Roman/ancient history: Checkmate, Atenists

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Ask/Tell > Roman/ancient history: Checkmate, Atenists

RocknRollaAyatollah: Nov 26, 2008; Lipstick Apathy

Typo posted:

It was forced labor in the sense that it was a form of tax. It was mostly just a labor tax levied on peasant households. Not slavery.

Slavery did exist in Qin China and was used to build the wall but it was a type of punishment in a fashion similar to how slavery was a punishment for crimes in Rome. Corvee-style labor though was more common and also used to build the Great Wall during that period. I imagine more of the conscripted laborers died due to their greater numbers and not being the property of the Emperor or his court.

Slavery did exist throughout Imperial China but it differed from dynasty to dynasty and would often be reduced but then reinstated to the previous level or increased all the time based on the whims of leaders. It's not really an analog to modern European/American systems of chattel slavery and seemed to most often be a punishment for crimes, although entire families could remain in bondage for generations. Corvee-style taxation was much more common and used up until the Republican period. Several generals would use corvee laborers for infrastructure projects during the Second Sino-Japanese War and this was considered pretty normal, although obviously unpopular.

# ? Sep 10, 2020 16:09

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# ? May 10, 2024 00:12

Lawman 0: Aug 17, 2010

Who started the rule of two for offices that keeps popping up in the ancient world?

# ? Sep 10, 2020 19:10

Sarern: Nov 4, 2008; Won't you take me to
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Lawman 0 posted:

Who started the rule of two for offices that keeps popping up in the ancient world?

Pretty sure it was the ancient priest-king Darth Bane.

# ? Sep 10, 2020 19:19

Grand Fromage: Jan 30, 2006; L-l-look at you bar-bartender, a-a pa-pathetic creature of meat and bone, un-underestimating my l-l-liver's ability to metab-meTABolize t-toxins. How can you p-poison a perfect, immortal alcohOLIC?

Lawman 0 posted:

Who started the rule of two for offices that keeps popping up in the ancient world?

It's probably the most obvious compromise between realizing that putting too much power in one person's hands is a terrible idea and the need for clear leadership in crisis situations. And it can work quite well for a long time. It's easy to point out the flaws in the Roman government prior to the principate, but you can't lose sight of the fact that it worked for a solid 400 years, and the stresses that eventually started its breakdown most likely could have been avoided if the rich had been willing to give up some of their power and privilege for the benefit of society as a whole.

# ? Sep 10, 2020 19:32

Ola: Jul 19, 2004

Lawman 0 posted:

Who started the rule of two for offices that keeps popping up in the ancient world?

Usually the other guy, when he couldn't quite be defeated.

# ? Sep 10, 2020 19:33

cheetah7071: Oct 20, 2010; honk honk; College Slice

Grand Fromage posted:

It's probably the most obvious compromise between realizing that putting too much power in one person's hands is a terrible idea and the need for clear leadership in crisis situations. And it can work quite well for a long time. It's easy to point out the flaws in the Roman government prior to the principate, but you can't lose sight of the fact that it worked for a solid 400 years, and the stresses that eventually started its breakdown most likely could have been avoided if the rich had been willing to give up some of their power and privilege for the benefit of society as a whole.

So, it couldn't have been avoided

# ? Sep 10, 2020 19:35

Grand Fromage: Jan 30, 2006; L-l-look at you bar-bartender, a-a pa-pathetic creature of meat and bone, un-underestimating my l-l-liver's ability to metab-meTABolize t-toxins. How can you p-poison a perfect, immortal alcohOLIC?

What do you mean, the rich and powerful always have the best interests of the rest of us at heart! That was a one time event. Never again.

# ? Sep 10, 2020 19:38

Crab Dad: Dec 28, 2002; behold i have tempered and refined thee, but not as silver; as CRAB

If they get too uppity you can always pay half the poor to kill the other half.

# ? Sep 10, 2020 20:12

Lawman 0: Aug 17, 2010

Grand Fromage posted:

It's probably the most obvious compromise between realizing that putting too much power in one person's hands is a terrible idea and the need for clear leadership in crisis situations. And it can work quite well for a long time. It's easy to point out the flaws in the Roman government prior to the principate, but you can't lose sight of the fact that it worked for a solid 400 years, and the stresses that eventually started its breakdown most likely could have been avoided if the rich had been willing to give up some of their power and privilege for the benefit of society as a whole.

Right I was mostly curious if had like some sort of bronze age predecessor because it seems like this form of government was spread across the entire med.

# ? Sep 10, 2020 21:38

sullat: Jan 9, 2012

Speaking of Chinese history, I was watching a documentary the other day and was impressed by the evil barbarians' battlefield-portable counterweight trebuchets. Very easy to knock out the Imperial turtle formations.

# ? Sep 10, 2020 23:02

Stringent: Dec 22, 2004; image text goes here

RocknRollaAyatollah posted:

Slavery did exist in Qin China and was used to build the wall but it was a type of punishment in a fashion similar to how slavery was a punishment for crimes in Rome. Corvee-style labor though was more common and also used to build the Great Wall during that period. I imagine more of the conscripted laborers died due to their greater numbers and not being the property of the Emperor or his court.

Slavery did exist throughout Imperial China but it differed from dynasty to dynasty and would often be reduced but then reinstated to the previous level or increased all the time based on the whims of leaders. It's not really an analog to modern European/American systems of chattel slavery and seemed to most often be a punishment for crimes, although entire families could remain in bondage for generations. Corvee-style taxation was much more common and used up until the Republican period. Several generals would use corvee laborers for infrastructure projects during the Second Sino-Japanese War and this was considered pretty normal, although obviously unpopular.

Would it have been analogous to how prisoners in the US are used for fire fighting or road cleanup, etc? Or was it a lifelong condition?

# ? Sep 11, 2020 01:13

RocknRollaAyatollah: Nov 26, 2008; Lipstick Apathy

Stringent posted:

Would it have been analogous to how prisoners in the US are used for fire fighting or road cleanup, etc? Or was it a lifelong condition?

Slavery or corvee? The conditions of slavery differed from dynasty but in the Qin Dynasty it could have lasted up to 15 years the Qin Dynasty didn't last long. The Han Dynasty would do a lot of manumission but would keep slavery as a limited time punishment in lieu of forfeiture of family or property. It changed a good deal but the Mongols were fans of it and slavery was big in the Yuan Dynasty but kind of "equal opportunity" despite the ethnic stratification of society. In the Qing Dynasty the Yongzheng Emperor emancipated most of the slaves in China, they still existed around the time of the Taiping Rebellion, but would still keep slavery to serve as labor for frontier garrisons or to exile people from their communities, especially if they were Mongols or another ethnicity barred from freely traveling the empire. The length of time of bondage tended to last based on the crime or the situation. Young girls could also be sold into bondage by their parents and would become maids or concubines.

Corvee differed depending on the dynasty from for a project, a month, the season, or some other length of time essentially using conscripted labor in place of paying a tax or in a fashion similar to military conscription as a duty to the empire. This website seems to have a good overview of it in Ancient China. http://www.chinaknowledge.de/History/Terms/yaoyi.html In modern China it was more analogous to US prison labor in that they would be doing public works projects for no pay. I was trying to find the instance of an NRA/warlord general doing it during the Second Sino-Japanese War but it was road work he was demanding to have done and Chiang wouldn't spare the troops to do the job and they had no real money to use due to hyperinflation and generals being corrupt.

RocknRollaAyatollah fucked around with this message at 03:27 on Sep 11, 2020

# ? Sep 11, 2020 03:23

Dalael: Oct 14, 2014; Hello. Yep, I still think Atlantis is Bolivia, yep, I'm still a giant idiot, yep, I'm still a huge racist. Some things never change!

Grand Fromage posted:

What do you mean, the rich and powerful always have the best interests of the rest of us at heart! That was a one time event. Never again.

If a rich person asks you if you need a hug, it's probably cuz they want to try and lift your wallet.

# ? Sep 11, 2020 03:31

Arglebargle III: Feb 21, 2006

Up until the early 20th century there were still hill tribes in southern China who were well-known for abducting lowland girls and keeping them as slaves.

# ? Sep 11, 2020 03:35

Global Disorder: Jan 9, 2020

Grand Fromage posted:

It's probably the most obvious compromise between realizing that putting too much power in one person's hands is a terrible idea and the need for clear leadership in crisis situations.

Btw, what happened when the consuls disagreed on something important? Was there any formal rule to prevent a standstill when backstage deals just weren't working?

# ? Sep 11, 2020 04:17

cheetah7071: Oct 20, 2010; honk honk; College Slice

Global Disorder posted:

Btw, what happened when the consuls disagreed on something important? Was there any formal rule to prevent a standstill when backstage deals just weren't working?

custom was to trade off months

if a consul was serious enough about it to break custom then the default was just nothing happening

# ? Sep 11, 2020 04:27

shirunei: Sep 7, 2018; I tried to run away. To take the easy way out. I'll live through the suffering. When I die, I want to feel like I did my best.

Cetea posted:

.....writing has only been with us for about 6000 years at best

Arguably longer than that if you take into account https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tally_stick enumeration has been around for a long time.

# ? Sep 11, 2020 04:44

Stringent: Dec 22, 2004; image text goes here

https://twitter.com/JOHNNYRYAN101/status/1304055776596508672?s=20

# ? Sep 11, 2020 04:48

Grand Fromage: Jan 30, 2006; L-l-look at you bar-bartender, a-a pa-pathetic creature of meat and bone, un-underestimating my l-l-liver's ability to metab-meTABolize t-toxins. How can you p-poison a perfect, immortal alcohOLIC?

shirunei posted:

Arguably longer than that if you take into account https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tally_stick enumeration has been around for a long time.

Tally sticks aren't writing. They don't record a language.

# ? Sep 11, 2020 04:48

Jazerus: May 24, 2011

Global Disorder posted:

Btw, what happened when the consuls disagreed on something important? Was there any formal rule to prevent a standstill when backstage deals just weren't working?

nothing ironclad

of course, there were still backroom ways for the senate to favor one consul over the other, like declaring it was an ill-omened day any time one consul tried to do something and not when the other one did things. that's how the caesar-cato feud got going in earnest iirc

this only works when everybody's in rome of course. out on the field, consuls customarily swapped command every day if they disagreed on how the battles should be fought. this was every bit as much of a shitshow as it sounds

Jazerus fucked around with this message at 06:31 on Sep 11, 2020

# ? Sep 11, 2020 04:51

Cetea: Jun 14, 2013

The shitshow lead to that perfect victory by Hannibal at Cannae though, so at least it made for a really good story in the end (and a ton of military academies still love to use it as an example of double envelopment).

Speaking of Cannae, I recall reading that the Consul who didn't want to engage Hannibal was offered a way out by one of his soldiers, but he refused, told the soldier to get out himself and bring the news of the defeat to Rome, and that he should die with his men (I also recall something about the same consul saying something along the lines of "I have always kept Fabius' advice in mind", but I could be misremembering). Meanwhile the Consul who did choose to fight took a horse and fled the battlefield. Does anyone know where the primary source for that comes from, and what happened to the Consul who ran away?

Cetea fucked around with this message at 06:18 on Sep 11, 2020

# ? Sep 11, 2020 06:12

Epicurius: Apr 10, 2010; College Slice

cheetah7071 posted:

custom was to trade off months

if a consul was serious enough about it to break custom then the default was just nothing happening

There was a famous battle in late Republican Rome called the Battle of Arausio. There were these two German tribes called the Cimbri and the Teutones who had migrated into Roman territory. The two consuls at the time were Publius Rutilius Rufus and Gnaeus Mallius Maximus, and it was expected Rutilius, who was an experienced commander, would lead the army to stop them. For whatever reason, he didn't, and nobody knows why, but it was probably something political, maybe related to Gaius Marius, but for all we know, he was just sick or something. So Mallius led the army out. Because Mallius didn't have much army experience, and because there were a lot of Germans, the Senate appointed one of the previous year's consuls, Quintus Servilius Caepio, to lead a proconsular army to assist in the battle. (He had a pretty successful military career in Gaul the year before, taking the settlement that would go on to become Toulouse, and there's a pretty exciting story about the mystery of the loot from the sacking of the city, but that's neither here nor there).

So now you had the two armies out there, but the problem was that Mallius and Servilius Caepio hated each other. Servilius Caepio was upset that Mallius was in command because of his rank, given Mallius's inexperience and because Mallius was a novus homo, while the Servilii Caepiones were an old established patrician family. So the two of them got into this giant fight, and it ended with the two army camps separating from each other, on opposite sides of the river. So the Germans attacked, and because the two commanders couldn't cooperate, both armies were wiped out, and both generals put on trial and exiled (which they probably both deserved.) Then Gaius Marius raised his own army, and beat the Germans back, because of course he did.

# ? Sep 11, 2020 06:26

Power Khan: Aug 20, 2011; by Fritz the Horse

Cyrano4747 posted:

Cetea, let me be blunt:

You are talking to a lot of people in this thread who are very, very knowledgable about these subjects. I haven't posted in this thread myself for a few years, but I know that the other A/T history threads attract people with PhDs in their relevant subjects, non-academic researchers with published books on the subjects, people with extensive (and very well researched ) blogs on individual niches, and posters who are active in professional non-academic capacities doing historical research and writing for companies. And that's before you get into the extremely common "goon who is just really interested in this poo poo and has read a ton of books on the subject based on years of talking to the dorks Cyrano just outlined."

To give an example, I don't know if they still post here but we used to have a person who made their own steppe war bows, based off of years of research and examination of surviving weapons. That poster forgot more about ancient archery than I'll ever learn about a single subject in my lifetime.

This isn't to say that someone has to be these things to read, enjoy, and contribute to a thread like this. But it is worth understanding that there are a lot of very knowledgable people in them and if you post poo poo that's wrong people are going to see it, recognize it, and refute it. If you want to dig in you need to have both an understanding of what your'e arguing and some solid sources to back you up.

As someone who has been both a student an an educator, I've seen people do what you're doing a lot. You start with a couple of readily accessible sources, dive in, and think you see some connections. That's great. That's the first step towards being a researcher. But you're putting the cart before the horse. You shouldn't approach these issues from the perspective of what you think you know to be true, you should be approaching it from the perspective of what you want to find out. If you ask about the relationship of slavery to the ancient world I'm sure people here can give you entire reading lists of good books to check out. There's also a history book thread over in TBB if you need more sources.

I'm still here

# ? Sep 11, 2020 07:08

Libluini: May 18, 2012; I gravitated towards the Greens, eventually even joining the party itself.

The Linke is a party I grudgingly accept exists, but I've learned enough about DDR-history I can't bring myself to trust a party that was once the SED, a party leading the corrupt state apparatus ...; Grimey Drawer

Grand Fromage posted:

Tally sticks aren't writing. They don't record a language.

Still, a couple pages ago someone posted a link to a list of untranslated writing systems and after going down the rabbit hole that is Wikipedia, I found out that apparently, some proto-languages go back ca. 8-10 thousand years.

# ? Sep 11, 2020 08:35

Ras Het: May 23, 2007; when I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child - but now I am a man.

Libluini posted:

Still, a couple pages ago someone posted a link to a list of untranslated writing systems and after going down the rabbit hole that is Wikipedia, I found out that apparently, some proto-languages go back ca. 8-10 thousand years.

That just means that we have some sort of a reconstruction for ancestral languages that old. Humans have been speaking languages for maybe 100 000 years. Also I don't see what that has to do with tally sticks

# ? Sep 11, 2020 08:55

Tias: May 25, 2008; Pictured: the patron saint of internet political arguments (probably)

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Cetea posted:

Oh nothing much, just the separation of powers, checks and balances and etc. And everyone had massive amounts of slave labour in the 1700s; it was industrialization that gave people the economic push to free slaves.

On that note, it's very interesting to me how the ancient Germanic tribes (that I know of) were the only society during that time that was anti slavery; does anyone know of any studies that examined why this was the case? Everyone else thought it was just natural.

Which time are you talking about? Since at least the migration age, germanic tribes took slaves.

# ? Sep 11, 2020 09:16

Libluini: May 18, 2012; I gravitated towards the Greens, eventually even joining the party itself.

The Linke is a party I grudgingly accept exists, but I've learned enough about DDR-history I can't bring myself to trust a party that was once the SED, a party leading the corrupt state apparatus ...; Grimey Drawer

Ras Het posted:

That just means that we have some sort of a reconstruction for ancestral languages that old. Humans have been speaking languages for maybe 100 000 years. Also I don't see what that has to do with tally sticks

We were talking about how old written languages are, you must have missed a couple posts.

# ? Sep 11, 2020 09:29

Crab Dad: Dec 28, 2002; behold i have tempered and refined thee, but not as silver; as CRAB

Holy poo poo I�m taking a train to Rome. I can�t believe I�ll be walking the city in just over an hour

# ? Sep 11, 2020 09:37

Ras Het: May 23, 2007; when I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child - but now I am a man.

Libluini posted:

We were talking about how old written languages are, you must have missed a couple posts.

Then you meant "proto-writing", not "proto-language"

# ? Sep 11, 2020 09:40

Libluini: May 18, 2012; I gravitated towards the Greens, eventually even joining the party itself.

The Linke is a party I grudgingly accept exists, but I've learned enough about DDR-history I can't bring myself to trust a party that was once the SED, a party leading the corrupt state apparatus ...; Grimey Drawer

Ras Het posted:

Then you meant "proto-writing", not "proto-language"

Yes, that's why my post began with "writing systems". Did you just get amnesia mid-sentence? Or did you just skim it without really reading?

# ? Sep 11, 2020 09:59

Ras Het: May 23, 2007; when I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child - but now I am a man.

I'm sorry for being confused by your misleading, incorrect terminology

# ? Sep 11, 2020 10:16

Libluini: May 18, 2012; I gravitated towards the Greens, eventually even joining the party itself.

The Linke is a party I grudgingly accept exists, but I've learned enough about DDR-history I can't bring myself to trust a party that was once the SED, a party leading the corrupt state apparatus ...; Grimey Drawer

Ras Het posted:

I'm sorry for being confused by your misleading, incorrect terminology

Thanks, in the future, I'll try to make my sentences shorter and clearer, for your convenience.

# ? Sep 11, 2020 10:49

Nothingtoseehere: Nov 11, 2010

LingcodKilla posted:

Holy poo poo I’m taking a train to Rome. I can’t believe I’ll be walking the city in just over an hour

Have fun! Hopefully it'll be a bit quieter at the moment, but it's a wierd experience. Plenty to see though, and in unexpected places - the vactian has a large display of mummies and other stuff from ancient egypt, for example.

# ? Sep 11, 2020 10:59

GoutPatrol: Oct 17, 2009; *Stupid Babby*

Does anyone have some good sources on the Rashidun Caliphate and the historicity of it/the rulers? I'm sifting through Seeing Islam as Others Saw It for my own knowledge and a couple other journals online, but I'm looking for stuff that easier for high schoolers to read. I know everyone is poopooing "pop history" but I really could use some concise, easier to read stuff that doesn't start to veer into "islam is a lie" junk.

# ? Sep 11, 2020 11:37

Power Khan: Aug 20, 2011; by Fritz the Horse

LingcodKilla posted:

Holy poo poo I�m taking a train to Rome. I can�t believe I�ll be walking the city in just over an hour

You better empty your bowels now at a convenient spot, because being up or around the palatine and having to poo poo is unfunny.

It's the best season to see Rome now though.

# ? Sep 11, 2020 13:36

Crab Dad: Dec 28, 2002; behold i have tempered and refined thee, but not as silver; as CRAB

We started at the coliseum, forum, pantheon and just got to the Vatican. Saw a bunch of stuff in between. It�s been amazing.

# ? Sep 11, 2020 15:37

feedmegin: Jul 30, 2008

Cetea posted:

And everyone had massive amounts of slave labour in the 1700s; it was industrialization that gave people the economic push to free slaves

'Everyone' did, huh? How many slaves do you think there were in western Europe in the 1700s, precisely?

# ? Sep 11, 2020 15:50

Edgar Allen Ho: Apr 3, 2017; by sebmojo

feedmegin posted:

'Everyone' did, huh? How many slaves do you think there were in western Europe in the 1700s, precisely?

Western Europe is benefiting possibly the most from slave labour in the 1700s, lmfao. Or do you think sugar profits just stayed in the caribbean?

# ? Sep 11, 2020 15:56

Vincent Van Goatse: Nov 8, 2006; Enjoy every sandwich.; Smellrose

feedmegin posted:

'Everyone' did, huh? How many slaves do you think there were in western Europe in the 1700s, precisely?

Yeah, it's not three of the major powers in western Europe had overseas colonies populated by slaves or anything.

# ? Sep 11, 2020 16:05

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# ? May 10, 2024 00:12

SlothfulCobra: Mar 27, 2011

I know that Portugal and Spain were buying African slaves even long before they found the New World, but I don't really know how they were used in particular, or if other countries like England were buying. I suspect if England wasn't buying it was probably more because they didn't have the money or trade connections to buy much.

I wonder if colonial slavery also reduced European slavery by driving up the price with demand in the New World so it made less sense for Europeans who had cheaper free labor markets to go to instead of literally importing their workforce.

# ? Sep 11, 2020 16:14

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