|
I feel like Rome is a ubiquitous enough thing in our culture that whatever number of shitheads there are, there are enough other people who just really loving liked Gladiator and who read about the Colosseum and Caesar in elementary school and so on that it can't really (fingers crossed) get coopted as some alt right thing. It's too mainstream. The ERE on the other hand does give me those vibes sometimes yeah (not anyone in this thread though, I know we have some fans here too).
|
#
?
Aug 30, 2020 17:16
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 25, 2024 20:26 |
|
|
It’s probably also wrapped up in Mussolini who deliberately tied his fascist regime to Roman myth
|
|
#
?
Aug 30, 2020 17:32
|
|
|
My wife has met nuns who refuse to acknowledge the Hagia Sofia as a mosque. Tape over the minarets in pictures of it on their desk level. Because of feminist theology involving Sophiology and questions of God and gender. They can be pretty upset about erasure of a explicit feminine element in the hypostatis.
|
|
#
?
Aug 30, 2020 17:37
|
|
|
Rome actually had a problem with people getting pissed off because they were fully romanized but not officially roman citizens, because they were being integrated TOO well The moral being it is a bad idea to have an underclass of noncitizens Tunicate fucked around with this message at 18:07 on Aug 30, 2020 |
|
#
?
Aug 30, 2020 17:41
|
|
|
Bar Ran Dun posted:My wife has met nuns who refuse to acknowledge the Hagia Sofia as a mosque. Tape over the minarets in pictures of it on their desk level. Because of feminist theology involving Sophiology and questions of God and gender. They can be pretty upset about erasure of a explicit feminine element in the hypostatis. It's only been a mosque again for about a month and a half now, so, they aren't the only ones.
|
|
#
?
Aug 30, 2020 17:53
|
|
|
Koramei posted:I feel like Rome is a ubiquitous enough thing in our culture that whatever number of shitheads there are, there are enough other people who just really loving liked Gladiator and who read about the Colosseum and Caesar in elementary school and so on that it can't really (fingers crossed) get coopted as some alt right thing. It's too mainstream. Yeah the Roman Empire has been the OG cool thing in Western society for at least 1000 years now. So much of our symbology is rooted in it, it's no surprise Roman fanboiism is a spectrum.
|
|
#
?
Aug 30, 2020 18:03
|
|
Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
|
Stefan Molyneux is a big one I can think of who "teaches" the idea of western civilization, Rome being the first example, being threatened by shady foreigners and emasculation of the warrior culture. It's not like norse stuff where the shitheads are in danger of completely ruining it but it's out there. Also moreso than roman, these types loving love spartan poo poo. 300 kind not actual kind. Edgar Allen Ho fucked around with this message at 18:39 on Aug 30, 2020 |
|
#
?
Aug 30, 2020 18:05
|
|
|
Sparta worship is much more of a white supremacist thing, yeah.
|
|
#
?
Aug 30, 2020 18:09
|
|
|
Warden posted:Got a question: Is idealizing/fetishizing ancient Rome some kind of alt-right dog-whistle these days? It probably was safer considering Syria is kind of a warzone at this time, but other than that.. no? As for integration, he might have have been referencing what happened with the German tribe and uhh that's not as simple as he make it seem. Others here can explain a lot better so i'll let them.
|
|
#
?
Aug 30, 2020 18:24
|
|
|
How many languages are still undeciphered?
Lawman 0 fucked around with this message at 18:41 on Aug 30, 2020 |
|
#
?
Aug 30, 2020 18:33
|
|
|
I assume you mean undeciphered?
|
|
#
?
Aug 30, 2020 18:34
|
|
|
The movie 300 caused a bunch of ppl from my generation to love Sparta and the idea of the Spartan warrior, without ever bothering to research about them. I started listening to The History of Ancient Greece by Ryan Stitt, and he goes in details about Spartan society and... yeah. gently caress them. I don't understand how a people could be so unflexible about everything.
|
|
#
?
Aug 30, 2020 18:34
|
|
|
Dalael posted:It probably was safer considering Syria is kind of a warzone at this time, but other than that.. no? Syria was a warzone plenty of the time under the Romans as well. Granted ancient warzones were probably a lot less dangerous to random tourists passing through than modern ones.
|
|
#
?
Aug 30, 2020 18:39
|
|
|
Gaius Marius posted:I assume you mean undeciphered? Whoops! Yeah that's what I meant.
|
|
#
?
Aug 30, 2020 18:40
|
|
|
Sarrisan posted:Wasn't marrying minors (either 14 - 15 years old, I can't remember exactly) made illegal in Florida like within the past decade? I'm not sure why it's crazy that people would have done it thousands of years ago. Still legal in some states. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_marriage_in_the_United_States#Underage_marriage_and_sexual_consent
|
|
#
?
Aug 30, 2020 18:47
|
|
|
Grand Fromage posted:Sparta worship is much more of a white supremacist thing, yeah. Yeah, that one I was aware of. I understand that gun-nuts and militia types really like to throw "Molon labe" around. Which is loving stupid motto to emulate, considering that the Persians proceeded to do exactly that.
|
|
#
?
Aug 30, 2020 18:54
|
|
|
Lawman 0 posted:How many languages are still undeciphered? If we want to be pedantic there's no way to know how many languages they represent, but the wiki list of undeciphered writing systems is pretty good: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Undeciphered_writing_systems
|
|
#
?
Aug 30, 2020 19:03
|
|
|
Dalael posted:I don't understand how a people could be so unflexible about everything. Greek city states were pretty inflexible in general, but if you look at it from Sparta's perspective, you have good reason to stay inflexible, which is that your society is mostly helot who aren't fond of being helots. If you don't have a strict society who's primary focus is on keeping them down, they're going to revolt and you're going to be in trouble.
|
|
#
?
Aug 30, 2020 19:59
|
|
|
Re: the ERE being popular with the far right, it's not just Islamophobia and anti-Turkish prejudice. I mean, it's definitely that, especially in western white supremacists who very visibly just know about it from Paradox games... But in Orthodox-majority countries it's pretty much a direct mirror of western Rome-worship. Most of those countries include some degree of claim to being heirs of Constantinople in their national mythology, if not political then cultural and/or religious. So the ERE ends up shoehorned into the same "our past golden age when everyone knew their place, was super religious, and totally shared all the values of modern right-wing nationalists you guys" bullshit. Of course, if Byzaboos ever picked up an actual history book, they'd realize that the relationship between the ERE and its Muslim neighbors was way more complex. Certainly adversarial, sure, but you necessarily need some nuance to it when you're constantly trading territory back and forth, and interacting with taxpaying subjects, allies, mercenaries, merchants, spies etc. from the other religion.
|
|
#
?
Aug 30, 2020 20:20
|
|
|
To add another to the pile of "fascinating historical societies being co-opted by fascists" alongside the Norse and Byzantines, we also have the Celtic peoples. Especially when it comes to their symbology. It's especially prevalent among the more primitivist wing of modern fascism.
|
|
#
?
Aug 30, 2020 20:31
|
|
|
Warden posted:Got a question: Is idealizing/fetishizing ancient Rome some kind of alt-right dog-whistle these days? If you see someone idolizing Aurelian then you are super safe in punching that fascist
|
|
#
?
Aug 30, 2020 21:18
|
|
|
Miss Broccoli posted:If you see someone idolizing Aurelian then you are super safe in punching that fascist Where's this coming from? Aurelian is easily one of the most interesting emperors. E: Yeah I can't find anything at all connecting right wingers to a specific Aurelian fetish so I'm not sure what you're talking about here. Grand Fromage fucked around with this message at 21:39 on Aug 30, 2020 |
|
#
?
Aug 30, 2020 21:27
|
|
|
Right wing weenies want to be Aurelian and “reunify” their societies by force lol
|
|
#
?
Aug 30, 2020 22:25
|
|
|
skasion posted:Right wing weenies want to be Aurelian and “reunify” their societies by force lol Ok that makes sense now
|
|
#
?
Aug 30, 2020 22:53
|
|
|
Restitutor Orbis == MAGA
|
|
#
?
Aug 30, 2020 22:55
|
|
|
For real though "Restorer of the World" has got to be one of the most badass titles ever bestowed on someone.
|
|
#
?
Aug 30, 2020 23:12
|
|
|
How soon we forget Mr 
|
|
#
?
Aug 30, 2020 23:31
|
|
|
skasion posted:Right wing weenies want to be Aurelian and “reunify” their societies by force lol oh that's dumb Aurelian is one of my favorites. He accomplished more in less time than anyone else. Even Augustus, I think.
|
|
#
?
Aug 30, 2020 23:47
|
|
|
Grand Fromage posted:oh that's dumb Aurelians always who I think of when I see people getting into the inevitable hole. If that dude can put back the entire Roman empire back together by sheer force of will, why do people think that other such crazy and illogical feats seem impossible.
|
|
#
?
Aug 30, 2020 23:55
|
|
|
Warden posted:Got a question: Is idealizing/fetishizing ancient Rome some kind of alt-right dog-whistle these days? it is true that they stopped accepting new foreign groups toward the end of the western empire. like, socially. the late empire was pretty xenophobic toward some groups like the goths in a way that previous generations of romans simply weren't, and they absolutely paid a price for that attitude. not sure it's "the reason the empire fell" or anything, but it couldn't have helped. but this is the opposite of an alt-right argument; intolerance was the problem, not acceptance.
|
|
#
?
Aug 31, 2020 02:01
|
|
|
Grand Fromage posted:oh that's dumb yeah, mike duncan's affection for aurelian rubbed off on me. we'd be talking about rome falling in the third or fourth centuries if it weren't for what he accomplished. i do think he's the wrong guy to be a fan of if you want poo poo to be reunited by force, tho. lotta politics involved in that. guess we should be sorta glad that the arabs hosed up heraclius's poo poo after he took everything back from the persians. saved us from the chuds co-opting another emperor probably
|
|
#
?
Aug 31, 2020 02:14
|
|
|
Jazerus posted:it is true that they stopped accepting new foreign groups toward the end of the western empire. like, socially. the late empire was pretty xenophobic toward some groups like the goths in a way that previous generations of romans simply weren't, and they absolutely paid a price for that attitude. not sure it's "the reason the empire fell" or anything, but it couldn't have helped. Was racism against the goths simply a result of their earlier raids or was it something else that made Roman's mad?
|
|
#
?
Aug 31, 2020 02:27
|
|
|
Lawman 0 posted:Was racism against the goths simply a result of their earlier raids or was it something else that made Roman's mad? The Gothic War absolutely soured Roman attitudes towards Goths, but had been provoked in the first place by Roman state officials maltreating Goths on a large scale. Racism is a difficult word to use of Romans. I’m inclined to think that Roman feelings about Goths were the normal Roman distaste for independent barbarians, greatly intensified by the prolonged contact Rome had with the Goths as an assertive, aggressive, often autonomous faction within imperial politics.
|
|
#
?
Aug 31, 2020 02:33
|
|
|
It's important to remember that racism as we think of it is pretty directly tied into the slave trade.
|
|
#
?
Aug 31, 2020 03:15
|
|
|
The dynamic on the German/Balkan frontier seems to have been Rome and its neighbours carrying out periodic raids against each other for a long time: people died in these raids, which IMO is enough to explain mutual distrust and a widening cycle of violence. If Peter Heather is to be believed, the Romans mostly raided to break up political confederations and assassinate potential unifiers, and the tribes raided back to steal wealth mostly in the form of technologically advanced goods that their societies couldn’t easily produce. Farming tools seem to have been a big part of this, interestingly enough.
|
|
#
?
Aug 31, 2020 03:27
|
|
|
Yeah, on most borders Romans launched raids to take care of potential political threats, their neighbors didn't really have anything they wanted. A little different in the east but they weren't going into say, Scotland for anything other than vengeance for raids or making sure the locals didn't get uppity.
|
|
#
?
Aug 31, 2020 03:31
|
|
|
I wonder if Rome had managed to fall apart for good earlier whether a bunch of Germans could've stepped in to fill the power vacuum that much sooner. Like I'll respect Romans who held the thing together for being good at what they intended to do, but I'm reticent to be thankful for empire surviving for empire's sake.
|
|
#
?
Aug 31, 2020 03:38
|
|
|
Han China operated basically the exact same way towards their neighbors, incidentally. For a very long time the historical orthodoxy was that it was through Chinese influence that states in Manchuria, Korea, Vietnam developed, but it's looking more like the Han Empire's influence actually actively inhibited it; East Asian civilization as something beyond just China is only really a thing after Han collapses.
|
|
#
?
Aug 31, 2020 03:51
|
|
|
LingcodKilla posted:Visited the Greek theater and surrounding attractions in Siracusa today. Holy moly it’s impressive. Coin collectors would love the museum too. It’s got a great collection of intact hordes of coins displayed together. This is a pet peeve of mine; normally I wouldn’t bother posting about it, but bear with me. It's "hoard". As in "hoarding", and derived from a Germanic root. A "horde" is a bunch of horse nomads riding at you and filling you with arrows like a pincushion. And they are specifically Turkic horse nomads because (as I learned just recently, and being my reason for posting) "horde" comes from a Turkic root meaning "army", via Russian, Polish, German and French. Thank you for reading, I just thought this was interesting.
|
|
#
?
Aug 31, 2020 06:24
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 25, 2024 20:26 |
|
|
Uh, it's hardly a hoard of coins if there aren't a horde of coins.
|
|
#
?
Aug 31, 2020 06:52
|
|
