|
Rhyno posted:That was the same run that put Arsenal on the team instead of Green Arrow and then pushed him into an infatuation with Hawkgirl that also never went anywhere. Which reminds me of Snyder's pushing Manhunter and Hawkgirl together that technically, I guess, did go somewhere (their kid from the future shows up) you could not tell it from the way they interact with each other. Man, I get wanting to see Hawkgirl play off other people than Carter, but writer her so she's actually interested in them.
|
#
?
Sep 5, 2020 19:36
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 25, 2024 21:39 |
|
|
Skwirl posted:Okay, that's not even close to true. Yeah that was rude, sorry—obviously even in the days of, like, Hostess Fruit Pies talented artists and writers were working hard to bring these stories out, and being all dismissive of the past is super reductive and stuff. I just don't personally vibe with saying "x character can't be compelling", cause a good team and an investment of heart can make anything shine—and a lot of characters who were jokes in the past are much stronger for it now.
|
|
#
?
Sep 5, 2020 19:44
|
|
|
McCloud posted:https://twitter.com/ray8fisher/status/1301949796081696769?s=19 WB issued a statement depicting Miller as a diva who refused to cooperate with the investigation: quote:In July, Ray Fisher’s representatives asked DC Films President Walter Hamada to talk to Mr. Fisher about his concerns during the production of “Justice League.” The two had previously spoken when Mr. Hamada asked him to reprise his role as Cyborg in Warner Bros.’ upcoming Flash movie, together with other members of the Justice League. In their July conversation, Mr. Fisher recounted disagreements he’d had with the film’s creative team regarding his portrayal of Cyborg, and complained that his suggested script revisions were not adopted. Mr. Hamada explained that creative differences are a normal part of the production process, and that a film’s writer/director ultimately has to be in charge of these matters. Notably, Mr. Hamada also told Mr. Fisher that he would elevate his concerns to WarnerMedia so they could conduct an investigation. At no time did Mr. Hamada ever “throw anyone under the bus,” as Mr. Fisher has falsely claimed, or render any judgments about the “Justice League” production, in which Mr. Hamada had no involvement, since filming occurred before Mr. Hamada was elevated to his current position. To which Fisher responded: https://twitter.com/ray8fisher/status/1302304939591507970
|
|
#
?
Sep 5, 2020 19:52
|
|
|
sliami posted:I just don't personally vibe with saying "x character can't be compelling", cause a good team and an investment of heart can make anything shine—and a lot of characters who were jokes in the past are much stronger for it now. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0iLMbo8Kg8k&t=78s Kite Man, Hell Yeah.
|
|
#
?
Sep 5, 2020 19:58
|
|
|
Rhyno posted:That was the same run that put Arsenal on the team instead of Green Arrow and then pushed him into an infatuation with Hawkgirl that also never went anywhere. I thought it was fine. I was a big fan of the stuff with Dinah and Roy. But, as I’ve said before, I’d buy a book of Meltzer just having heroes sitting around and talking. I know they’ve walked back a lot of the New 52 stuff, but I miss that DC era where everyone seemed like they were friends.
|
|
#
?
Sep 5, 2020 20:05
|
|
|
My only issue with cyborg being pushed as hard as he was for a few years there is it seems like editorial mandate more than writers actually having ideas for him. As was stated, even Johns never used him for more than anything but being a sentient teleportation device. Compare that to Doom Patrol who clearly wanted to use him and have great ideas for what to do with him.
|
|
#
?
Sep 5, 2020 20:51
|
|
|
Jedit posted:Yes, he told me this straight up. And while I know he's been pushing the book since launch, he didn't need to foist it on me because I already have it on my pull list. That's unusual. We were ordering 6 copies of it at this point, also about what we sell of The Terrifics, which is pretty niche. It maybe could have done better, but having it under the Sandman Universe banner turned some people off. I liked the series for what it's worth. For context, we sell about 35 copies of new Batman issues right now. The new Constantine black label mini looks promising though!
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2020 00:59
|
|
|
Somberbrero posted:That's unusual. We were ordering 6 copies of it at this point, also about what we sell of The Terrifics, which is pretty niche. It maybe could have done better, but having it under the Sandman Universe banner turned some people off. I liked the series for what it's worth. For context, we sell about 35 copies of new Batman issues right now. Why did the Sandman Universe label turn people off? Did they think they'd have to get the rest of the Sandman books too or something to follow it?
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2020 01:08
|
|
|
sliami posted:cyborg's a black superhero with themes of disability, dehumanization and reducing black men to their physical prowess. i feel like this argument would hold more water if John Stewart as Green Lantern wasn't right there. he was even in a just-as-beloved cartoon (a Justice League one, no less) around the exact same time. if it was just representation concerns, they'd be using him and pushing GL. they're not using him, and avoiding GL, because Geoff Johns is a huge weirdo who has more or less declared Hal Jordan to be the only valid iteration of the character, despite nobody other than him liking Hal (everyone's favorite GL is either John or Guy Gardner). e: like, the Kamala analogy doesn't really work, because nobody's griping about Cyborg being redundant because of his powers or whatever (and if they are, they're missing the point). they're griping because DC previously had a very well-liked black superhero as a member of the Justice League, who got basically thrown under the bus by editor fiat because he wasn't Johns' childhood Green Lantern, and DC is responding to the representation issue that resulted from this by going "HERE'S CYBORG, YOU LIKE CYBORG RIGHT, DOESN'T THIS MAKE YOU WANNA FORGET JOHN STEWART?" Marvel isn't using Kamala to fill a representation gap caused by loving over a well-liked POC character, so it's not the same situation WeedlordGoku69 fucked around with this message at 01:57 on Sep 6, 2020 |
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2020 01:52
|
|
|
WeedlordGoku69 posted:i feel like this argument would hold more water if John Stewart as Green Lantern wasn't right there. he was even in a just-as-beloved cartoon (a Justice League one, no less) around the exact same time. Lots of people like Kyle Rayner too.
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2020 01:57
|
|
|
I think you are simultaneously overestimating how many people liked John Stewart in JL/JLU and underestimating how many people like Cyborg in Teen Titans and how many people like Hal Jordan as Green Lantern.
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2020 02:01
|
|
|
WeedlordGoku69 posted:i feel like this argument would hold more water if John Stewart as Green Lantern wasn't right there. he was even in a just-as-beloved cartoon (a Justice League one, no less) around the exact same time. Mm. I didn't have that context, and I totally get this. It's such transparent bullshit too—like, "you can have a black superhero on the leading team! just one though. black lives matter ♥️" I brought up the Kamala thing, because I'm admittedly like hyperdefensive about bad faith concern trolling about the few and fair mainliners of color in comics. But from what you're saying it looks like the Cy situation is a microcosm of all the absolute fuckery that goes into how characters and people are treated, while companies pretend they care. Pushing one black character to the side so a white writer can have his perfect toybox? Mistreating the actor portraying that character? The ugliness of it all. The painting of Fisher as a histrionic diva don't sit right with my spirit, what Geoff Johns is doing don't sit right with my spirit, and I want nothing more than a comics sphere freed of that childishness.
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2020 02:12
|
|
|
most of the griping about Cyborg I see from people who aren't blatantly loving terrible is, very specifically, "what the gently caress, where's John Stewart?" and it's practically a meme that Johns is the world's only Hal Jordan fan. e: yep, nailed it in one, pretty much
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2020 02:12
|
|
|
Blockhouse posted:I think you are simultaneously overestimating how many people liked John Stewart in JL/JLU and underestimating how many people like Cyborg in Teen Titans and how many people like Hal Jordan as Green Lantern. I watched JL/JLU as a kid and honestly? John Stewart's my boy—of course I am Team Everybody Black and LGBT.
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2020 02:14
|
|
|
The problem with Cyborg in Justice League is that it totally does away with Cyborg in Teen Titans. Hi fans of Cyborg because of Teen Titans, here is Cyborg but he was never in Titans. I've said it before Cyborg in Justice League makes sense if he "graduated" from Titans to Justice League and would be a great character moment too, but instead Johns did away with all the character growth and such to make Cyborg a new character.
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2020 02:15
|
|
|
WeedlordGoku69 posted:most of the griping about Cyborg I see from people who aren't blatantly loving terrible is, very specifically, "what the gently caress, where's John Stewart?" and it's practically a meme that Johns is the world's only Hal Jordan fan. A meme isn't a reflection of reality. If people didn't like Hal Jordan that book probably wouldn't have been DC's best selling title for years. Also not gonna lie a lot of my beef here is that I don't like how Comic John Stewart was completely rewritten from anti-authority rebel who was willing to call people out to being more like the DCAU's boring-rear end army guy who shoots things with lasers concept.
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2020 02:20
|
|
|
Madkal posted:The problem with Cyborg in Justice League is that it totally does away with Cyborg in Teen Titans. Hi fans of Cyborg because of Teen Titans, here is Cyborg but he was never in Titans. I've said it before Cyborg in Justice League makes sense if he "graduated" from Titans to Justice League and would be a great character moment too, but instead Johns did away with all the character growth and such to make Cyborg a new character. THAT part. Like I hate that. What is with writers trying to coast off what TT04 did for the Titans who seem to resent that show's tone, humor and character work? There's lots a talented writer can pull from! Ignoring it and turning the characters into these dour knockoffs of better dramatic media ran through a filter of cape schlock just makes me wanna put the book down—cause I'm like, okay, I know Cy (or Starfire, or Raven, or BB) and this is not Cy. Like have faith in that fun, hopeful world and have faith in your ability to still make that compelling! Sucking all the air out of it doesn't do you or your readers any favors.
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2020 02:23
|
|
|
Blockhouse posted:A meme isn't a reflection of reality. If people didn't like Hal Jordan that book probably wouldn't have been DC's best selling title for years. the arc of cape comic writing bends towards copaganda
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2020 02:27
|
|
|
Blockhouse posted:A meme isn't a reflection of reality. If people didn't like Hal Jordan that book probably wouldn't have been DC's best selling title for years. I would like to see evidence that Green Lantern outsold Batman for years.
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2020 02:34
|
|
|
Skwirl posted:I would like to see evidence that Green Lantern outsold Batman for years. Starting in October 2004, Green Lantern Rebirth was a huge seller and sold more copies than "Batman" but was being outsold by Superman/Batman. Green Lantern #1 was the best-selling comic of May 2005, so obviously it outsold everything. The first twelve issues of the 2005 Green Lantern relaunch outsold the "Batman" monthly comic, though it routinely was beaten by Superman/Batman or All-Star Batman (none of these books could keep on schedule, GL included) Batman started outselling Green Lantern when Grant Morrison came on with Batman #655 in July 2006. This continued until September 2007, when the Sinestro Corps War led Gl #23-26 to outsell Batman. Batman pulled back ahead until July 2009, when Blackest Night launched. The "Blackest Night" event mini-series outsold the top Batman books, though the Morrison/Quitely/etc. Batman and Robin ongoing series outsold the core "Green Lantern" series for the first half of the event's run. The biweekly "Brightest Day" event comic outsold all Batman comics for most of 2010, though the Green Lantern title generally did not. In the spring of 2011, the "War of the Green Lanterns" mini-event boosted sales so that Green Lantern was the best-selling DC book for five months. From that point forward, in the early days of the New 52 Green Lantern was one of DC's best-selling titles, but it was always outsold by Batman, Justice League, and occasionally Detective and Action. That lasted about until Johns left the book in 2013, and it fell fairly quickly after that. By May 2014, the core Green Lantern book was behind Batman, Batman Eternal, Justice League, Harley Quinn, Batman/Superman, Detective Comics, Justice League of America, Superman/Wonder Woman, and Nightwing. By May 2016, it was outsold by Batman, Justice League, Batman/TMNT, Superman, Detective, Harley Quinn, Action, Harley Quinn & Her Gang of Harleys, Flash, and Batman/Superman By May 2018, the Green Lantern books were pretty much in the bottom half of books being published by DC. There's no question that Geoff Johns's run on Green Lantern was a big hit and when it was in Big Event mode it outsold Batman and everything else at DC. There's also no question that none of the spin-offs they attempted were particularly successful, and in the seven years since Johns left the property it's been drifting consistently downwards. There's a solid argument that while Johns loved Hal Jordan, the book only really hit huge numbers after the initial "Hal is Back!" shine wore off when he was doing Big Epic Events featuring a dozen different types of rings and the Anti-Monitor and Superboy Prime and Zombies and Even More New Kinds of Rings and Batman and Green Arrow and Wonder Woman and etc.
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2020 05:43
|
|
|
I think Hal is fine when knowingly written as a dumb meathead. John Stewart, at least the one popularized by the DCAU is a very boring character that devolved to being all about his relationship with two much more interesting characters. Cyborg is good, and could work very well as the fresh rookie that sets aside his own doubts and fears to stand alongside the greats. Geoff Johns was just never interested in writing anything interesting with him.
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2020 15:13
|
|
|
Skwirl posted:Why did the Sandman Universe label turn people off? Did they think they'd have to get the rest of the Sandman books too or something to follow it? That may well be it. When you call something a universe in comics that implies crossover.
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2020 15:26
|
|
|
I always felt Hal worked best in the GL cartoon, although admittedly he was pretty much just Captain Kirk.
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2020 16:10
|
|
|
Hal Jordan, as in the dude who once slipped in a bathtub and knocked himself out, is a fine character. He is flawed in understandable ways. Hal Jordan the perfect best Green Lantern who everyone worships and totally beats up Batman and who is so flawless he isn't even allowed to have greying hair loving sucks. Johns just made the latter.
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2020 17:22
|
|
|
Carol Danvers and Hal Jordan should start a club, honestly, and that club can be called "Our Companies/Writers Wanted To Push All Our Flaws Under The Rug Because We're Popular Now" Because DC thinks nobody wants to buy comics about flawed and troubled people, unless it's also a murder-mystery, apparently, and Marvel wanted a Wonder Woman that wasn't the X-Men.
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2020 18:25
|
|
|
KaosMachina posted:Carol Danvers and Hal Jordan should start a club, honestly, and that club can be called "Our Companies/Writers Wanted To Push All Our Flaws Under The Rug Because We're Popular Now" Carol Danvers' flaws are completely insane though and I don't blame Marvel to push it under a rug.
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2020 18:30
|
|
|
Alhazred posted:Carol Danvers' flaws are completely insane though and I don't blame Marvel to push it under a rug. It sure is a thing when Chris Claremont thinks "someone needs to fix the hosed up psychosexual drama of this character."
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2020 19:22
|
|
|
KaosMachina posted:Carol Danvers and Hal Jordan should start a club, honestly, and that club can be called "Our Companies/Writers Wanted To Push All Our Flaws Under The Rug Because We're Popular Now" Car-Ell. Jesus Christ, how loving naked in your ambissions do you have to be?! 
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2020 19:49
|
|
|
If we're talking Cyborg, the big issue with the movies is that they took a guy known for being a goof ball in the media he was most popular in, and tried to make him dour AF. So people who come to see cyborg from TT and the comics are disappointed because "That's not my cyborg," and people who go to see the movie who like the Justice League from the comics are disappointed because "Why is Cyborg here, where's Martian Manhunter and Green Lantern?" That's all before the utter garbage of the story kicks in too. The sad thing is, If DC wanted a black tech Guy to drop in they could have used the new Mr. Terrific.
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2020 20:54
|
|
|
If there was ever another Marvel/DC crossover, Hal/Carol team up is near the top of my list. Couple hot shot pilots turned space police turned super heroes, with their abrasive personalities working against how much they have in common. I bet Captain Marvel could even absorb lantern energy. Speaking of her energy powers: Why didn’t Rogue get those?
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2020 21:05
|
|
|
Open Marriage Night posted:If there was ever another Marvel/DC crossover, Hal/Carol team up is near the top of my list. Couple hot shot pilots turned space police turned super heroes, with their abrasive personalities working against how much they have in common. I bet Captain Marvel could even absorb lantern energy. She didn't have them at the time. She got her Binary powers after the Rogue thing happened.
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2020 21:09
|
|
|
I just assumed she had energy powers as Ms Marvel.
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2020 21:31
|
|
|
Follow up from Ray https://www.instagram.com/tv/CEzfKhdpZDh/?igshid=1lomw91zjpgu7
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2020 21:39
|
|
|
McCloud posted:Follow up from Ray I hadn't heard any specifics about what had actually happened, but gently caress, he says Johns gloated about a different actor playing Cyborg in Doom Patrol.
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2020 22:10
|
|
|
I get the sense there's a lot of poo poo that went down and he's just been biding his time to nail them to the wall with it. The best part is, he's not scared about not having a hollywood career. There's nothing they can threaten him with.
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2020 22:20
|
|
|
McCloud posted:I get the sense there's a lot of poo poo that went down and he's just been biding his time to nail them to the wall with it. Yeah there's obviously more than just that, it's just such a shockingly petty thing to do. Also, arguments about relative quality aside, way more people have probably seen Justice League than Doom patrol.
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2020 22:32
|
|
|
Open Marriage Night posted:I just assumed she had energy powers as Ms Marvel. Her original gimmick was that she became part-kree via techy bullshit, then it happened again and the technological bits of her powers became part of her innate structure after another thing, then the Rogue thing happened, then the Brood gave her different superpowers, and from that point she's had various combinations of the powers depending on writer and point in history. So she has had those powers as Ms. Marvel but that is because she was Ms. Marvel for a long time.
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2020 22:52
|
|
|
Alhazred posted:Carol Danvers' flaws are completely insane though and I don't blame Marvel to push it under a rug. Somebody is going to have the bright idea to take Avengers #200 and Mark Millar it and I really, really dread that day.
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2020 23:01
|
|
|
Dawgstar posted:Somebody is going to have the bright idea to take Avengers #200 and Mark Millar it and I really, really dread that day. Ehh, if anything, Carol having a bomb in her womb would have improved that story.
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2020 23:03
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 25, 2024 21:39 |
|
|
Yond Cassius posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0iLMbo8Kg8k&t=78s I am willing to forgive all Tom King's faults for one Kite Man.
|
|
#
?
Sep 8, 2020 23:46
|
|
