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Weka posted:
The Saami do indeed practice fencing as they need it for the marking of newborn calves, the taming of the lead reindeer, and keeping the male flock during winter. Pigs likewise have a hierarchical social structure that humans can take advantage of, it's somewhat matriarchal which might be where your confusion comes from. You do need record keeping though to do so with the kind of efficiency domestication needs. Remember that domestication in effect requires a lot of incest. If a species breeds too slowly Pop can't tell Junior who sired who so he can "double-up" on those traits. If the breeding cycle is too long it becomes difficult to fit in human memory.
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Aug 25, 2020 01:38
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euphronius posted:They could just go down the Red Sea to get to the Indian Ocean tho. Isn't the red sea super full of reefs and hazards and stuff?
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Aug 25, 2020 01:42
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CommonShore posted:Isn't the red sea super full of reefs and hazards and stuff? maybe but shipping channels aren't hard to dredge and we've been doing poo poo like that for thousands of years. The reason the dutch sailed south africa wasn't for expediency. it was because they didn't have access to the red sea or persian gulf. Romans could certainly have done it, but there would need to be something worthwhile down there. They controlled access to the red sea so why would they need to sail around Africa?
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Aug 25, 2020 02:03
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Alhazred posted:Roman children wasn't named in the order in which they were born, but after the month they was born in. Quinctius didn't get his name because he was the fifth child but because he was born in july. Yeah Japanese children were named in the way the comic references but not Romans. The author is probably just conflating the two.
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Aug 25, 2020 02:14
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CommonShore posted:Isn't the red sea super full of reefs and hazards and stuff? the romans sent large trade fleets to india from egypt on a regular basis for a very long time. it's one of those things that's sort of glossed over unless you dig deep enough, but all of the grain from the nile was not the only reason egypt was the most valued province in the empire.
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Aug 25, 2020 02:36
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galagazombie posted:The Saami do indeed practice fencing as they need it for the marking of newborn calves, the taming of the lead reindeer, and keeping the male flock during winter. IIRC domesticated livestock are dumb as rocks and do plenty of incest even if you try to stop them.
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Aug 25, 2020 02:48
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galagazombie posted:The Saami do indeed practice fencing as they need it for the marking of newborn calves For a second you had me thinking they were marking the calves Zorro style
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Aug 25, 2020 05:47
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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Teriyaki Hairpiece posted:Yeah Japanese children were named in the way the comic references but not Romans. The author is probably just conflating the two. It's a common myth that the romans did it.
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Aug 25, 2020 14:42
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galagazombie posted:You do need record keeping though to do so with the kind of efficiency domestication needs. Remember that domestication in effect requires a lot of incest. If a species breeds too slowly Pop can't tell Junior who sired who so he can "double-up" on those traits. If the breeding cycle is too long it becomes difficult to fit in human memory. I think it’s easy to over emphasize how much of domestication was an active intentional process. Frankly I suspect domestication was much more similar in most species how people in this thread have describe the process for cats. Especially when we talk about dogs, even today most dogs breed uncontrolled and if they even have a master, they do still still have to defend themselves, mate and forage somewhat independently. Of course when we think about dogs today we usually think about, you know pugs and stuff, created in England. We don’t think about all the scraggly hordes village dogs living on the outskirts of town in India or China or Mexico. But when we talk about dog evolution it’s the latter situation that would’ve been more typical throughout the whole breath of history.
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Aug 25, 2020 18:24
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One thing I think worth noting is how many domestic animal still have an instinct to carry themselves away and hide during the process of childbirth. For a stray dog or cat this isn’t just a relic instinct in my opinion. Many cases they are actively taking steps to hide and protect their young from humans. Because they have specifically adapted to protect their young from humans that may try and destroy unwanted puppies or kittens. Don’t assume the animal was purely a passive subject in the process of domestication.
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Aug 25, 2020 18:27
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A+ avatar/post combo
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Aug 25, 2020 19:43
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They are also super duper vulnerable for a very long time during childbirth, if you're a cat living on the fringes of human society i would guess that a much bigger existential threat is getting killed while you're giving babies and not humans taking your kittens away.
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Aug 25, 2020 22:01
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Arglebargle III posted:IIRC domesticated livestock are dumb as rocks and do plenty of incest even if you try to stop them. the lizard people have trained us well
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Aug 26, 2020 00:48
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Squalid posted:One thing I think worth noting is how many domestic animal still have an instinct to carry themselves away and hide during the process of childbirth. For a stray dog or cat this isn’t just a relic instinct in my opinion. Many cases they are actively taking steps to hide and protect their young from humans. Because they have specifically adapted to protect their young from humans that may try and destroy unwanted puppies or kittens. Don’t assume the animal was purely a passive subject in the process of domestication. I seriously doubt that they are protecting young from humans as much as from predators in general.
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Aug 26, 2020 18:06
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Cessna posted:I seriously doubt that they are protecting young from humans as much as from predators in general. From the viewpoint of a stray cat, Humans are predators. That those weird-rear end looking monsters are sometimes not totally evil must just be confusing for them. This reminds me of a story a goon shared in one of the cat threads. He one day found the secret place under a tree a cat used to hide her kittens and put food out for the mother. His dumbass neighbors found the same place and decided on a whim that they wanted a kitten. Just one, though! So they wandered in when the mother was out hunting for food and just snatched one of the kittens. They had no idea how to care for a kitten and it was too young anyway, so it soon died. They apparently even buried the dead kitten in their garden, not that far away from the other kittens, which just makes this even more monstrous. The mother of course came back to find one kitten mysteriously missing and decided it must just be wandering around somewhere? I don't know, I'm not a catologist, but apparently because no visible predator was there and the other kittens were left unharmed, she must have believed her kitten must still be alive and somewhere near. She spend several nights frantically searching for her missing baby, including very loudly calling for it. I can't remember what the goon did after that pointless kitten killing, but the core of the story is clear: Humans are dangerous, protect your kittens!
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Aug 26, 2020 18:46
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Libluini posted:From the viewpoint of a stray cat, Humans are predators. That those weird-rear end looking monsters are sometimes not totally evil must just be confusing for them. That's my point. Cats aren't just concerned about humans, they're wary of ALL predators, of which humans are just a sub-set.
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Aug 27, 2020 04:00
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PittTheElder posted:You do to get past Cape Bojador. Cape Bojador is actually quite deadly. The winds quite suddenly start to carry you further across the Sahara Coast or outwards into the Atlantic. There is scant water or food to be found in the West Sahara, so ships rounding the cape have no ability to resupply on the long voyage back. The trick of sailing way into the Central Atlantic and then cutting East at the Azores is not obvious, and it's difficult to imagine a ship crew making such a decision in a crisis. Especially if the Azores are unknown to them.
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Aug 27, 2020 07:29
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Cessna posted:That's my point. Cats aren't just concerned about humans, they're wary of ALL predators, of which humans are just a sub-set. Welp, sorry. Completely misinterpreted what you were saying.
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Aug 27, 2020 08:55
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I didn't know about Roman naming and months until I just read it. I assumed it was the first couple of kids get real names and then it's just "another kid? gently caress it you're called 4th, 5th, 6th etc" Somehow just naming them after the month they were born in seems just as bad.
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Aug 27, 2020 10:53
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I know this isn't quite the right thread for this, so sorry. I'm looking to read more about Arthurian Legend / Matter of Britain. I'm not so much looking for the stories themselves, but a discussion about how they evolved and branched. Aimed at the lay person, rather than something scholarly. Any recommendations?
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Aug 27, 2020 12:23
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FightingMongoose posted:I know this isn't quite the right thread for this, so sorry. I don't know about a book, but Arthur was likely based on one of the first people to take charge after Roman abandonment. Camelot may be an anglicization of the Roman Camulodunum.
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Aug 27, 2020 12:25
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FightingMongoose posted:I know this isn't quite the right thread for this, so sorry. I got u fam https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3617881 (I'm doing a similar thread on Robin Hood now: https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3934938 ) Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 13:01 on Aug 27, 2020 |
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Aug 27, 2020 12:53
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Amazing, thanks.
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Aug 27, 2020 13:02
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very interesting summary of the situation in Britain after the Romans left: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3OUm7FiXIY
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Aug 29, 2020 03:20
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I'm reading a book called Spartan Women and in it the author is talking about Plutarch who held contradictory views on how he preferred things be done with regards to women, Spartan vs. Roman. Th author claims it was custom to marry girls off in Rome at about 12 so they could be molded into the perfect wife as they grew up. Is this true? It reminds me of discussions I had way back when I read A Song of Ice and Fire, people online talking about how the idea adult men were loving 13-year-old girls and impregnating them like happened with Dany is idiotic and unrealistic. I mean, the idea this was an institutionalized practice is supposedly idiotic and ahistorical.
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Aug 29, 2020 05:16
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NikkolasKing posted:I'm reading a book called Spartan Women and in it the author is talking about Plutarch who held contradictory views on how he preferred things be done with regards to women, Spartan vs. Roman. Th author claims it was custom to marry girls off in Rome at about 12 so they could be molded into the perfect wife as they grew up. Is this true? I'm not sure about Roman custom but anybody who thinks that institutionalized child marriage is implausible doesn't know anything about the issue. In many places today, let alone the past, 13 year olds getting married is completely normal. Yemen for example: Familes increasingly resort to child marriage as Yemen's war grinds on quote:Child marriage has long been a scourge in Yemen, one of the few countries in the region without a legal minimum age of marriage. In a 2013 survey, nearly 32 per cent of women, aged 20 to 24, said they were married before reaching 18, and more than 9 per cent were married younger than 15. One issue that complicates the matter, and sounds kinda like what you say Plutarch described, is idk what to call it, maybe a custodial marriage? That is if you marry someone that 12 or younger, you still don't have the right to sleep with them. Not until they have come of legal age. That legal age might be something like 13 or whatever. In that way it is almost more equivalent to an engagement. Of course, in many places such customs are practiced there is no authority to actually enforce age of consent laws. In the remote hills of Afghanistan or Yemen there are no police to check up on a child's welfare, or if they do exist they'd probably refuse to do anything about it, seeing the practice as normal. That obviously creates a lot of unfortunate situations like those described in the link.
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Aug 29, 2020 06:30
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There was presumably also a large variety in marriage ages. We have plenty of records of women not marrying until their 20s in societies where marrying before 15 was normal.
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Aug 29, 2020 06:41
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And I think nearly everything we DO know is usually the practices of the upper classes, middle at best, where marriages are often basically a property transaction.
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Aug 29, 2020 07:44
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There's a fair amount known about Roman marriages and sex lives for a variety of classes. In particular, girls came of age and were marriageable at 12 and boys at 14, but typically married in their late teens or early 20s. Elites married younger and the girls were expected to be virgins. There were a wide variety of marriage types and divorce was quite possible for both genders, and daughters could apparently legitimately refuse marriage based on the character of the suitor. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriage_in_ancient_Rome https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexuality_in_ancient_Rome
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Aug 29, 2020 12:14
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https://duckofminerva.com/2020/08/we-all-suffer-if-the-field-is-parochial.htmlon narrow definitions of the origin of universities posted:Example 1: When and Where Did Universities Originate? This article brings up...or well, more like articulates from start to finish requiring no further elaboration from me, something that has really bothered me for a while. I'm not sure I have a further point than going yeah!  but I wanted to see if anyone else has an opinion. So many definitions for these kinds of institutions/terms seem almost purposefully exclusionary, it's peculiar how widespread they still are.
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Aug 29, 2020 15:41
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NikkolasKing posted:I mean, the idea this was an institutionalized practice is supposedly idiotic and ahistorical. It’s not even that far back in the US on my dad’s side my grandmother was married and gave birth to my dad at 14. We are not even 100 years out from that in many places in the US, hell there are places that might not be 50 years away from not uncommon child marriages.
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Aug 29, 2020 16:24
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Wasn't marrying minors (either 14 - 15 years old, I can't remember exactly) made illegal in Florida like within the past decade? I'm not sure why it's crazy that people would have done it thousands of years ago.
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Aug 29, 2020 17:18
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Visited the Greek theater and surrounding attractions in Siracusa today. Holy moly it’s impressive. Coin collectors would love the museum too. It’s got a great collection of intact hordes of coins displayed together.
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Aug 29, 2020 18:07
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Sarrisan posted:Wasn't marrying minors (either 14 - 15 years old, I can't remember exactly) made illegal in Florida like within the past decade? I'm not sure why it's crazy that people would have done it thousands of years ago. Former two time Alabama Supreme Court Justice and former Senatorial candidate for the Republican party Roy Moore was notoriously known for banging teenagers and in his 30s was banned from the local mall due to his constant trolling for young women. His wife was a teenager when they first started dating, iirc. Ted Nugent also married a teenager. In many states it is still very legal.
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Aug 29, 2020 19:19
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Koramei posted:https://duckofminerva.com/2020/08/we-all-suffer-if-the-field-is-parochial.html are you really surprised that anything western is racist?
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Aug 30, 2020 08:07
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Miss Broccoli posted:are you really surprised that anything western is racist? You could really just replace western with anything.
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Aug 30, 2020 08:39
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Mr. Nice! posted:Former two time Alabama Supreme Court Justice and former Senatorial candidate for the Republican party Roy Moore was notoriously known for banging teenagers and in his 30s was banned from the local mall due to his constant trolling for young women. His wife was a teenager when they first started dating, iirc. I mean, 19 year olds are still teenagers.Thats legal pretty much worldwide.
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Aug 30, 2020 12:30
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feedmegin posted:I mean, 19 year olds are still teenagers.Thats legal pretty much worldwide. y r u rules lawyering loving teenagers
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Aug 30, 2020 12:39
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Got a question: Is idealizing/fetishizing ancient Rome some kind of alt-right dog-whistle these days? I am running into people who claim Rome fell because they stopped integrating immigrants/foreigner properly and that it was safer to physically travel from France to Syria during Roman Empire than it was today elsewhere on the net.
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Aug 30, 2020 16:19
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Not necessarily, but there are a bunch of white supremacists who idolize Rome, yeah. It's unfortunate. Also loving stupid since Rome was the most inclusive society of the classical world and derived much of its strength through immigration and integration of all comers, but nobody said white supremacists were smart. There's also a thing where some people who are into the ERE are sometimes really just racist against Turkish people or generally Islamophobic. It sucks, OP.
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Aug 30, 2020 16:23
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