dismantling what has been built and his claim isn't one of demilitarizing the border, but instead using "high-tech capacity." In other words, "we're not gonna have a wall, we're gonna get a drone or some motion sensors to dispatch CBP." That is, it opposes the symbolic aspect of the wall, not the practical. quote:The Democrat has sharply criticized Trump’s zero-tolerance policy that separated thousands of families at the border. He’s promised that in his first 100 days he would prioritize family reunifications, reinstate the DACA program and rescind the Trump administration’s travel ban on many Muslim-majority countries. He also completely dropped the promised moratorium on deportations. Like, people focus on child separation but not on the underlying issue. Child separation exists because current law allows adult immigrants to be held indefinitely but not children. So ending child separation means "we will have really fast deportation procedures." quote:Biden’s plan also aims to address the root cause of immigration from Central America. The largest reduction in poverty in Honduran history happened under Zelaya, who was ousted in a coup supported by Obama. There is no "reducing poverty, insecurity and violence" without accepting left wing candidates. It's not some massive coincidence that all the governments that reduced poverty in Latin America ended up couped by the US.
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Aug 26, 2020 18:35
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joepinetree posted:Since Biden explicitly rejects undoing the filibuster, this is literally meaningless. There is literally no scenario where this gets 60 votes in the senate. He's started lightly suggesting he might end the filibuster as of last month. Says he wants to try for bipartisanship first, but it seems even his addled brain is starting to realize that the Republicans are just going to spit on him for four years straight.
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Aug 26, 2020 18:43
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Covok posted:If you respected human life, why would you help someone who will accelerate the carnage in both the short and long term? Trump winning won't slow anything down and will just move the country even further right in the long term. I think that ship has sailed. Also, two terms of Barack Obama gave us the candidacy of Hillary Clinton who ran to the right of Barack Obama in 2008. Handing victories over the Democratic Party does not give them confidence to go left (and if that seems obvious, I'm addressing my past self with these comments too because that's literally how I thought politics worked). At this point, it's all about consolidating power for the donors and that has little to do with the actual outcomes of the election. Again, it's shuffling on the chairs of the Titanic.
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Aug 26, 2020 18:46
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A country of several hundred million (?) people, and the best we could manage to run against a tinpot like Trump was Biden: a mediocre, doddering do-nothing whose supporters can barely muster enthusiasm beyond "I guess I'll support him because maybe we'll get some vaguely left-wing change". That in itself shows me how deep the rot has set into this system, and how putting a band aid over it isn't good enough.
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Aug 26, 2020 18:56
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joepinetree posted:There are differences between Biden and Trump, but this article vastly exaggerates them: Both schumer and biden have been saying they're fine with getting rid of the filibuster for a while now.
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Aug 26, 2020 19:03
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Herstory Begins Now posted:Both schumer and biden have been saying they're fine with getting rid of the filibuster for a while now. They are not fine with it, they said that they believe republicans will work with them once Trump is gone and that it won't be necessary, but that if Republicans are "obstreperous" that they are willing to "look at it."
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Aug 26, 2020 19:14
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It's the same as every Biden promise. Lots of hedging and maybes. They'll do it, if they HAVE to, but they probably won't have to because once Trump's gone his magic spell will be broken and bipartisanship shall reign supreme o'er the realm. But if it doesn't turn out like that they'll look into the idea. Maybe. Meanwhile if the Republicans were to hold the presidency and somehow retake the House the filibuster would be gone in the time it took me to write this post.
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Aug 26, 2020 19:24
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Covok posted:Just that arguing we should let things get worse on the hope it gets much better later is asking a lot of people. Trump will do a lot of harm in office. He already has. Someone rallied by Trump just shot and killed protestors last night. The argument it would be better if Biden lost ignores the reality of all the people hurt in the interim. It's not like we still can't make things better if the world isn't burning down. Do you think Joe '100,000 new cops' Biden might have contributed to the environment of police worship that the shooter was raised in or no
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Aug 26, 2020 20:41
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Unoriginal Name posted:Do you think Joe '100,000 new cops' Biden might have contributed to the environment of police worship that the shooter was raised in or no Could Trump feasibly get re-elected while the House stays blue and the senate possibly flips? Does the senate flipping require Biden to win?
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Aug 26, 2020 20:51
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joepinetree posted:No. The issue is this: Just to be pedantic here since I've had to listen to my IRS dad drone on about taxes my entire life, this needs to be a refundable tax credit for you to be able to get cash back. Some tax credits, like EITC, are fully refundable, so even if your total tax liability is $0, they'll still pay you the EITC. Other tax credits, like energy credits, are non-refundable. So if you have say $1000 in non-refundable tax credits and a total tax liability of $500, they'll reduce your liability to $0 but you won't get a check for $500. Deductions are reductions of your taxable income so you save whatever your marginal rate is. Say you get a $10k deduction, that means you don't pay taxes on the $10k. If your top tax bracket is at say 20%, then you've saved $2k on taxes. Not nearly as good as a $10k dollar-for-dollar credit! All of this plays into but is not solely determinate of whether you get a refund or owe taxes come April! Taxes are a giant confusing mess in this country. This is intentional thanks to the tax preparer lobby! But ultimately this is all stuff for people with enough discretionary income to decide how best to save it rather than the increasing number trying to decide what bills to pay this month. e: Wicked Them Beats posted:The 401k stuff is DemPolicy.txt. A lot of fiddling around the edges of policy and making bureaucratic tweaks that maybe have a net benefit overall, but it's confusing, easily miscommunicated, and it's not clear that the people you're seeking to help will actually see any real benefit. Even if they do, it will be a benefit they likely won't understand the full impact of (and that's if they even realize they're receiving a benefit in the first place - Americans aren't known for their deep understanding of their personal tax liability). yeah this
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Aug 26, 2020 20:52
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The idea that Biden would have any positive impact on the police violence crisis in America is very bizarre to me, it's based on literally nothing at all. He's openly pro-police and on board with imprisoning people for their political beliefs.
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Aug 26, 2020 20:53
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Classon Ave. Robot posted:The idea that Biden would have any positive impact on the police violence crisis in America is very bizarre to me, it's based on literally nothing at all. He's openly pro-police and on board with imprisoning people for their political beliefs. When he increases police funding the police academy in Kenosha can add "don't shoot unarmed people in the back" and "stop militia members from murdering people, even if the gunman is white" to their curriculum. This is a training issue, clearly.
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Aug 26, 2020 20:57
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brugroffil posted:Just to be pedantic here since I've had to listen to my IRS dad drone on about taxes my entire life, this needs to be a refundable tax credit for you to be able to get cash back. Some tax credits, like EITC, are fully refundable, so even if your total tax liability is $0, they'll still pay you the EITC. Other tax credits, like energy credits, are non-refundable. So if you have say $1000 in non-refundable tax credits and a total tax liability of $500, they'll reduce your liability to $0 but you won't get a check for $500. Yes, it is explicitly a refundable tax credit.
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Aug 26, 2020 20:57
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Classon Ave. Robot posted:The idea that Biden would have any positive impact on the police violence crisis in America is very bizarre to me, it's based on literally nothing at all. He's openly pro-police and on board with imprisoning people for their political beliefs. Timeless Appeal fucked around with this message at 21:06 on Aug 26, 2020 |
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Aug 26, 2020 20:59
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Kraftwerk posted:Could Trump feasibly get re-elected while the House stays blue and the senate possibly flips? Does the senate flipping require Biden to win? That's a weird election though.
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Aug 26, 2020 21:00
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Timeless Appeal posted:There is a reform bill actually sitting in Limbo that even some House Republicans voted for which Biden would almost definitely sign into Law if the Dems take the Senate. Three. Three Republicans.
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Aug 26, 2020 21:00
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Wicked Them Beats posted:Three. Three Republicans.
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Aug 26, 2020 21:02
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Covok posted:Just that arguing we should let things get worse on the hope it gets much better later is asking a lot of people. Trump will do a lot of harm in office. He already has. Someone rallied by Trump just shot and killed protestors last night. The argument it would be better if Biden lost ignores the reality of all the people hurt in the interim. It's not like we still can't make things better if the world isn't burning down. Exactly this. I understand not liking Biden. But Trump being allowed to serve 4 more years will hurt (or kill) a lot of people directly. The supreme Court would kill woman's right to choose. It's usually people coming from a place of privilege saying they won't vote for Biden "out of principle". Okay, but unless you're in a very solid blue state you might be getting a lot of the people you in theory care about killed or hurt.
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Aug 26, 2020 21:03
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imo things will continue to get worse at an accelerating pace under Biden, but the acceleration rate will be slightly lower
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Aug 26, 2020 21:05
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F_Shit_Fitzgerald posted:A country of several hundred million (?) people, and the best we could manage to run against a tinpot like Trump was Biden: a mediocre, doddering do-nothing whose supporters can barely muster enthusiasm beyond "I guess I'll support him because maybe we'll get some vaguely left-wing change". That in itself shows me how deep the rot has set into this system, and how putting a band aid over it isn't good enough. But Bernie was supposed to turn out the youth. Look. If we could actually get the teens to care and vote (and 20 somethings) we could easily swing the country to the left. But instead of doing that, a lot of smart people on here prefer the echo chamber of complaining about nothing matter's and Biden being awful. I get it. But there's also been some people in here who've worked on campaigns, and still plan on voting for Biden because it actually makes sense, and they get yelled at. Yet they're the ones actually doing something. It's why AOC is targeted so much. She's smart and has good policies, but more than that, she's an effective communicator. And by the way, Bernie's polices are far, far better than Biden's. I'm not complaining about that. I'm saying, the left needs to do a much better job of actually getting the numbers behind them. it's such a small group of people who actually vote. The trick is getting more of them to vote by explaining policy, not just yelling at everyone. (this is not a decorum post).
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Aug 26, 2020 21:08
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brugroffil posted:imo things will continue to get worse at an accelerating pace under Biden, but the acceleration rate will be slightly lower Some things would get worse. other's would not (Supreme courts for one, getting us out of this pandemic would be another).
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Aug 26, 2020 21:09
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LionArcher posted:But Bernie was supposed to turn out the youth. Explaining policy is meaningless when all the policies that Sanders supported and Biden does not are massively popular within the Democratic party. This is not a question of education or illuminating the issues, it's about manufacturing consent for a democratic party apparatus that doesn't want to implement the policies its base wants them to implement.
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Aug 26, 2020 21:12
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LionArcher posted:But Bernie was supposed to turn out the youth. Why don't young people "care and vote"? Could it be that a) their votes are suppressed, and b) they feel that nobody is listening to them, and c) everyone running is a fossil (both candidates are in the mid to high 70s)? Primary voters overwhelmingly supported M4A, the Green New Deal and legal weed. None of those things got in Biden's platform, so the problem seems to be less with the left and more with a system that boils down to the same face of capital in two different-colored suits: one red, one blue.
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Aug 26, 2020 21:12
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F_Shit_Fitzgerald posted:Primary voters overwhelmingly supported M4A, the Green New Deal and legal weed. None of those things got in Biden's platform, so the problem seems to be less with the left and more with a system that boils down to the same face of capital in two different-colored suits: one red, one blue. A lot of people who voted for Biden thought he supported M4A.
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Aug 26, 2020 21:16
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