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"hire more women guards" is about the boot of the oppressor on your neck being attached to a different gender and how that's obviously not helping in any way "make space marines that are women" is about people being able to easily create an army that isn't a bunch of men only if they so desire for a tabletop wargame so they can express whatever creativity or identity they desire to with their toys
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Sep 3, 2020 23:12
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Mirthless posted:Sorry for the derail everybody, I shoulda just dropped it. I just wanted to talk about lady space marines. Don't be too hard on yourself. Female space marine discussion always brought out the absolute worst in the hobby. Here's my take on it from a decade ago when Doc Thunder still roamed the lands.   I will be subbing in some Statuesque heads on my new marines when I get around to finishing them. Don't really like the extra-large techno-roider heads so I'm hoping the Heroic Scale Larges will be adequate.
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Sep 3, 2020 23:47
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Wow that looks fuckin' sweet
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Sep 4, 2020 00:00
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tangy yet delightful posted:"hire more women guards" is about the boot of the oppressor on your neck being attached to a different gender and how that's obviously not helping in any way Yeah I'm just saying it in the context of GW still undecided on whether Space Marines are a force of good or oppression.
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Sep 4, 2020 00:05
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I mean if they were going for a Robert Heinlein esque "well take whomever wants to sign up to be a body for fascism" thing id be all for it because itd be making some sort of point. But right now GW seems to be afraid to make Space Marines TOO fashy lest people not get the satire but theyre also not the good guys. Its a weird middle ground that doesnt work. And i know its about options, i don't discount that, I just think theres bigger issues to tackle than giving space marines yet another recast of models and doing so wouldnt actually help any of the serious issues plaguing GWs diversity problem. It wouldnt hurt but it would consume resources and effort, solely to have a company sign off on your creative idea as "canon". RagnarokAngel fucked around with this message at 00:21 on Sep 4, 2020 |
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Sep 4, 2020 00:18
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Eej posted:Yeah I'm just saying it in the context of GW still undecided on whether Space Marines are a force of good or oppression. They're both but when they're putting down ethically justified rebellions the camera looks away.
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Sep 4, 2020 00:19
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I haven't really read the new fluff but I've seen some takes about how Bobby G is essentially usurping the Imperium cause he's the Primarch of Running The Trains on Time by blowing the brains out of any planetary governor or other official he doesn't like and mobilizing the Custodes as a Praetorian Guard. The idea is that he's going to make the Imperium work and that's terrifying. Again, I haven't read any of the stuff so if that take tracks with the text that would be interesting.
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Sep 4, 2020 00:33
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Eej posted:I haven't really read the new fluff but I've seen some takes about how Bobby G is essentially usurping the Imperium cause he's the Primarch of Running The Trains on Time by blowing the brains out of any planetary governor or other official he doesn't like and mobilizing the Custodes as a Praetorian Guard. The idea is that he's going to make the Imperium work and that's terrifying. It's more like he came back to an Imperium that's very different to what he left and while he does do a little bit of purging he essentially recognises the institutions that exist are in control, and there's this uneasy tension where you have a living Son of the Emperor who runs the military saying they will respect the High Lord of Terra and the church, but will he really? Is it just a ploy? Is he putting the Primaris marines in every chapter to have loyalists to him in every chapter? Who knows. We'll find out more when another Primarch comes back, because suddenly Big Blue won't be quite as special anymore.
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Sep 4, 2020 00:35
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I like the idea that the Emperor made the space marines all guys because they're part of his reconquest vanity project and he's a chauvinist nazi, but I don't begrudge anyone their female space marines.
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Sep 4, 2020 00:37
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I still think the sculpts should be super androgynous and it should specifically state men and women can become space marines, after which point they don't have a gender anymore and they are completely asexual. Emphasises the fact they were built only to fight and that while they are the saviours of humanity they are also totally removed from what it's like to be human.
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Sep 4, 2020 00:41
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Dawn of Fire seems to lean towards a satirical imperium, with the Indomitus Crusade draining away the few people willing/able to do anything while the crushing bureaucracy gets worse and worse
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Sep 4, 2020 00:48
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SpaceViking posted:I like the idea that the Emperor made the space marines all guys because they're part of his reconquest vanity project and he's a chauvinist nazi, but I don't begrudge anyone their female space marines. I've just finished Sons of Selenar and one of the characters there outright calls out the space marines as being the overly roided out manchildren of a chauvinistic Emperor.
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Sep 4, 2020 00:51
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Z the IVth posted:I've just finished Sons of Selenar and one of the characters there outright calls out the space marines as being the overly roided out manchildren of a chauvinistic Emperor. Yeah I thought they were/have been pretty ham-fisted with the misogynistic analogies. The sisters of silence as "soulless and practically unseen" almost felt parodic when I first learned of it.
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Sep 4, 2020 01:11
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Stephenls posted:I've said this before: Sisters are great, but the whole point of Space Marines is how varied their themes and aesthetics are between chapters. You've got your Renaissance vampires, Catholic Illuminati, space vikings, infinite palette swapped Roman centurions, crusading knights, cyborgs, birbgoths, atrocity sharks, et cetera. Sisters pretty much just get Catholic Inquisition, and it sucks that if you want boy soldiers you get all that choice but you're poo poo out of luck if you want girl soldiers but don't want Catholic Inquisition girl soldiers. This is literally just lore and head sculpts, though. You know what female soldiers in oversized power armor pumped up on fucky serums look like? Male soldiers in oversized power armor pumped up on fucky serums. Make a Space Wolves army with helmets on and call them women and you're playing with girl soldiers. Part of the issue with "women space marines" isn't just that GW can't figure out how fascistic the Imperium is meant to be, but also that the people having the conversation don't agree on what "women space marines" means in the first place. Some people literally just want a lore sidebar. Other people want half-naked sexy Marine models with big tits. Other people want a series of novels about female Marines and for the two lost primarchs to be found and them both to be women with whatever they think "feminine aesthetics" or values or whatever the hell are for their chapters. Those things are extremely different, require different amounts of time/work accordingly, and are differently good in terms of the social aspect, theme, and tone of the game.
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Sep 4, 2020 01:17
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I feel like I'm walking into a minefield here but my two cents into it all is that I can see when it comes to female marines is that some people are going to balk hard about the fact that Marines are meant to be inhuman as a whole. They are just young teenagers given a ton of steroids and weird hypnotic training. As a result they never really reach mental maturity. That is not to say I'm against the idea but it's going to be a balance act to make it work without possibly fundamentally changing the core of the Marines identity.
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Sep 4, 2020 01:57
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Baku posted:This is literally just lore and head sculpts, though. You know what female soldiers in oversized power armor pumped up on fucky serums look like? Male soldiers in oversized power armor pumped up on fucky serums. Make a Space Wolves army with helmets on and call them women and you're playing with girl soldiers. Literally all I'm asking for is lore and headsculpts. I don't want slimmer Primaris marines with boobplate; I just want one in three (well, one in two would be nice but I know the limits of what might happen) unhelmeted sergeant heads to look feminine enough that people who want female space marines to exist to look at them and go "That unhelmeted Space Marine sergeant is a woman!" (And also, so that if I want to make a more gender equal Space Marine army, I can do it with GW plastic quality sculpts instead of expensive third party stuff from Shapeways that will cause arguments if I ever field them in a game store.) In terms of what I want for the lore, I want Belisarius Cawl to be like "Hey I tweaked the geneseed so you can use it with women now, your recruitment base is now twice as big, you're welcome for my incredible genius!" and then for everyone to sort of roll their eyes a bit about the incredible genius comment because loving Belisarius Cawl, goddamnit, but to be largely non-terrible about recruiting women because it doesn't matter and Space Marines are all functionally eunuchs anyway. Stephenls fucked around with this message at 02:20 on Sep 4, 2020 |
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Sep 4, 2020 02:12
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I'm kind of a habitual project abandoner in that I have been painting minis for three or four months now and I haven't finished a single one Usually I get to the basing/final touch-up and can't be decisive enough to call it done so it gets shelved and I start painting something else; That's been fine since my collection of minis was basically a runewars box set and some reaper bones, but since I got a bunch of warhammer poo poo and it's expensive, and since I actually did so loving well on this one, I finished it, for the first time, I actually got one done  It's not perfect but I'm god drat happy with it
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Sep 4, 2020 02:14
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Kitchner posted:I still think the sculpts should be super androgynous and it should specifically state men and women can become space marines, after which point they don't have a gender anymore and they are completely asexual. Emphasises the fact they were built only to fight and that while they are the saviours of humanity they are also totally removed from what it's like to be human. The correct answer.
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Sep 4, 2020 02:17
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E. Nesbit posted:The correct answer. It's actually the incorrect answer, because as much as, in a vacuum, functionally androgynous Space Marines are fine, out here in the real world where folks are advocating for tools of self-expression like miniatures to more fully reflect the whole human experience, theoretically perfect answers don't address the problem of slightly more than half the population not being able to see themselves in GW's most popular IP segment. I've been having these arguments since Dark Heresy came out and people were like "This sucks that I can't play a female space marine" and other people were like "Just play a Battle Sister" and the first people were like "Yes, play the character type with the strictly inferior stats so that I can be a woman, that's exactly the solution I was looking for, thank you." (Arguing that instead of putting in women space marines they should make space marines perfectly androgynous is of the same argument type as arguing for abolishing of legally recognized marriage instead of legalizing gay marriage, although obviously of orders of magnitude less import because one of them is a civil rights issue and the other is toys.) Stephenls fucked around with this message at 02:27 on Sep 4, 2020 |
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Sep 4, 2020 02:23
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Stephenls posted:It's actually the incorrect answer, because as much as, in a vacuum, functionally androgynous Space Marines are fine, out here in the real world where folks are advocating for tools of self-expression like miniatures to more fully reflect the whole human experience, theoretically perfect answers don't address the problem of slightly more than half the population not being able to see themselves in GW's most popular IP segment. No, you see, it's the correct answer because it's the one I like.
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Sep 4, 2020 02:38
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Buy some Samus figures from somewhere and kitbash to your hearts content https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Samus#8th_Edition Nissin Cup Nudist fucked around with this message at 03:07 on Sep 4, 2020 |
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Sep 4, 2020 03:04
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Nissin Cup Nudist posted:Buy some Samus figures from somewhere and kitbash to your hearts content No, I'll keep yelling about how GW needs to make female space marines canon instead.
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Sep 4, 2020 03:05
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Meanwhile I'm here wondering if Alpharius and Omegon were on the same page of the 'play traitor so ultimately chaos is destroyed' plan or if they wouldn't have been able to help themselves and had to super ultimate betrayal their twin.
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Sep 4, 2020 05:34
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Stephenls posted:No, I'll keep yelling about how GW needs to make female space marines canon instead. Why is it so important to you that a corporation sign off on it? If its real to you thats what matters. No corporate authority is going to make it more valid and people against the idea wont just suddenly bow to it any more than they do now.
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Sep 4, 2020 05:41
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RagnarokAngel posted:Why is it so important to you that a corporation sign off on it? If its real to you thats what matters. No corporate authority is going to make it more valid and people against the idea wont just suddenly bow to it any more than they do now. I think your insistence on GW's performative behavior having no value reveals some significant worldview incompatibilities between the two of us. Like, Disney is a giant media parasite that's slowly growing itself into a monopoly over all children's entertainment, and that's terrible, but the Black Panther and Captain Marvel films still have value inasmuch as they mean things to people, and a hypothetical well-made Disney Kamala Khan Miss Marvel movie would also have value. And GW is significantly less evil than Disney. (I will admit that I am mostly influenced by the entirely selfish desire to have female Space Marine sergeant/lieutenant/captain head sculpts made to be compatible with the Space Marine range by people experienced in creating for that range, manufactured with high quality plastic compatible with plastic cement, though. I actively dislike working with third party Shapeways resin or boutique metal sculpts, because their materials are a pain in the rear end and their dimensions and visual language are always subtly wrong.) Stephenls fucked around with this message at 06:02 on Sep 4, 2020 |
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Sep 4, 2020 05:53
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Its less that representation having value (I dont think it does, but I acknowledge that's me) but the willingness to overlook serious institutional flaws in a company to get their approval.
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Sep 4, 2020 06:21
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RagnarokAngel posted:Its less that representation having value (I dont think it does, but I acknowledge that's me) but the willingness to overlook serious institutional flaws in a company to get their approval. I always assume any significantly large company may have serious institutional flaws, and whether we know about them has no correlation to how bad they are and usually comes down mostly to chance. Somewhere in the building, someone with decision-making power is a lovely person making lovely decisions, and if they're inward-facing we don't find out; doesn't mean they're not there. The idea that we can be ethical by only engaging in capitalistic exchange with companies whose shittiness hasn't come out in public yet is nonsensical to me. Consider, for example, how AK Interactive would have seemed like a good and ethical company to engage with no more than two days ago, going by the idea that we should avoid companies with visible institutional flaws. Stephenls fucked around with this message at 06:36 on Sep 4, 2020 |
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Sep 4, 2020 06:32
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RagnarokAngel posted:Its less that representation having value (I dont think it does, but I acknowledge that's me) but the willingness to overlook serious institutional flaws in a company to get their approval. What does this even mean? What are you talking about? What approval? From whom, for whom, to what end? I dont think anybody's angling for a signed 9x10 by saying they think good things can happen and your degree of cynicism is incredibly draining and i am literally forums poster Mirthless
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Sep 4, 2020 06:35
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Also, I don't give a gently caress about "corporate approval." I give a gently caress about the difference between a hypothetical world where e.g. Aaron Demski-Bowden is writing books with female space marine characters, and young men who mostly read 40k fiction are therefore being exposed to stories with female characters they will develop empathy for, and how that might influence their empathy for real women... vs. the real world where he isn't allowed to write those books because canonically there are no female space marines. And you can't tell me that repeated exposure to fictional female protagonists has no influence on young men's empathy for real women. It absolutely does. I am sure I have read summaries of studies arguing the inverse, where there's a link between "Women developing more empathy for men than men do for women" and "Women watching/reading a lot of media with male protagonists because there's a shortage of media with women protagonists."
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Sep 4, 2020 06:43
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Making female marines canon is bred out of the belief that a corporation holds the keys to what is true in a fictional source. Its not enough to have fans make kick rear end models and their own custom chapters, somehow GW needs to rubber stamp it for it to "count". The obvious argument is that a companys approval makes it official and wide reaching but Im not confident it would suddenly make all the misogynists in the hobby pack up and go away. They are in fact quite good at rejecting GWs edicts, even when its as benign as "I dont like how primaris look". My issue is just this simping need to get female space marines approved from a company who employs misogynists and racists at its highest ranks and continues to avoid having actual female authors and POC involved in the creative process. I dont think their approval should be sought nor desired. Stephenls posted:And you can't tell me that repeated exposure to fictional female protagonists has no influence on young men's empathy for real women. I can and will. As a woman I live that experience every goddamn day and I dont think its actually done any good. I am sick and tired of tokenism propped up so companies can avoid actual change and I can be told "why are you upset? We put a lady on the cover and she's powerful. You should love this." RagnarokAngel fucked around with this message at 06:56 on Sep 4, 2020 |
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Sep 4, 2020 06:46
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Maybe i just want to see salty chuds cry while also getting cool models out of it.
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Sep 4, 2020 06:53
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RagnarokAngel posted:Making female marines canon is bred out of the belief that a corporation holds the keys to what is true in a fictional source. Its not enough to have fans make kick rear end models and their own custom chapters, somehow GW needs to rubber stamp it for it to "count". like and retweet my posts everybody jesus christ if liking female characters in fiction is simping that word has officially lost all meaning and to be honest your position makes you sound like an unhinged misogynist
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Sep 4, 2020 07:05
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RagnarokAngel posted:Making female marines canon is bred out of the belief that a corporation holds the keys to what is true in a fictional source. Its not enough to have fans make kick rear end models and their own custom chapters, somehow GW needs to rubber stamp it for it to "count". To the extent that it influences what people are allowed to play with in GW spaces, which are for many people the primary play spaces they have access to, a corporation does hold the keys to what is true in a fictional source. This is bad, but also true, and will not stop being true any time soon. (I mean, COVID-19, the uncertainty of a viable vaccine ever existing, and the possible collapse of shared play spaces as a meaningful concept for the next decade notwithstanding.) RagnarokAngel posted:The obvious argument is that a companys approval makes it official and wide reaching but Im not confident it would suddenly make all the misogynists in the hobby pack up and go away. They are in fact quite good at rejecting GWs edicts, even when its as benign as "I dont like how primaris look". It absolutely will not make them pack it up and I never claimed it would. I think there's value in marginal and incremental change. There would be more value in drastic change, if only it were more plausible to successfully enact. RagnarokAngel posted:My issue is just this simping need to get female space marines approved from a company who employs misogynists and racists at its highest ranks and continues to avoid having actual female authors and POC involved in the creative process. I want GW to stop doing all that too, but we were talking about female space marines, because people posted pictures of their female space marines, and the conversation turned to how much easier and more fun it'd be to make those if GW put out female space marine heads. Your position seems to be that I shouldn't be saying I want GW to make female Space Marines canon, and should instead by advocating for something like a a boycott until they fully oust Tony Cottrell and meaningfully diversify their writer and designer pool. I can respect that position. I'm not going to do that, because over time I've learned to hate almost all of my hobbies and switching to artistically expressing myself through the creation of game pieces (which have a concrete purpose unlike e.g. a drawing) is the only way I've found to overcome my own crippling creator's block, but it is a position I can understand. RagnarokAngel posted:I can and will. As a woman I live that experience every goddamn day and I dont think its actually done any good. I am sick and tired of tokenism propped up so companies can avoid actual change and I can be told "why are you upset? We put a lady on the cover and she's powerful. You should love this." Yeah I'm not having any luck finding a source for that link claim. I'll post one later if I do. Also, "Strong female characters" are largely poo poo. I didn't mean that. I meant, ideally, real equality of representation, with equal amounts of fictional men and women (and non-binary people), not the classic five-man-band trope where there's four guys with different personalities and then one girl whose personality is "Not like other girls." Stephenls fucked around with this message at 07:23 on Sep 4, 2020 |
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Sep 4, 2020 07:19
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Make Female Orks
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Sep 4, 2020 08:07
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I think that there's a fairly significant value to GW's decision on the subject not because of any inherent weight that a company's word has, but because there's a very large difference between "you can make this happen with a lot of effort on your own that will never be acknowledged at any level" and "there it is, right on the box".
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Sep 4, 2020 08:39
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Mirthless posted:like and retweet my posts everybody The words existed longer than youtubers, grow up. Im not talking about wanting a twitch streamer to notice you I'm talking about begging for corporate approval. The issue isnt liking female characters, you didn't read what i said at all. Its needing a company to give you approval when they themselves can't be assed to hire actual minority authors. Im not really comfortable with introducing more minority characters written by cishet white guys. If you want my overall thesis statement, that's it. I think championing for more diversity in 40k (in universe) while keeping the current corporate culture status quo is actively harmful. I dont think making the change now without also demanding more diverse writing staff does any good at all. I do believe everyone here wants both things, to be clear, but acceptance of one without the other is actively harmful to those groups and not a "first step" toward something better. RagnarokAngel fucked around with this message at 11:47 on Sep 4, 2020 |
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Sep 4, 2020 11:10
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Eej posted:Make Female Orks My warboss wears prada heels.
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Sep 4, 2020 12:30
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Do you not think though that if the media they produce (and products) appear more diverse and seem more appealing to more than just straight white dudes, that they will have a bigger pool of hobbyists to hire staff and writers from? "X minority just aren't applying" is obviously a bad argument, but I imagine the number of genuinely good applicants for any such role is always dwarfed by the number of bad applicants, and the percentage of applicants is probably at the moment extremely white male dominated. I can't speak about others countries, but in the UK 6 years ago I never once saw a female GW store staff member, and I don't think I knew anyone who actually did the hobby properly and was female, they always sort of did it because their boyfriend did. A friend of mine told me she sort of got into the painting side and the gaming side but was ultimately put off by a sexist male staff member when she went into a store on her own for the first time. Years later she was seeking a hobby and got back into painting etc, she would play but she has no one to play with (and since covid couldn't anyway). Before covid hit though she went into a store for the first time since that experience and had a positive visit. My girlfriend never considered the hobby at all but was aware it's very male dominated, but started painting her own stuff after watching me paint. She enjoys the gaming side I think but she's not that confident in general, so she shys away from it. For the first time last week she went into the GW store by her work to buy herself a painting handle so she can stop borrowing mine. There were two women and one man working in the store, and she had a fun conversation with the woman who served her. Now obviously these are both anecdotal, but I think the point I'm trying to make is that, no, things still need improving with diversity in the hobby, however I think it's not right to say things aren't gradually getting better. The question is could they be getting better faster, and the answer is "yes". Kitchner fucked around with this message at 12:43 on Sep 4, 2020 |
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Sep 4, 2020 12:40
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I dont think media representation helps that if its not backed by genuine diverse view points first. Its a non issue regardless, GW might not be able to have an all or majority POC staff but to my knowledge zero of their regular authors are not British cishet males. They can get at least one and are actively choosing not to. I dont want or need to receive approval from people who actively have zero interest in actually lifting up minority voices. Youre just giving them a pass because "change is hard" and i dont think employing women as store clerks is 21st century thinking. Theyd rather prop up a fictional minority character as a tool to convince people theyve changed. A woman or POC written by a cishet white guy is a prop. You mentioned Disney but Black Panther wasnt lauded for having a black guy on the cover, it was because they employed a majority black cast to write and act in it. Sure it was still backed by white guys, like GW would be if they got more diverse authors, but at least those voices would get a platform. And if loving Disney can do it GW can hire one minority author or at least more than a loving store clerk. RagnarokAngel fucked around with this message at 12:58 on Sep 4, 2020 |
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Sep 4, 2020 12:50
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RagnarokAngel posted:I dont think media representation helps that if its not backed by genuine diverse view points first. Its a non issue regardless, GW might not be able to have an all or majority POC staff but to my knowledge zero of their regular authors are not British cishet males. They can get at least one and are actively choosing not to. I dont want or need to receive approval from people who actively have zero interest in actually lifting up minority voices. Youre just giving them a pass because "change is hard" and i dont think employing women as store clerks is 21st century thinking.
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Sep 4, 2020 13:02
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