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Isshiki might be one of my favorite Naruto villains since the before Madara times. He's been getting a lotta good character moments and his simple powerset lets them use practical counters. Just, mwah! Delicious.
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Aug 20, 2020 17:09
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Sasuke proving once again he's the worst father ever. Admittadly a pretty good ninja though
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Aug 20, 2020 18:08
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McCloud posted:Sasuke proving once again he's the worst father ever. Admittadly a pretty good ninja though He a great father, not to his own child but it's something. Question why do, Naruto and Sasuke who beat Momoshiki and his partner who's name I can't be bothered to look up, need Momoshiki to beat Isshiki? I do love they show how useless shuriken still are when Issiki throws them back the only resonse to all 3 hitting (one in the face) is an "Ow!" and the guy being fine next panel.
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Aug 20, 2020 18:50
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TheKirbs posted:I do love they show how useless shuriken still are when Issiki throws them back the only resonse to all 3 hitting (one in the face) is an "Ow!" and the guy being fine next panel. What there were two guys.
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Aug 20, 2020 20:29
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TheKirbs posted:He a great father, not to his own child but it's something. I mean, Naruto wanted Boruto to be safe. Sasuke is the one like "dw if you get possessed by an alien I'll kill you" and chucked him into danger. Naruto and Sasuke fought a weaker Isshiki and lost. Admittedly, they have a much better idea of what Isshiki can do this time while previously they went in blind. Also what MonsterEnvy said. The other guy got a big ouch.
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Aug 20, 2020 21:00
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Shuriken are low might low critical weapons. Jiren is still a great villain and I do like how the mangaka keeps bringing back some strategy into the fights so it isn't just bigger Rasengans all the time. Now if only he could draw and this manga could be pretty great. I originally wanted to say it could be better than Naruto, but then I did like how (early) Naruto at least had the message about working hard to change your destiny. It had something to say, Boruto doesn't have that as far as I can see.
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Aug 21, 2020 08:24
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Darth TNT posted:Shuriken are low might low critical weapons. You could honestly make an argument that Boruto's main conflict is tradition vs progress. A lot of Boruto's story arcs have revolved around people's obsession with the past or the future causing problems because of a lack of moderation. And the main villains are literally a bunch of alien boomers refusing to accept change. This amuses me in multiple levels
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Aug 25, 2020 06:59
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Logical1234 posted:You could honestly make an argument that Boruto's main conflict is tradition vs progress. A lot of Boruto's story arcs have revolved around people's obsession with the past or the future causing problems because of a lack of moderation. They seemed to want to say that, but I'm not really seeing it beyond a few earlier skirmishes.
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Aug 25, 2020 08:34
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Wasn't another theme of original Naruto the new generation surpassing the old? They could just be saying that again.
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Aug 25, 2020 14:47
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TheHan posted:Wasn't another theme of original Naruto the new generation surpassing the old? They could just be saying that again. It got kind of undermined by all the olds coming back to kick significantly more rear end than everyone who wasn't Naruto and Sasuke, multiple times.
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Aug 25, 2020 20:54
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Something something hard work over genius.
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Aug 26, 2020 00:00
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Schubalts posted:Something something hard work over genius. That kinda went away with Sasuke's eyehax and Naruto going Super Saiyan, though.
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Aug 26, 2020 02:03
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So pretty much the only theme not abandoned by the end was that having friends is cool.
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Aug 26, 2020 05:35
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Schubalts posted:Something something hard work over genius. That was always kind of silly when we had Naruto and Sasuke spending all night in the woods to learn to walk on trees.
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Aug 26, 2020 06:00
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TheHan posted:So pretty much the only theme not abandoned by the end was that having friends is cool. And it's okay to forgive people who killed thousands if they're cool guys. Early Boruto feels like late Naruto, except with more strategy.
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Aug 26, 2020 07:51
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TheHan posted:So pretty much the only theme not abandoned by the end was that having friends is cool. I chalk it up to the basically poo poo nature of the Fourth War. All the deep and meaningful themes got tossed to the wayside in favor of a loosely connected and ever escalating series of badass scenes. Exactly like Kishimoto had already written the thematic and emotional climax of the series and had nothing left to draw from that well, so just kept drawing kickass fight scenes and slopped together a bunch of mumble-mumble-Madara-something-mumble as a connecting story. e. I'm going to call the above unfair. The Pain arc might have been Naruto's thematic and emotional climax, but it wasn't Sasuke's. So I'll theorize - and this is pure speculation here - Kishimoto had planned a much smaller scale Fourth World War, involving Sasuke and Obito teaming up and taking on the shinobi world. Edo Tensei would still have happened, it's necessary to bring back Itachi to set up Sasuke's redemption arc, but Obito would have been the actual final villain, using the actual Tailed Beasts like originally stated instead of Ten Tails bullshit. Sasuke would switch sides back to Konoha after realizing Obito was just using him, and the Naruto-Sasuke final confrontation would not involve a Ninja Mecha brawl or re-landscaping the Valley of the End. The whole thing would have wrapped up with just two or three more story arcs. But instead Kishimoto wasn't allowed to stop because money, so gently caress it, let's pour the eyehax on Sasuke and completely trash the thematic value of Sage mode by adding Kurama mode, bring out the real Madara and make him too OP for the protagonists to kill, then a Giant Space Flea from Nowhere, and a bunch of really cool looking but otherwise unrelated and thematically inappropriate poo poo to pad this cash cow out until it doubled it's originally intended length. e2. Sasuke loses to Naruto and comes home because the metaphorical blindness of revenge was cleared by the literal blindness of overusing the Mangekyo - by losing his sight, Sasuke could finally see. This could have been the way Naruto ended if not for power creep - if Naruto's themes are hard work beats talent and the sacrifices you make for friends, this would have been the inverse theme for Sasuke, that talent alone leaves you nothing but a blind cripple, but your friends can guide you home again. Goddamn that would have been a hell of an ending. rndmnmbr fucked around with this message at 09:18 on Aug 26, 2020 |
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Aug 26, 2020 08:37
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That actually sounds pretty good. Though in your version, should Tobi have turned out to be the real Madara or just keep it as Obito carrying on his name and legacy?
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Aug 26, 2020 12:34
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TheKirbs posted:
I'm glad they did this, and considering how even the lowest levels of ninja training involves throwing real shuriken and kunais at each other. Like what's supposed to happen if someone actually got hit? Of course in this universe no one ever did.
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Aug 26, 2020 13:51
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Have throwing weapons ever been useful for anything in this series (even counting movies, specials and anime filler)?
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Aug 26, 2020 14:09
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Larryb posted:Have throwing weapons ever been useful for anything in this series (even counting movies, specials and anime filler)? Didn’t you read the previous chapter? They’re great as a distraction
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Aug 26, 2020 14:15
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Darth TNT posted:Didn’t you read the previous chapter? They’re great as a distraction Fair enough
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Aug 26, 2020 14:21
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It's worth noting that the hard work vs natural talent thing was never actually a theme outside the Chunin exams, and even then it's pretty clear Neji does work hard and Naruto's issue is Neji's fatalistic mentality and hatred for Hinata. It's really just Lee who's so hardcore on the Hard Work thing. The primary theme of Naruto was always what is it worth fighting for, what is it worth being strong for. That's why Naruto is strong for the sake of others and Sasuke is strong for the sake of himself (but many of his best moments early on were in the service of protecting others). This is why the literal first major antagonist is a guy who's whole deal is strength for the sake of strength, except he secretly had a heart the entire time and being a Ninja had forced him to kill it just to survive and succeed. Heck it's even Iruka and Mizuki, Iruka acts in defense of Naruto he's literally using his strength (and being strong) for the sake of someone else, whilst Mizuki lies and steals and cheats to improve himself above others. Now in all fairness, I don't actually know if the Fourth Ninja War managed to satisfactorily use this theme, but I'm pretty sure it's always been the big theme of Naruto and all the other stuff was a lot less central. Haku makes a huge speech about being strong for the sake of one person being the most important thing in the world and Naruto ultimately refutes it by choosing to be strong for everyone (even his enemies).
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Aug 26, 2020 15:04
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Hard work vs talent was just Rock Lee's motto.
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Aug 26, 2020 15:14
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Dexo posted:Hard work vs talent was just Rock Lee's motto. Naruto as well actually. He sucked at henge, he sucked at shadow clones (until the forbidden scroll) he only learned a bunch of skills via impressive hacking. He was never talented, supposedly Sasuke was.
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Aug 26, 2020 16:39
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Darth TNT posted:Naruto as well actually. He sucked at henge, he sucked at shadow clones (until the forbidden scroll) he only learned a bunch of skills via impressive hacking. He was never talented, supposedly Sasuke was. He had a literal deity inside him to provide infinite chakra.
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Aug 26, 2020 22:00
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Sasuke is talented AND works hard though, even as early as the first couple chapters Kakashi comments that he knows jutsus he shouldn't typically know at his age. In a flashback we see baby Sasuke burning his face training to master the fireball jutsu for his dad. Plus, anything he learned after the clan died outside of the school standards would've been self-taught and he still made it to the top of the class. Given the official shinobi method for dealing with orphans was 'eh they'll be fine all alone', we can assume nobody was teaching or tutoring him, just like nobody taught Naruto. Pyrotoad fucked around with this message at 22:29 on Aug 26, 2020 |
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Aug 26, 2020 22:04
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It could've been spun as them both being hard working, but Sasuke always seems to have an easy out like the sharingan or the curse mark. Then since these are the same tools that lead him down a path of darkness you can point to it and go "See? Shoulda just worked harder" Course that doesn't mesh with Naruto also getting a pre-loaded easy out and both of them being handed the six paths power to save the day but y'now, it was close.
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Aug 26, 2020 23:27
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i don’t think that something officially named Curse Mark can be realistically considered a cheat that makes it so you don’t have to work as hard. also naruto’s infinite chakra hindered him until he was able to learn how to actually use it
dudermcbrohan fucked around with this message at 23:37 on Aug 26, 2020 |
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Aug 26, 2020 23:35
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Besides having to live through the initiation did the curse mark actually have a downside?
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Aug 26, 2020 23:40
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Also technically Sasuke didn’t exactly “want” the Curse Mark at first as it was something Orochimaru forced onto him. He was quick to take advantage of it though. But no, aside from some pain and going out of control the first time it activated I can’t really remember any negative aspects to the mark.
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Aug 26, 2020 23:41
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Thoren posted:He had a literal deity inside him to provide infinite chakra. The culmination of Naruto’s hard work was learning to coexist with Kurama and healing his heart from all the hate. Naruto didn’t have Kurama’s trust until the endgame of the war
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Aug 26, 2020 23:59
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Darth TNT posted:Naruto as well actually. He sucked at henge, he sucked at shadow clones (until the forbidden scroll) he only learned a bunch of skills via impressive hacking. He was never talented, supposedly Sasuke was. I’m pretty sure Naruto actually has noticeably good henge skills (he just uses a different name for it) and he sucked at regular clones but learnt Shadow Clones in one night (which is a skill most Jounin cannot learn period) he’s not a natural born genius like Sasuke or Kakashi but to say he was born without talent is ridiculous given how easily he picks up complicated techniques. Of course Sasuke’s supposed talent comes from a ludicrous amount of self-dedication due to originally wanting to be as good as Itachi and then later wanting to be good enough to kill Itachi. Carlosologist posted:The culmination of Naruto’s hard work was learning to coexist with Kurama and healing his heart from all the hate. Naruto didn’t have Kurama’s trust until the endgame of the war Which again ties back into the theme of fighting for other people. Naruto learns to respect the monster that has ruined his childhood and in fact become it’s friend and advocate. Also he didn’t need Kurama’s trust to have a massively inflated chakra pool. The downside of the Curse Mark is that it leaves you emotionally unstable and susceptible to Orochimaru’s influence and control. Lord_Magmar fucked around with this message at 05:15 on Aug 28, 2020 |
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Aug 27, 2020 01:24
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Lord_Magmar posted:Which again ties back into the theme of fighting for other people. Naruto learns to respect the monster that has ruined his childhood and in fact become it’s friend and advocate. Also he didn’t need Kurama’s trust to have a massively inflated chakra pool. sure he didn't need Kurama's trust but he couldn't effectively use the chakra there. it was an active handicap until he trained with B I agree with the point about fighting for others
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Aug 27, 2020 01:27
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Carlosologist posted:sure he didn't need Kurama's trust but he couldn't effectively use the chakra there. it was an active handicap until he trained with B Naruto’s ability to use 1000 Shadow Clones at age 12 without dying is a direct result of him having Kage level Chakra just from the sealed Kyuubi existing inside him. He was also pretty effective with the Kyuubi Chakra all through the original series it was only going above 4 tails that was causing problems without the friendship and partnership with Kurama.
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Aug 27, 2020 01:30
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Naruto suffers heavily from the fact its run went on so long and more and more setting details kept getting backfilled in. Like Naruto and Sasuke are hilariously terrible ninja at 12 who haven't learned basic movement techniques but everyone is treating Sasuke like a genius. Meanwhile basically every other ninja of note over the previous 20 years got a backstory that amounts to them being at post time-skip Naruto and Sasuke level when they were 6 years old. Like Naruto and Sasuke are comically inept when you compare how they perform as new Genin to basically any other Ninja we get to see.
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Aug 27, 2020 01:30
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Zore posted:Naruto suffers heavily from the fact its run went on so long and more and more setting details kept getting backfilled in. Like Naruto and Sasuke are hilariously terrible ninja at 12 who haven't learned basic movement techniques but everyone is treating Sasuke like a genius. Meanwhile basically every other ninja of note over the previous 20 years got a backstory that amounts to them being at post time-skip Naruto and Sasuke level when they were 6 years old. They were in a time of peace and all those 6 year olds were from a time of war. They’re impressive for their situation and compared to their class/peers. Itachi is treated as an insane outlier instead of a realistic situation for their time and place.
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Aug 27, 2020 01:32
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TheHan posted:Besides having to live through the initiation did the curse mark actually have a downside? It nerfed Sasuke during his preliminary match against that one Sound guy, and makes you really ugly when it's in full swing. Plus Orochimaru can casually reincarnate himself through it.
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Aug 27, 2020 07:24
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Thoren posted:He had a literal deity inside him to provide infinite chakra. Lord_Magmar posted:I’m pretty sure Naruto actually has noticeably good henge skills (he just uses a different name for it) and he sucked at regular clones but learnt Shadow Clones in one night (which is a skill most Jounin cannot learn period) he’s not a natural born genius like Sasuke or Kakashi but to say he was born without talent is ridiculous given how easily he picks up complicated techniques. He failed his Henge exam with Iruka. He couldn't become a proper 3rd image, but like you said, he did make his own variation. So it may be more of a situation where he just wasn't motivated enough. Same with the shadow clones and normal clones. Then again, he was also good enough to henge into a shuriken. His teachers make a point of pointing out that Naruto isn't talented. He has infinite chakra and shadow clones that gives him experience to make up for it though. I hadn't looked at Sasuke that way yet, I mostly look at him through the lens of Itachi who was hailed as a genius and easily lived up to his hype. But like you said, Sasuke was alone most of the time.
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Aug 27, 2020 12:05
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There is a fan theory that Naruto just can't get jutsu that doesn't require ridiculous amounts of chakra, because his control is bad because he's effectively constantly chakra overloaded thanks to Kurama.
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Aug 28, 2020 00:24
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Darth TNT posted:Which allowed for hacking, but didn't exactly make him talented. He failed the Henge exam because he didn't do what Iruka asked, not because he couldn't Henge. Basically an attitude failure not an aptitude failure. He learnt the Rasengan faster than anyone else afaik, he's not traditionally talented but in certain specific areas he's very capable. Naruto specifically fails the exam to graduate the academy because he cannot create clones, it's the only thing he outright fails at. He's got poo poo grades but they were at least passable and it's ultimately Iruka's choice to fail him for the clone, Mizuki in that conversation implies he could've passed but Iruka had the final say. rndmnmbr posted:There is a fan theory that Naruto just can't get jutsu that doesn't require ridiculous amounts of chakra, because his control is bad because he's effectively constantly chakra overloaded thanks to Kurama. Whilst this is a good theory and would've been a great explanation, oddly enough in the cases where we know the result of over vs under use Naruto actually under uses Chakra. His clones are sickly and weak because he doesn't use enough and when doing the tree climbing he slips off, it's Sasuke who overloads the tree climbing and explodes. Possibly his sheer amount makes it hard for him to manage the small increments required for such simple techniques and so he under-shoots out of desperate hope. Which would fit with being able to Transform/Sexy jutsu (the amount of Chakra probably translates to how long you can hold the transformation nothing more so under shooting doesn't matter and Naruto just is able to keep it up forever) and the Kawarimi (the amount of chakra probably based on the size of the object being swapped and the distance swapped, so Naruto doesn't have to do anything but perform the Jutsu and it will work because he doesn't need to choose how much Chakra to use, possibly other people would have problems if the swap they're attempting is too big or too far and thus sap all their chakra).
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Aug 28, 2020 05:26
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