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Doesn't Genealogy have some kind of weird pre-rolled RNG instead of a proper one so you can technically control your level ups by following a specific set of actions? I'm sure someone with too much time on their hands has figured out the correct sequence of actions to always get full level ups.
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Sep 8, 2020 23:37
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Zore posted:The last game that didn't have any sort of rigged levels was Path of Radiance iirc though I can't remember the system 11 and 12 used. I’m like 98% sure that Awakening and Fates have no special growth modifiers or other protections from empty levels. Fates rolls for all of unit’s levels when they join on Lunatic mode, and I think that’s it
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Sep 8, 2020 23:48
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Yeah this is the first I've heard of anything but high average growths as a buffer against null levels in fateswakening. Can't speak for Echoes but also nobody really talks about the guts of echoes, so. e: also I'm 99% certain that Shadow Dragon at least didn't have a safety buffer.
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Sep 9, 2020 00:35
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It’s pretty obvious that Echoes levels are rigged because the growths are so much lower than awakening/fates but you’ll always get at least +1 to HP.
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Sep 9, 2020 01:33
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galagazombie posted:Doesn't Genealogy have some kind of weird pre-rolled RNG instead of a proper one so you can technically control your level ups by following a specific set of actions? I'm sure someone with too much time on their hands has figured out the correct sequence of actions to always get full level ups. Not only that but you can follow the exact same set of actions and get the same result everytime. If you followed a streamer / lets player's course of actions, exactly, you'd get the same outcome as them. HIts, level ups, misses and all.
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Sep 10, 2020 02:31
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Zore posted:The last game that didn't have any sort of rigged levels was Path of Radiance iirc though I can't remember the system 11 and 12 used. Ahahaha let me tell you about dynamic growths. Actually don't, I barely remember any of the details, but basically every time a stat doesn't go up in the ds games, the growth increases by some tiny insignificant amount. This went unnoticed for literal years until people reported anecdotal evidence of stat ups that should have been literally impossible. Also I think the system interacts with growth changes due to reclassing in an unintuitive way, adding to the confusion.
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Sep 10, 2020 02:48
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I just finished my last route, Silver Snow. Wow, that was a bizarre twist in the last chapter. That's the last time I ever help Rhea with anything ever again. I still think Crimson Flower is the best route.
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Sep 12, 2020 18:00
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Silver Snow's endgame with Rhea being one load-bearing secret away from going senile and turning herself and all the church's top officials into mindless murderous dragon monsters and Verdant Wind's endgame with the mole people having Zombie Fantasy Christopher Columbus on ice just in case they need to go full scorched earth are two incredible revelations that make me wonder how they would impact the aftermath of the other routes. Is Rhea a ticking time bomb after Azure Moon? Do the Agarthans thaw Nemesis out when the Black Eagles Strike Force attacks Shambhala after Crimson Flowers?
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Sep 12, 2020 18:32
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Crimson Flower sucks the most out of all the routes. Its shorter than the rest, has Conquest tier writing around the moral greyness and the fact you have to work with the real baddies with none of the satisfaction of actually finishing them off on screen and is basically shoehorned in if anything. The most cohesive experience writing/plot wise is Azure Moon.
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Sep 12, 2020 18:54
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What? The real baddies are Rhea and Dimitri who you defeat. The Slitherers are boring and suck rear end and there's no emotional payoff to beating them, it's just some plot checklist that would suck. Not fighting them was absolutely the best decision and while I wish CF had more meat on it's bones I'd rather it go towards the two antagonists who do matter. Also I really don't see any Conquest tier dumbness in CF either. It's the morally best route. https://twitter.com/kyuko82go/status/1291739285419261953 
Eimi fucked around with this message at 19:04 on Sep 12, 2020 |
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Sep 12, 2020 19:00
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All I know is Edalgard is the only good route but that’s because man the other house leaders loving suck And Rhea is the most obvious bad guy in any video game Girl needs some subtlety drat
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Sep 12, 2020 19:02
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Like just going off the credit theme, which is Edge of Dawn in every route except CF, which is Color of Sunrise. Not exactly subtle. 
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Sep 12, 2020 19:06
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I very much enjoyed Verdant Wind for Claude's stategic plotting, and mystery-diving. He's determined to learn the truth behind Fodlan's history, and in the end his is the route where you learn more than any other about the real origin of so much of Fodlan's troubles. Also, y'know, the only route where the track goes from Dubstep straight to opera.
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Sep 12, 2020 19:12
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It’s funny in that Claude just kind of feels there Like the game was Demtri Vs Edelgard but you need a faux merchant republic so there he is
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Sep 12, 2020 19:15
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Rhea is a sympathetic traumatized genocide survivor who is only responsible for Fodlan's social ills in as much as she was merciful to the people who loving genocided her family, and working with the Agarthans is collaborating with them not dealing with them on screen is just an argument against their merits to the plot anyway yet they're still there. You can't have it both ways where not dealing with them is good because they suck as villians but they're still in as villians and plot relevant to the route., as well as all others. Its a major Chekhov's Gun issue. Crimson Flower suffers because it was shoehorned in as a 'side with the intended antagonist' route at the end of development.
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Sep 12, 2020 19:19
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I'm in the middle of my second VW playthrough after finishing my second CF playthrough. And, I have to say, VW is my favorite route. It gives you the most lore and gives you the most content to build a team. I initially liked CF best, but after thinking about it, a lot of the cracks in how it plays out become pretty obvious. The fact that Byleth and Edelgard never have it out (or even discuss) her alliance with the Slitherins and how they loving murder Jeralt always bugged me. Plus, the conclusion doesn't really put the world on a path to peace. Fodlan is still run by a ruling class. Sure, there's theoretically more upward mobility for talented individuals with the smashing of the crest system, but the nobility is still a Thing. And they still run everything. And they're not going to give that up freely. And they're still working with a massive advantage on manipulating whatever system Edel comes up with. Really, if you think about it, Edelgard doesn't really change anything. She just removes crests as a discriminating factor. Outside of that, all she did was replace the Church with herself as the continent's controlling force. And as awesome as a character as she is, I don't see her being charismatic enough to get these disparate regions, separated by 400 years of history, to suddenly come together after being forcefully invaded. The spark of war is still there. Especially in the Alliance, the only reason they gave up so readily was due to Claude's intervention, and he beats feet right after he's defeated (assuming you don't just merc him). So, there's nominally no one there to keep the former Alliance territories from rising back up. There are a few other things, but I'm too distracted right now to write them all out clearly. Maybe later.
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Sep 12, 2020 19:22
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But Dimintri isn’t in that route.
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Sep 12, 2020 19:22
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I've mixed feelings about VW cos I love the lore exposition and the End Boss / Conclusion feels the most satisfying, but it also suffers from feeling too copied from Silver Snow's progression but without enough additional Alliance specific content stuff to differentiate it. Though Claude helps carry it a lot, and I remain partial to it as my over all favorite route. There's a ton of fleshing out that could improve pretty much every route but to me only Azure Moon and Silver Snow feel like they need it the least, and that's probably because they're the two routes based the most off the original content planned/developed for the game.
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Sep 12, 2020 19:29
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I never played Silver Snow but of the remaining three Verdant Wind is my least favorite. While Claude does get more plot reveals, there's zero connection between his house and the plot. You could completely remove the Golden Deer from the story and nothing would change.
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Sep 12, 2020 19:37
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With regards to Rhea's backstory, in game we literally only have her version of it. It's not the truth, it's Rhea's version. Did Rhea's people suffer a genocide? Yes. But they inflicted one upon the Agarthans first. The game hints that the initial conflict was started because they did not want to follow the rule of the colonizer space dragons. Because let's not forget, Sothis isn't from Fodlan. She isn't the creator of Fodlan, she came to Fodlan. And then you get into Nemesis and his whole deal. That he's still called the King of Liberation, even in Church literature is a huge plot point. Nemesis must've been so popular, and so beloved by the humans she came to rule, she couldn't' just turn him into a pure villain. He's a fallen hero in her history. As for Edelgard and the Slitherer's, she's not working with them as much as she was meant to be a tool in their plan and she's working from the inside to coopt it and defeat them and implement her plans. The Slitherer's think they are in control of her, it's not an alliance, she's meant to be their lackey.
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Sep 12, 2020 19:37
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Rimusutera posted:Crimson Flower sucks the most out of all the routes. Its shorter than the rest, has Conquest tier writing
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Sep 12, 2020 19:46
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There's other ingame stuff that corroborates Rhea's side of things. Sothis essentially helped them build their civilization through sharing knowledge with them and had her hand forced when they refused to essentially stop being warmongering poo poo heels and actually started the war first because they were such massive paranoid poo poo heels. Rhea only canonized the whole King of Liberation poo poo because she had to hide the truth of where the Crests came from, killing her family and bathing in their blood and forging weapons from their bones and poo poo, and so concocted the 'gifts from the goddess' and subsequent downfall stuff, again in part of making peace with the Elites and their descendents.
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Sep 12, 2020 19:48
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One thing most people miss about Crimson Flowers (and the whole game, really) was that the mole people were going to have their war no matter what and at the very least Edelgard could jump out in front of it and turn their plan over to furthering her cause. It's also subtle and easy to miss, but the Emperor is basically a powerless figurehead after the Insurrection of the Seven with most of his authority getting transferred to the lord regent Arundel (a mole person) and prime minister (who was in league with Arundel, seeing as he was completely aware of all the hosed up things that were going on under the palace). So the only way that Edelgard can do things like just putting the prime minister under house arrest literally immediately after her coronation is if the mole people are allowing her to. Which just makes it suck all the more that you don't get to stick it to them in CF. Although there is a fine in-universe justification for her having to continue to rely on them post-war to keep her empire together before she can leech enough power off of them to crush them for good.
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Sep 12, 2020 19:49
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My whole mentality regarding Sothis and her origins is at what point do they stop being a "foreign" force and just become a part of Fodlan? I mean, a thousand years is a long time, and they were present long enough before that to meaningfully mix with the local populace before the whole conflict with the Agarthans kicked off, right? There really isn't enough known, even with the supplementary material that I've seen, to make any sort of value judgement on who the bad guys were.
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Sep 12, 2020 19:49
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Trying to project a modern understanding of human history vis a vis colonialism onto the Sothis & Agarthan relationship is also a bit silly if I'm gonna be blunt, because that stuffs based on resource extraction and exploitation not giving actual utopia and then telling people to cut it out when they keep warring each other, and then getting nukes thrown at you for all your trouble. Its more like a certain other historical parallel if I'm being honest. Edit: also, people don't so much miss that stuff about Crimson Flower so much as its poorly justified and explained in the writing. Rimusutera fucked around with this message at 19:57 on Sep 12, 2020 |
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Sep 12, 2020 19:53
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The Argarthans are easily the worst written villains in the franchise, up to and including the villains in Fates. You actually fight the villain in Fates.
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Sep 12, 2020 19:55
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I mean in that sense so is trying to comparing Edelgards revolution versus a people’s revolution. While hers resembles the middle class revolutions of 18th and 19th century
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Sep 12, 2020 19:56
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Airspace posted:The Argarthans are easily the worst written villains in the franchise, up to and including the villains in Fates. You only fight Xander on one route though? 
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Sep 12, 2020 19:57
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Zore posted:You only kill Xander on one route though? You can kill Xander in all three routes if you're creative.
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Sep 12, 2020 19:58
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Favourite Xander factoid is his Japanese version name was Marx.
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Sep 12, 2020 20:00
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Rimusutera posted:There's other ingame stuff that corroborates Rhea's side of things. Sothis essentially helped them build their civilization through sharing knowledge with them and had her hand forced when they refused to essentially stop being warmongering poo poo heels and actually started the war first because they were such massive paranoid poo poo heels. The interview (which is the only "objective" truth about Fodlan- the in-game views are either fragmented, intentionally incorrect or hopelessly biased) tells us that Rhea "forgot" to mention that the Nabateans had installed themselves as rulers over humanity, which is a pretty key factor in why things played out the way they did. "In that world, originally the race that could change into dragons, the so called citizens of Nabatea, were scattered about Fodlan in the different places/lands as governers (rulers)" The same WoG interview also has it that many humans really did like Nemesis for freeing them of their Nabatean rulers, leading to them (being fooled into) joining Nemesis' side and that's the reason why Rhea couldn't just blacken Nemesis' name forever. Instead she had to go "Nemesis fought against evil gods (Nabateans), and then turned conquesty and evil and had to be put down", because people at the time really did see him attacking the Nabateans as a good thing because humans didn't like being ruled over by the Nabateans. "From the human perspective/side, Nemesis and the Ten Elites were heroes. As a result, ruling above humans, she would be unable to completely fabricate points that would deny every aspect of their history, eh. As a result, she left them as heroes while changing other parts in order to suit her own needs." It 100% wasn't just to hide the crest stuff, it was because people (who didn't know what a murderous shitbag who was just cloaking his evil in nice rhetoric) really did think Nemesis was a good person (up until his "liberation" rhetoric ran out because no more obvious Nabateans, and he kept conquering and killing). From the opposing human PoV he "went evil and had to be stopped", when it was really just "he was always evil, but now it's obvious". Shinji117 fucked around with this message at 21:06 on Sep 12, 2020 |
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Sep 12, 2020 21:02
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The interview fits in largely with a lot of in-game textual reference though. The thing with the humans supporting the Ten Elites fits in fine with everything, and Serios had human supporters as well which is what I alluded to earlier; she made peace with the former in the end and needed a way to hide from anyone possible inspired by the Crests real origins. I don't think the interview info contradicts anything beyond overreading the simplification of there being a simple 'human side' that thought of the Nabateans as bad. The key thing is the Ten Elites descendants were still around, forming the feudal nobility of Fodlan, but so were Serios' loyalists Rimusutera fucked around with this message at 22:36 on Sep 12, 2020 |
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Sep 12, 2020 22:14
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Rimusutera posted:The interview fits in largely with a lot of in-game textual reference though. The thing with the humans supporting the Ten Elites fits in fine with everything, and Serios had human supporters as well which is what I alluded to earlier; she made peace with the former in the end and needed a way to hide from anyone possible inspired by the Crests real origins. She killed all Ten Elites and Nemesis. The Elites' families got to survive, which is how things got passed down, but they all got the Sword of Seiros special.
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Sep 13, 2020 01:25
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I think I like Crimson Flower best just because I was sold on the church being evil and controlling Fodlan for their own purposes pretty much from my first playthrough. Edelgard may not exactly be a people's hero, but she is the only one who actually attempts to overthrow the system in place in Fodlan in some meaningful way. That was my biggest disappointment with Verdant Wind. Claude is probably my favorite house leader, but the story he is in makes it feel like he's a sidekick. This was my first route, and when I first played the game, I expected Clause to overthrow the church as part of his mission to bring change to Fodlan. Instead, he just works with (for?) them and then opens up the borders in a post-game, text-only insert. I think he had the most potential as an interesting character, but his route honestly would be the same if he weren't even there. His personal motivations don't drive the story like they do in Edelgard's route or Dimitri's route.
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Sep 13, 2020 01:50
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The thing about Claude is that from a skillset perspective, he works best when he's working behind the scenes, working from the shadows. He's a strategist and schemer, so in a war scenario, he needs to be able to duck out of the spotlight from time to time to set his plans in motion, which is harder to do when the focus is primarily on him. Also, his ambitions and personal motivations go beyond the scope of Fodlan, which is kind of too big to tackle in this particular game, since the plot is about Edelgard and her war. His goals in this conflict aren't unique to himself; they fall in line with basically everybody that's not Empire: I don't want to die, I don't want Edelgard to conquer everything, so she needs to be stopped. Plus, he also wants to find Rhea because he wants to get some friggin' answers out of her about these mysteries that have been driving him up the wall! His Almyran past doesn't provide much influence in his stance on the war beyond him being newer to Fodlan's mythology and history and thus more eager to uncover the truth about it, as he hasn't been raised from childhood to just accept it. Also, his "open Fodlan to the world and talk to the CEO of Racism" goals aren't ones that can be directly accomplished during the war; those are post-war ambitions. So yeah, with the character they presented, there's not much of a way to get a story out of it that's overly distinct from the Church Route, because he naturally settles into a supporting position to Byleth, who serves as the big Figurehead and Commander, being the one Rhea leaves in charge of the Church's operations, and the one person Claude trusts to really lead the battle. From there, he can work behind the scenes, research the history and mythology that he's determined to explain, and work on strategies and plots to overcome obstacles and adversaries. While Claude is absolutely a capable leader, his skillset means he serves well in a supporting role - and if you're playing his route, there's someone more suited than Claude to be playing the proper Leadership role in Byleth, who has the more direct motivation to lead the opposition to the Empire, and is better suited to being at the head of the army. Even Claude's choice of weapon and his advanced class denotes his preferred role - wielding a bow so that he can offer support from behind the front line rather than being front and center like Edelgard or Dimitri, and being a high-movement flying unit to allow him to respond to threats quickly and maneuver around the map quickly and strategically. I have no idea what parts of that still deserve a spoilertag at this point, so I'll just say screw it and spoiler the whole thing.
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Sep 13, 2020 05:52
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I'd like to submit for consideration by the thread that spoiler tags aren't necessary anymore. The game's been out for over a year. 
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Sep 13, 2020 06:29
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I presume a lot of people haven't done all the routes or dlc though.
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Sep 13, 2020 07:05
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BlazetheInferno posted:The thing about Claude is that from a skillset perspective, he works best when he's working behind the scenes, working from the shadows. He's a strategist and schemer, so in a war scenario, he needs to be able to duck out of the spotlight from time to time to set his plans in motion, which is harder to do when the focus is primarily on him.
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Sep 13, 2020 07:25
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AlternateNu posted:I'd like to submit for consideration by the thread that spoiler tags aren't necessary anymore. The game's been out for over a year. black bars make threads slightly inconvenient to read but it's not too big of a price to pay for the consideration, is it?
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Sep 13, 2020 07:45
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Zane posted:idk about any of this but i respect your overenthusiastic claude stance for its novelty if nothing else Eh, once in a while some argument or point in my head I wanna make just *clicks* and then a wall of text like that happens. The TL;DR is "Claude as not the main driving force of his route works because of who and what his character is."
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Sep 13, 2020 07:55
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