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Is there ever any explanation as to why in Adventure the protagonist 'mons just digivolve back and forth for fights, but a "natural" digimon lifecycle doesn't?
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Sep 7, 2020 01:08
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jivjov posted:Is there ever any explanation as to why in Adventure the protagonist 'mons just digivolve back and forth for fights, but a "natural" digimon lifecycle doesn't? Evolution is a Digimon’s natural growth cycle. Partners are basically doing it through an external source. Otherwise it’d take years and years for characters to reach those forms. This is directly stated in Xros Wars, where some Devidramon show disbelief at the idea of Shoutmon evolving spontaneously. But also it’s a conceit to keep the cute and marketable forms around.
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Sep 7, 2020 01:16
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jivjov posted:Is there ever any explanation as to why in Adventure the protagonist 'mons just digivolve back and forth for fights, but a "natural" digimon lifecycle doesn't? We never see that happen in Adventure, but we do see it at least twice in Tamers with both Guardromon and Antylamon
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Sep 7, 2020 01:22
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The way I figure it, there are three ways a Digimon can develop. Natural age, which is permanent, and brings you from Baby to Child to Adult, then eventually back to the egg to start again. Absorbing the power of another, whether a willing gift like the Devas to Impmon or, more likely, from killing and absorbing another Digimon's data. Finally, the burst of energy from Digivolution, a temporary shortcut to the process.
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Sep 7, 2020 01:26
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It should be noted that in Japan when anime style evolution debuted, it was controversial among the Japanese fandom. People expected permanent evolution like the kind that occurred in V-pets and video games initially.
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Sep 7, 2020 01:26
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I imagine there's two big reasons they switched to temporary evolution; 1) it's easier on the animation budget, and 2) helps differentiate Digimon from Pokemon more
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Sep 7, 2020 01:33
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drrockso20 posted:I forget if it was here or in the SRW thread but a while ago we talked about how to best use Digimon in one of those games, and this was basically my thoughts on the matter; Tamers as the series, only the D-Reaper arc is covered, only the five Ultimate stage Digimon(Dukemon, SaintGalgomon, Sakuyamon, Justimon, and Beelzebumon) are playable(with Guardromon, MarineAngemon, Antylamon, and Grani showing up in attacks rather than being full units) You could definitely do Tamers that way. It might be fun to see it alongside the main series debut of stuff like Zegapain and Gundam Build Divers. And Dukemon+Grani would definitely be a mid-game upgrade alternate frame/armored carrier/additional pilot for Dukemon and Crimson Mode would just be for an attack. I also maintain you could do a decent SRW entry using Xros Wars mostly because the progression of forms matches established SRW units. You could do decently well using Shoutmon X4 and Metal Greymon as the baseline units with Shoutmon's various forms being attacks, later upgrading to Omega Shoutmon as an alternate frame while DeckerGreymon, SiegGreymon, and Shoutmon DX appear for attacks, and then getting X7 as a final combined unit. Beelzebumon and Mervamon could probably be playable units, and Tuwarmon as well as a secret. I'd definitely try and sneak in Shoutmon EX6 as a secret final attack for X4, but that's just me. jivjov posted:Is there ever any explanation as to why in Adventure the protagonist 'mons just digivolve back and forth for fights, but a "natural" digimon lifecycle doesn't? Not really. The framing of the series suggests that (some?) humans can make digimon evolve much faster than normal at the cost of that evolution being temporary, but that's never explicitly said out loud nor are the mechanics of it a thing the series felt the need to spell out. It just is how things go so the series can function. More than that devolving is one of those things that seem done in part for the convenience of the writers so they don't have to deal with the mechanics of having a bunch of full-size Adult+ digimon around all the time. The franchise kind of suggests that a digimon becoming a partner alters its lifecycle and how it evolves, but again it's not one of those things said out loud. You can reasonably infer that Tailmon in Adventure and Guardromon and Marine Angemon in Tamers stay at those forms because they evolved that way on their own before meeting partners, but again never made explicit and probably doesn't need to be. It just is. If it ain't broke as they say.
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Sep 7, 2020 01:37
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The Digimon might also hold back on evolving naturally as the kids get older partly because Greymon would have a lot harder a time hanging out with Tai than Agumon. Or existing in human society. What I'm saying is we need Diplomat WarGreymon
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Sep 7, 2020 01:41
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On the size point, kinda reminds me of how one of the very early manga had Digimon not really change much in size at all from evolution and not be very big in the first place(like the main character had a DarkTyranomon/MetalTyranomon for a partner that was basically human sized)
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Sep 7, 2020 01:43
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drrockso20 posted:I forget if it was here or in the SRW thread but a while ago we talked about how to best use Digimon in one of those games, and this was basically my thoughts on the matter; Tamers as the series, only the D-Reaper arc is covered, only the five Ultimate stage Digimon(Dukemon, SaintGalgomon, Sakuyamon, Justimon, and Beelzebumon) are playable(with Guardromon, MarineAngemon, Antylamon, and Grani showing up in attacks rather than being full units) I've given my own idea on it as well but I think Xros Wars is the best choice, since Xros Wars is effectively a mecha series in the first place. I even made a roadmap of how you'd get units. You start with Shoutmon X4 (main pilot: Shoutmon, subpilots: Ballistamon, Dorulumon, Starmon). Shoutmon X4 has his anime attacks + a "Xros Open" attack to show the individual Digimon attacking. He gets a X4Knight attack down the road, and then gets three different frames: X4B (adds subpilot: Beelzebumon), X5 (adds subpilot: Sparrowmon) and X5B (adds both subpilots), obviously one at a time as the game goes on. MetalGreymon joins later (main pilot: Greymon, subpilot: MailBirdramon) with his own anime attacks, a Xros Open attack and a Cyber Launcher attack. He then gets the DeckerGreymon frame (adds subpilot: Deckerdramon). When you hit the midpoint of Xros Wars' story, both get the "Super Evolution" command, upon hitting a certain amount of Morale (probably 130 or so), both can Super Evolve into OmegaShoutmon and ZekeGreymon, respectively. While they lose their subpilots, they become significantly more powerful to make up for it. Shortly later, they get the "Combine" command, allowing them to become Shoutmon DX (main pilot: OmegaShoutmon, subpilot: ZekeGreymon). Before you get DX though, you get the third Xros Wars character: Mervamon, with her JetMervamon frame (adds subpilot: Sparrowmon, cannot be used alongside X5/X5B). By the end of the story, you get Shoutmon X7 as a permanent upgrade. You lose Shoutmon X4 and MetalGreymon as individual units, as well as the JetMervamon frame, in favour of a much stronger unit (main pilot: OmegaShoutmon, subpilots: Ballistamon, Dorulumon, Starmon, Sparrowmon, ZekeGreymon). During the very last stage, X7 gets the "Superior Mode" attack, finishing the Xros Wars upgrades and story. drrockso20 posted:We never see that happen in Adventure, but we do see it at least twice in Tamers with both Guardromon and Antylamon We saw it in Adventure with Tailmon, she naturally reached her Adult stage through living a hard life, and keeps it as her default while the rest have their Child forms instead. Nodosaur posted:It should be noted that in Japan when anime style evolution debuted, it was controversial among the Japanese fandom. People expected permanent evolution like the kind that occurred in V-pets and video games initially. I'm unsurprised but it ended up being the best move they could do. Beyond being more marketable, having to plan scenes where you have eight kids and then a bunch of giant monsters would be rather complicated to say the least. EDIT: my post went on for so long that other people posted similar things! Oh well! drrockso20 posted:On the size point, kinda reminds me of how one of the very early manga had Digimon not really change much in size at all from evolution and not be very big in the first place(like the main character had a DarkTyranomon/MetalTyranomon for a partner that was basically human sized) I have no idea what manga you're talking about here.
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Sep 7, 2020 01:43
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Blaze Dragon posted:I've given my own idea on it as well but I think Xros Wars is the best choice, since Xros Wars is effectively a mecha series in the first place. I even made a roadmap of how you'd get units. If one were to do Xros Wars, the Manga would probably be the better version to adapt Also what I was talking about regarding evolution was the times we see a Digimon that's not a Partner(at least at the time) devolve
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Sep 7, 2020 01:48
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The Bee posted:The way I figure it, there are three ways a Digimon can develop. That and some “wild” Digimon have been shown to regress when badly injured. It’s just that only those running on human-partner energy are able to break the rules and jump all over the evolutionary ladder. Including slide forms which only a handful of extremely rare and powerful Digimon can do without a partner or other external power source.
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Sep 7, 2020 02:18
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drrockso20 posted:If one were to do Xros Wars, the Manga would probably be the better version to adapt Oh, my bad. We see it again in Tamers with Beelzebumon to Impmon (before he joins Ai and Makoto), and it's shown quite a few times in Frontier (the one that comes to mind is a Chamelemon returning to Armadimon and a Woodmon returning to a bunch of Mushmon that formed it earlier), but there were other examples, I just don't want to think about Frontier). It's definitely unusual though. Blaze Dragon fucked around with this message at 02:34 on Sep 7, 2020 |
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Sep 7, 2020 02:23
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I figure its similar to how getting your rear end kicked badly regressed you down to an egg. Just for the times when it isn't so severe that you literally die. I also feel like it'd be cool to have permanent Champion level as an eventual upgrade to show how far a character comes, but I also agree that for anime and scene framing purposes it really wouldn't work too great.
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Sep 7, 2020 02:46
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Blaze Dragon posted:Oh, my bad. We see it again in Tamers with Beelzebumon to Impmon (before he joins Ai and Makoto), and it's shown quite a few times in Frontier (the one that comes to mind is a Chamelemon returning to Armadimon and a Woodmon returning to a bunch of Mushmon that formed it earlier), but there were other examples, I just don't want to think about Frontier). It's definitely unusual though. And Antiramon was explicitly demoted by Zhuqiaomon which is why he became a Lopmon. It's also possible that that was the first time he was ever a Lopmon as well as Zhuqiaomon is described as making the Devas ex nihilo, possibly at their Perfect forms immediately. That may be why Lopmon can evolve to Antiramon with Siuchon's help without having to go to an intervening form. It's also stated that for the main run of Tamers up until episode 40 that evolution in the digital world was impossible due to the Entelecheia not being present, Impmon gaining the ability to evolve was literally divine intervention. Geostomp posted:Including slide forms which only a handful of extremely rare and powerful Digimon can do without a partner or other external power source. Speaking of which I've had a pet theory for a little while that Vamdemon in 99 was always an Ultimate digimon that preferred to take on his Perfect form simply for the ease of having a smaller humanoid form. This might explain why he's ridiculously stronger than any other digimon seem to that point, and why Pico Devimon seems to know in advance that he'd come back after his death. I have no real hard proof, but it's one of those little head canon things you pick up.
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Sep 7, 2020 03:11
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Omnicrom posted:Speaking of which I've had a pet theory for a little while that Vamdemon in 99 was always an Ultimate digimon that preferred to take on his Perfect form simply for the ease of having a smaller humanoid form. This might explain why he's ridiculously stronger than any other digimon seem to that point, and why Pico Devimon seems to know in advance that he'd come back after his death. I have no real hard proof, but it's one of those little head canon things you pick up. It's possible. That scenario happens quite a bit in V-Tamer. Zero could evolve into AeroV-dramon before he actually did, but willingly stopped the evolution because he was scared of what he would become and how it could affect his bond with Taichi. Lord HolyAngemon could evolve into Seraphimon even at the beginning of the story, but kept his true power sealed away so as to not scare the younger, weaker Digimon under him. While he loses that form and regresses to HolyAngemon after facing Arkadimon, he still had the power to become an Ultimate, and later uses it to become Dominimon. At the same time, Leo evolves into Regulumon, which, considering how he does it (completely at will), likely means he had the potential to do it but didn't for some reason (unlike the others, there's no explanation for it, and it'd be against Leo's character not to bring forth his full power).
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Sep 7, 2020 03:21
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for the record, when Lord HolyAngemon becomes Dominimon instead of Seraphimon, it's explicitly because his "win percentage" decreased, as a nod to a particular type of card from the game at the time. He basically ranked down.
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Sep 7, 2020 04:17
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Nodosaur posted:for the record, when Lord HolyAngemon becomes Dominimon instead of Seraphimon, it's explicitly because his "win percentage" decreased, as a nod to a particular type of card from the game at the time. He basically ranked down. And more relevantly to the V-Pets which V-Tamer pulls from and which the cards themselves are references to. Your win percentage in V-Pets then (and I believe now) was a major determining factor on how high a level your digimon could evolve to. It was pretty much a guarantee you'd get to Adult level, but above that along with certain care guidelines you needed a certain battle win percentage just to have a chance to evolve to Perfect and Ultimate, with the choicest evolutions only being available at the highest win rates. This is why Win Percentage cards only start being needed when evolving above Adult in the old card game, and why you needed higher Win Percentage cards with steeper costs for stronger digimon. That was also where the early puppet digimon came from, Monzaemon, Etemon, ExTyranomon and their like were powerful but difficult to get because they could only evolve from the weak "failed" Adult evolutions like Numeon, Sukamon, Raremon, and etc. so not only did you need a good win percentage you had to get it with a digimon that was weak.
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Sep 7, 2020 05:15
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Also I adore that we're already settling into the power scale roughly established with season 1- Were Garurumon is probably the weakest Ultimate, Garudamon and MegaKabuterimon are much stronger, Metal Greymon is a solid average and we'll see what absurd stuff they do with Zudomon
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Sep 7, 2020 05:18
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The Bee posted:I figure its similar to how getting your rear end kicked badly regressed you down to an egg. Just for the times when it isn't so severe that you literally die. The closest they came to having some kind of evolution growth in Adventure was when the partner Digimon would stop regressing to their Baby forms after going Perfect/Ultimate. Though I remember thinking it was odd that Wargreymon went back to Agumon after losing to Puppetmon, but back to Koromon after beating Machinedramon.
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Sep 7, 2020 12:32
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That's because Puppetmon's a chump.
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Sep 7, 2020 17:52
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Burkion posted:Also I adore that we're already settling into the power scale roughly established with season 1- Were Garurumon is probably the weakest Ultimate, Garudamon and MegaKabuterimon are much stronger, Metal Greymon is a solid average and we'll see what absurd stuff they do with Zudomon To be fair, Zudomon was all about his indestructible hammer. He was strong and all, more than making up for his unimpressive streak in Rookie and Champion form, but he always handily lost against a higher level opponent without significant backup. He did put a crack into MetalEtemon that did lead to his death, but SaberLeomon had to finish the job. MegaKabuterimon was mostly about physical strength and a very tough shell. His fight with Vademon did have him blow up a miniature planet, but I’m not sure how to rank that since it was some weird illusion space. We do know he could just ignore LadyDevimon trying to impale him, so he’s drat tough. Weregarurumon did throw down with Myotismon for a bit (it’d be a crime to not have the werewolf fight the vampire at least once), but Myotismon wasn’t taking that fight seriously before Angemon showed up and he crushed them both. He does seem more designed for martial arts skill than raw power, so I’ll give you that. Omnicrom posted:And Antiramon was explicitly demoted by Zhuqiaomon which is why he became a Lopmon. It's also possible that that was the first time he was ever a Lopmon as well as Zhuqiaomon is described as making the Devas ex nihilo, possibly at their Perfect forms immediately. That may be why Lopmon can evolve to Antiramon with Siuchon's help without having to go to an intervening form. It's also stated that for the main run of Tamers up until episode 40 that evolution in the digital world was impossible due to the Entelecheia not being present, Impmon gaining the ability to evolve was literally divine intervention. I dunno, he did eat a lot of his lackeys to take his next form and we know that even dying after that didn’t fully kill him. I chalk up his near immortality to the vague “power of darkness” that he and Devimon had that was never explained.
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Sep 7, 2020 18:43
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We have the titles for episodes 16 to 18 of Adventure:, as well as the names of two new Digimon to be introduced in them! Episodes: 16: "The Jet-Black Shadow Corroding Tokyo" (東京侵食 漆黒の影) 17: "The Showdown in Tokyo, Orochimon" (東京決戦 オロチモン) 18: "The Countdown to Tokyo's Annihilation" (東京消滅 カウントダウン) Digimon: Eyesmon (アイズモン) - Appears in ep. 16 Nidhoggmon (ニーズヘッグモン) - Ultimate, appears in ep. 18 Seems we're going into the Real World once all six Perfects appear. If so, it may be a spike of quality for the series, the original Adventure got good at that time too. Maybe we can start focusing on character development and slow down a bit. New Digimon appearing is also interesting, so far, the only new Digimon we got were in the first arc (Algomon Baby to Adult).
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Sep 9, 2020 18:23
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I'm not certain we're going there yet but Goddamn this sounds interesting However this works out, getting new Digimon is a treat
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Sep 9, 2020 18:56
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That could be a mis-reading of Wisemon
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Sep 9, 2020 22:02
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Scratchman Apoo posted:That could be a mis-reading of Wisemon How?
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Sep 9, 2020 22:35
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I'm honestly really happy with the core kids getting to Perfect and then leveling off because it makes them getting to Ultimate/Mega a more fitting end point of character actualization/development instead of Hitting their big character moment and then....having a while new tier and arc to get through. Assuming we plateau out at perfect for awhile that is
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Sep 9, 2020 22:36
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Scratchman Apoo posted:That could be a mis-reading of Wisemon It's not. The kana is different, ワイズモン (Wisemon) vs アイズモン (Eyesmon).
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Sep 9, 2020 22:37
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Scratchman Apoo posted:That could be a mis-reading of Wisemon It definitely says アイズモン 
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Sep 9, 2020 22:39
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Sorry about that, I didn't look very close at the screenshot.
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Sep 10, 2020 01:50
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betcha Nidhoggmon is an evolution of Orochimon.
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Sep 10, 2020 02:18
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Blaze Dragon posted:It's not. The kana is different, ワイズモン (Wisemon) vs アイズモン (Eyesmon). Moreover, the main central unifying theme of whatever the antagonist force is has so far been eyeball monsters. Algomon, Noise Batmon and the weird eye-covered egg it spawned from, and the flashback with Deathmon as front and center bad guy.
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Sep 10, 2020 02:29
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Nodosaur posted:betcha Nidhoggmon is an evolution of Orochimon. Well, we do have the summaries of the episodes, and you're absolutely right! Ep 16, Invasion of Tokyo- The Jet-Black Shadow Taichi Yagami, Koushiro Izumi, and Mimi Tachikawa pass through a cave tunnel in order to reach the spot where they will be rejoining with Yamato's group. Once they step out of it, however, they see the familiar Tokyo scenery before them. They wonder if they have returned to their world. Unable to understand what happened, they each head back to their homes, but even though the place does not appear any different from the Tokyo that they know, something is off. Unable to reach their homes, they remain discomforted and confused when a Digimon with lots of eyes called 'Eyesmon' appears. Ep 17, Last Battle in Tokyo- Orochimon Just when they thought they'd beaten the powerful Tuskmon, the even larger eight-headed Orochimon appears before Taichi and co. Orochimon's power is overwhelming, and they cannot stand against it even working together. They end up running away, scattering in different directions. Meanwhile, in the real Shibuya, Orochimon's presence is causing several malfunctions. If they don't do something, Taichi's sister Hikari and Yamato's brother Takeru, along with several other Tokyo citizens, will be in danger. ALthough Taichi and Yamato are separated from their friends, they gather up their courage to take down Orochimon in a reckless strategy. Ep 18, Countdown to Tokyo's Annihilation Although they manage to defeat Orochimon, a mysterious countdown suddenly begins right after. This phenomenon occurs in the real world's Tokyo as well, with the digital devices that people are carrying malfunctioning. Taichi and co are on alert when Orochimon's evolved Ultimate form "Nidhoggmon" appears. Nidhoggmon's moves correlate with the countdown- when it reaches zero, it has the ability to destroy Tokyo. Taichi and co are unable to stand a chance against this powerful Ultimate... Just then, a strange reaction occurs within the bodies of Hikari and Takeru back in the real world.
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Sep 10, 2020 02:50
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Please tell me we're not getting Omnimon again.
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Sep 10, 2020 02:56
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The Bee posted:Please tell me we're not getting Omnimon again. I would take that over War Greymon and Metal Garurumon this soon
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Sep 10, 2020 02:57
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The show's been quite good, all of the Perfect reveals have been well done, but it hasn't really wowed me in a while. Not like it did at the start. Hopefully, this will shake things up and it'll start playing on our expectations again.
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Sep 10, 2020 06:09
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I'm hoping for the same. It's really not been great since like episode 2, though it's been consistently good which isn't something I'm going to complain about considering Digimon series tend to have weak beginnings. Also we have the results of the next DigiPoll. I'm unimpressed, as usual. https://twitter.com/Wikimon_news/status/1304032331548815360 https://twitter.com/Wikimon_news/status/1304032333473943552
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Sep 10, 2020 13:52
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Sangloupmon? That’s weird. That’s one of those monsters that I always forget exists. Has it even been in anything other than the card game...?
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Sep 10, 2020 14:01
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It's a cool edgy vampire wolf, of course people are gonna love it.
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Sep 10, 2020 14:04
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Hitlersaurus Christ posted:Sangloupmon? That’s weird. That’s one of those monsters that I always forget exists. Has it even been in anything other than the card game...? Lots of games. 
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Sep 10, 2020 14:33
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