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Hasselblad posted:Being a nerd who has read lotr well over a dozen times, I would have preferred to have had Jackson do a movie about peripheral stories that occur during the timeframe of the war of the ring. Rather than doing his vision of what the books were. I mean, there is no way for a movie to accurately reflect what each reader had the texts generate in their minds. The whole northern bit of the war seems pretty epic.
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Sep 10, 2020 06:40
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For those who thought the hobbit movies were silly, it might be worth considering the “There and Back Again” was penned by Bilbo, his memoirs. And hobbits tend to be on the silly side.
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Sep 10, 2020 14:57
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Hasselblad posted:For those who thought the hobbit movies were silly, it might be worth considering the “There and Back Again” was penned by Bilbo, his memoirs. And hobbits tend to be on the silly side. Who thinks that? I don't think anyone thinks they're too silly.. I mean, some of the parts lifted directly from the book are, but it'd be more accurate to say the movies were too serious. Hard to see where all that super dramatic dwarf-elf love triangle poo poo fits in a silly hobbit memoir.
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Sep 10, 2020 15:26
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Yeah someone said above it’s the mix of moods that doesn’t work which I agree with now thinking about it
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Sep 10, 2020 15:42
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Fair enough (I watched none of Jackson's stuff, being content with the way my own mind envisioned the books), just wanted to remind folks about what the "origins" of the Hobbit book was. The more you all go on about how the movies did things, the more grateful I am that I avoided them.
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Sep 10, 2020 19:38
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DontMockMySmock posted:Who thinks that? I don't think anyone thinks they're too silly.. I mean, some of the parts lifted directly from the book are, but it'd be more accurate to say the movies were too serious. Hard to see where all that super dramatic dwarf-elf love triangle poo poo fits in a silly hobbit memoir. yeah, if the hobbit movies had been just a single silly film it would have been good, but now there's three epic serious films about a kids book
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Sep 10, 2020 21:48
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They're not serious films come on now Bard downs Smaug using his son as a crossbow edit: VanSandman posted:Hobbits are clearly elf-dwarf hybrids that are capable of reproduction. Love it Blood Boils fucked around with this message at 01:34 on Sep 11, 2020 |
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Sep 11, 2020 01:20
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Aulë hosed around and found out
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Sep 11, 2020 02:27
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Hasselblad posted:Fair enough (I watched none of Jackson's stuff, being content with the way my own mind envisioned the books), just wanted to remind folks about what the "origins" of the Hobbit book was. The more you all go on about how the movies did things, the more grateful I am that I avoided them. Honestly, it's been said many times in this thread that the LOTR movies aren't perfect - and they never really could be. But they're about as good as we were ever going to get, given the different conventions of film-making, budgets, limitations of CGI at the time and so on. It's actually kind of surprising that they ended up as good as they did, given all the potential for disaster at various points. Somewhere in the last few hundred pages was a discussion of the original 2-film script for LOTR and it was seriously terrible with the ridiculous compromises they had to make. But the Hobbit films are an entirely different beast. Massive studio interference, clashing cultures and visions, very little pre-production, made by people who'd completely lost their passion for it. Watching the behind-the-scenes and commentaries for the two trilogies is such an enormous (and hilarious) contrast. People on LOTR are working hard and loving every minute of it. People on the Hobbit are working even harder and depressed as gently caress about it.
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Sep 11, 2020 02:49
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Well, except for Orlando Bloom singing along with "They're taking the hobbits to Isengard" 
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Sep 11, 2020 03:01
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Blood Boils posted:They're not serious films come on now I guess this is as good a time as ever to talk about Battle of Five Armies. This movie is ridiculous. This is not a good thing. The main take away of this movie is "we need to 'improve' on what actually happens in the Hobbit." So instead of Bard shooting Smaug with a bow, he does the aforementioned using his son as a crossbow. The dwarves can't just be an army of dwarves, no, they have to have goat drawn auto reloading ballistas. The orcs charge onto scene through tunnels dug by were worms. The second army of orcs has to have a swarm of bats of course. And Galadriel, who wasn't even in the books, has to turn into a green swamp witch because, uh, reasons? And here's the thing, the book ending of the battle involved a giant bear pretty much singlehandedly destroying the orc army. Was that not big enough? That does happen in the movie, but in the original cut the eagles drop Beorn into the battle, he transforms and that's it, no more Beorn. Even in the extended cut of the movie Beorn's participation in the battle is laughably short. This is very similar to my criticisms of the way the army of the Dead was used in Return of the King, but at least there Jackson was trying to simplify the narrative. Here all of Jackson's 'improvements,' add complexity and questions. The White Council sequence is a good example of this. Remember how I said that there was a reason we never saw the most powerful people in Middle-Earth unleash their full power? This is the reason. Elrond and Saruman smack a bunch of wraiths with their weapons for a while, and then Galadriel turns green for some reason (seriously why is she green? The effect in Fellowship was supposed to be what she would look like if she had the ring) and Sauron gets beaten. Completely underwhelming on the part of Saruman and Elrond, completely silly on the part of Galadriel. And it really doesn't have anything to do with the actual plot of the movie. This scene is solely here to set up Lord of the Rings. And now I can't put it off any longer. I have to talk about the love triangle. Here's the thing: this plotline could have been interesting. But the plotline existed for two reasons: they needed a female character, and they wanted a reason for Legolas to be a badass. And this all together is the worst part of the movie. The stuff in Desolation of Smaug was fine I guess, I didn't hate or like it. But the moment Legolas and Tauriel arrive at the battle things start to go horribly, horribly wrong. So Tauriel arrives with Legolas right as Thranduil is about to leave the battle in Dale, which is still underway and in doubt. They confront him and call out his callousness, then immediately leave for Ravenhill. The action then cuts to Ravenhill. The action never returns to Dale. We never see if Thranduil returns to the battle. We never see the end of the Battle in Dale! Peter Jackson forgot to show the ending of the battle in Dale! Remember, the original end to this battle had a giant bear rout all those goblins. Yes the giant bear appears, but he drops into the reinforcements, not the original armies. How are the original orcs defeated? Who knows, who cares, gotta get to elf ninja poo poo. So the movie goes as it is going to go. Tauriel tries to save Kili. She tries to hold back Bolg's spear hand, but wouldn't you know her weak female arms weren't strong enough, so Kili dies. All right, so now Tauriel goes berserk right? She fights Bolg and kills him? Or she fights Bolg and dies? Or anything that might have some emotional stakes? Nope, she rolls off a cliff and gets knocked unconscious and Legolas has to save her. Sorry Tauriel, I guess Galadriel driving off Sauron used up the allocation of females beating bosses for this movie. Gotta let someone with a penis kill Bolg. I cannot stress this enough, this is not subversion of a trope. Instead of having the emotional stakes of the love triangle actually pay off with Tauriel getting revenge or dying, they just let big hero Legolas sweep in and fix everything. This makes the entire plotline completely pointless. But at least Legolas gets his fight scene. His boring, boring fight scene, which I didn't care about because it has no emotional stakes. But let's switch gears, because the other fight scene, the battle between Thorin and Azog, is the opposite of this. It is the best fight scene in Lord of the Rings or The Hobbit. It is loving sublime. All the stuff with Bilbo and the dwarves is fantastic, and it saves the movie. Thorin's descent into madness, his turning on everyone, and his rage at Bilbo are all fantastic. The only bad part of this stuff is the actual hallucination that convinces him to return to sanity. They should have just let Dwalin convince him, it would have been stronger. And then Thorin's leadership in the battle, his cleverness on the ice against Azog, and his sacrifice to kill his enemy. It is all fantastic. They even manage to keep the single most important line of the book in Thorin's last line to Bilbo. And not all of this is from the book! Thorin was injured in the book and it was Beorn who killed the goblin leader. In fact that is why I think they had Azog in these movies in the first place, so that Thorin could kill him, and So in the end, I don't hate the Battle of Five Armies, but it is the weakest of all the Jackson Middle-Earth movies. It has just enough in it that it makes me want to re-watch it once in a while. But it is a very frustrating movie, and you are in it for Martin Freeman and Richard Armitage hamming it up. There luckily, it doesn't disappoint. Whenever the movie focuses on the actual subjects of the original Hobbit books, the movies shine. Whenever they focus on something else, they get silly or boring or both.
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Sep 11, 2020 03:20
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Agreed with everything except the Thorin-Azog battle sucks (on ice, even). In the first movie they built up a theme about revenge being a destructive and harmful force, and then nothing happened for almost two entire movies, and then they had a fight where Thorin's heroic sacrifice from the books is replaced with him getting beaten by Azog but managing to kill him anyway. You could argue that is an example of revenge being destructive, but they don't really bring it home - with over three hours of movie in between the last scene where that theme was brought up (the end scene of the first film), and without any dialogue or anything alluding to it, it's just sort of blah. As an action scene, the fight is dumb as heck; the rock-on-a-chain thing Azog has is a stupid weapon and is portrayed unconvincingly, Azog jumping out of the water makes no sense, and Thorin never does anything except dodge stuff, step backwards off an ice floe, and do a simultaneous stab that kills both of them. By the time Bolg was introduced, I was sure that in the third movie, Thorin would kill Azog, or pursue killing Azog, and this would do something to worsen the Battle of Five Armies - perhaps cause Bolg to bring reinforcements, or leave the dwarves leaderless and confused, or whatever. And then Thorin, while finally snapping out of his dragon-sickness, would realize that his dumb personal revenge quest wasn't as important as protecting his friends and family. It would happen concurrently with and be parallel to the book-Thorin's realization that his quest for the Arkenstone was leading him and the dwarves down a dark path. And he'd be redeemed by leading the charge against the orcs and be mortally wounded, just like in the book. But what we ended up with was a lackluster fight where Thorin never learns his lesson and never is redeemed. He never learns why revenge is bad, and neither does the audience. The audience is expected to treat the fight as if it has stakes just because it has stakes for Thorin, but to us, it doesn't matter. The real battle is happening elsewhere, and we don't have any personal stake in the fight because we never even really met Thror and all we know about him is he was a greedy bastard anyway. The only way the fight matters is if it has any consequences to the rest of the story, and it just doesn't, because they totally dropped every part of the Azog story except the single narrow idea "thorin's gotta kill azog". Sorry this argument I'm making is kind of rambly but hopefully you get what I'm saying. sweet geek swag posted:the battle between Thorin and Azog, is the opposite of this. It is the best fight scene in Lord of the Rings or The Hobbit. Here's an incomplete list of Jackson movie fight scenes that are better, imo: Boromir vs the orcs (top 1, probably). Aragorn and Theoden ride out at Helm's Deep. Weathertop. Theoden and Eowyn vs the Witch King. Ending scene of the first Hobbit movie (post-goblin-caves fight with the forest fire). CG wank fest though it may be, I still like the Ents vs Isengard. I'll even fuckin take Legolas vs the oliphaunt. Totally agree with you on everything else. The writers did Tauriel dirty, the battle at Dol Guldur was lackluster, and the bizarre refocusing away from the battle that the movie was named after is dumb as heck. They should have just had Legolas and Thorin do cool poo poo in the actual battle (and had Tauriel do anything at all).
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Sep 11, 2020 08:52
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DontMockMySmock posted:Agreed with everything except the Thorin-Azog battle sucks (on ice, even). In the first movie they built up a theme about revenge being a destructive and harmful force, and then nothing happened for almost two entire movies, and then they had a fight where Thorin's heroic sacrifice from the books is replaced with him getting beaten by Azog but managing to kill him anyway. You could argue that is an example of revenge being destructive, but they don't really bring it home - with over three hours of movie in between the last scene where that theme was brought up (the end scene of the first film), and without any dialogue or anything alluding to it, it's just sort of blah. As an action scene, the fight is dumb as heck; the rock-on-a-chain thing Azog has is a stupid weapon and is portrayed unconvincingly, Azog jumping out of the water makes no sense, and Thorin never does anything except dodge stuff, step backwards off an ice floe, and do a simultaneous stab that kills both of them. I should restate, Thorin/Azog is the best duel in the movies, not the best fight scene. When I was planning this post I made a note to say duel, but in the process of actually writing it I completely forgot to specify that. Obviously I don't think Thorin/Azog is a better fight than Eowyn/Theoden/Merry vs. the witch king. Though I will fight you about Legolas vs. The Oliphaunt. I think my big issue with what you are saying, in the Hobbit movies, Thorin isn't the one seeking revenge, Azog is. Azog has spent these entire movies trying to kill Thorin, and Thorin has ample reason to understand that Azog will continue trying to kill him until he dies. Thorin explicitly states that his purpose in killing Azog is to demoralize the enemy army and end the attack, and his cautious approach to Ravenhill bears this out. Thorin's act of seeking out Azog in the movies is not just an act of self-defense, but an act designed to safeguard his people as well as the wood elves and the people of Laketown. And when Thorin realizes that Ravenhill is a trap he tries to withdraw. After Fili and Kili die, Thorin does clearly decide to go after Azog for revenge, but crucially, this decision gets him killed. Thorin suffers serious consequences for his decision to get revenge on Azog. But this doesn't invalidate his earlier logic! Killing Azog is still the best way to win the battle. You can argue that this is not a realistic portrayal of a battle, but that is the logic that the movie is operating under. Here is a link to the actual fight so we can actually talk about it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8KtfHdBNrw As for the fight itself, the chain boulder thing is no more ridiculous a weapon than that insane flail that the Witch King uses against Theoden and Eowyn. It just looks nicer, but otherwise is the exact same weapon. But the most important part of the fight is the ending. Thorin doesn't get beaten; he allows himself to be stabbed, and uses the opportunity to kill Azog. You can argue that this is revenge (a legitimate interpretation but not the one which really resonated with me), but in the context of the movies it seems more that he is sacrificing himself to permanently end this threat to his kin. The idea that he is willing to throw away kingship and wealth and power and just die to protect his family is the ultimate fulfillment of his redemption. And the actual mechanics of the fight were fine. Unlike the Legolas fight, which had the effortless movement problem that all Legolas fights sort of have, this fight was actual well shot (you can see what's going on!), the attacks and defenses had weight, and there were emotional stakes behind the blows. It almost threatens to go on too long but Thorin's trick with the weight and the ice is actually clever. Azog's bursting through the ice is a legitimately entertaining moment. And Thorin's sacrifice at the end is legitimately moving. I will give the Hobbit movies some credit: in general their giant battle sequences are more coherent and grounded than most other big action battle sequences. They still have the 'too much distracting crap going on at once' problem that most movies have, but in general Peter Jackson lets you follow what is going on, putting it well above something like Transformers or the later Avengers movies. This movie has some specific breakdowns in that, which I have already noted, but the Thorin/Azog fight is not one of them. It is laser focused on what is going on between those two characters.
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Sep 11, 2020 18:22
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I like Galadriel driving away Sauron, but the whole direction of the scene is weird, like she seems worried about the Ringwraiths and keeps fainting all over the place.
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Sep 11, 2020 20:25
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I just reread the part in silmarillion where luthien saves Beren from Sauron's dungeon. She defeats Sauron in a singing contest and then makes him say she's the boss of the fortress. Then she just says the word and the whole place falls apart and all the slaves are able to walk free.
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Sep 11, 2020 20:32
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Kemper Boyd posted:I like Galadriel driving away Sauron, but the whole direction of the scene is weird, like she seems worried about the Ringwraiths and keeps fainting all over the place. Its why some stuff from Tolkien just doesn't translate well to the visual medium. Galadriel and the White Council gets turned into an action scene that's almost as bad as the throne room fight from Last Jedi. I couldn't imagine how you could do the song duel between Luthien and Sauron for the same reason. Some guy made a video interpretation of the Ainulindalë and it just does not translate well. It exists in the imagination in a way that can't be expressed visually or audibly because it cannot hope to live up to the concept in your mind, so it comes off looking silly.
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Sep 11, 2020 20:36
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There was a good visual adaptation of the Ainulindalë, but it's not video.
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Sep 11, 2020 21:09
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SHISHKABOB posted:I just reread the part in silmarillion where luthien saves Beren from Sauron's dungeon. She defeats Sauron in a singing contest and then makes him say she's the boss of the fortress. Then she just says the word and the whole place falls apart and all the slaves are able to walk free. Yeah she is pretty good at her job.
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Sep 11, 2020 21:10
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The epic rap battle between Finrod and Sauron has got to be adaptable somehow.
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Sep 11, 2020 21:41
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sweet geek swag posted:But the most important part of the fight is the ending. Thorin doesn't get beaten; he allows himself to be stabbed, and uses the opportunity to kill Azog. You can argue that this is revenge (a legitimate interpretation but not the one which really resonated with me), but in the context of the movies it seems more that he is sacrificing himself to permanently end this threat to his kin. The idea that he is willing to throw away kingship and wealth and power and just die to protect his family is the ultimate fulfillment of his redemption. Maybe this is a matter of interpretation, but the way I read that is that Azog is stabbing him and Thorin is trying to resist it, but failing. Thorin decides that if he's gonna die anyway he might as well also stab back. So it reads less as "sacrifice" and more "resignation to death" to me. Like, you can't "sacrifice" yourself in a fight where your opponent is larger than you, on top of you, and has a blade moving (albeit slowly) toward your heart that you are unable to stop. There's nothing to "sacrifice" there because you're already dead. And it's been a few months since I saw the movie but I don't really understand why this duel is supposed to matter or "end the threat to his kin". The rest of the battle goes on without Azog or Thorin, seemingly entirely unconnected to what happens at the ice lake, because it's been established in the movie that Bolg is leading the orc armies that are the actual threat, and that Azog simply commands a small band of raiders that are hunting Thorin's Company but would not be even a small threat to Dain's army. The scene asks us to forget these facts, established in the first movie and reinforced since, and instead we are left to focus on the personal relationship between Azog and Thorin, which was established strongly in film 1 as one of mutual revenge (Azog wants revenge for his hand, Thorin wants revenge for Thror) but forgotten in films 2 and 3. My point is that the Thorin-Azog relationship is personal, when the whole point of Thorin's redemption should be him learning that his personal wants aren't as important as his social, familial, and moral obligations. But the film just forgot about that. That's why I think he should go out as he does in the book: fighting a SHITLOAD of orcs.
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Sep 12, 2020 12:25
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Bongo Bill posted:There was a good visual adaptation of the Ainulindalë, but it's not video. Thank you for this.
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Sep 12, 2020 14:13
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DontMockMySmock posted:Maybe this is a matter of interpretation, but the way I read that is that Azog is stabbing him and Thorin is trying to resist it, but failing. Thorin decides that if he's gonna die anyway he might as well also stab back. So it reads less as "sacrifice" and more "resignation to death" to me. Like, you can't "sacrifice" yourself in a fight where your opponent is larger than you, on top of you, and has a blade moving (albeit slowly) toward your heart that you are unable to stop. There's nothing to "sacrifice" there because you're already dead. Azog's stated purpose is to annihilate the line of Durin. If he kills Thorin he's moving on to Dain and his family. Thorin's stated purpose is to kill Azog in order to 'cut the head off the snake.' You can argue whether killing the general of an opposing army would win an actual battle in this sort of situation, but for the sake of this movie it seems to be a given. And as I said, you can absolutely read the scene the way you did. I just think that given what Thorin actually said about his motivations it is more likely that his final act is a self-sacrificing one than a vengeful one.
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Sep 12, 2020 14:58
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webmeister posted:Somewhere in the last few hundred pages was a discussion of the original 2-film script for LOTR and it was seriously terrible with the ridiculous compromises they had to make. The John Boorman script is an amazingly glorious fuckup that would have made a truly abominable movie. I still kind of regret a couple of scenes in it won't ever be filmed though.
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Sep 12, 2020 18:07
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LotR shot in the style of Excalibur (1981) would be incredibly sick
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Sep 12, 2020 18:50
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SHISHKABOB posted:I just reread the part in silmarillion where luthien saves Beren from Sauron's dungeon. She defeats Sauron in a singing contest and then makes him say she's the boss of the fortress. Then she just says the word and the whole place falls apart and all the slaves are able to walk free. I just listened to that and I enjoyed the portion where the talking dog kicks Sauron's rear end.
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Sep 12, 2020 19:00
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This thread has encouraged me to rectify not having a copy of Lord of the Rings for the last decade or so.
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Sep 12, 2020 21:47
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Runcible Cat posted:The John Boorman script is an amazingly glorious fuckup that would have made a truly abominable movie. Is that the one where Aragorn and Boromir get folded into one character and there is no Rohan?
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Sep 13, 2020 01:06
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Bongo Bill posted:There was a good visual adaptation of the Ainulindalë, but it's not video. Yeah, this really works. If nothing else, it sort of forces you to read the text slowly enough to get the full impact of its rhythms.
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Sep 13, 2020 01:14
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Tree Bucket posted:Is that the one where Aragorn and Boromir get folded into one character and there is no Rohan? ...I can kind of see how you can salvage at least the abstract basic plot beats of the story without Rohan, but how in the hell can you possibly do the story while merging Boromir and Aragorn?
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Sep 13, 2020 01:18
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Boorman definitely doesn’t merge Aragorn and Boromir. They each get to carry half of Narsil and they also make out
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Sep 13, 2020 02:23
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Tree Bucket posted:Is that the one where Aragorn and Boromir get folded into one character and there is no Rohan? Now I have to read this. I guess this is the Jodorowsky's Dune of LOTR? Edit: "Among other things, Frodo and Galadriel have sex, the Witch-king rides a horse whose "live, raw, bleeding flesh is exposed" in lieu of a flying fell beast, and Aragorn uses both shards of Narsil with the hilt-less half having a makeshift leather handle (before they are reattached)." Oh man, one account says he wanted the Beatles to play the main Hobbits, with Paul McCartney as Frodo. I think I heard of that fact before. William Bear fucked around with this message at 03:25 on Sep 13, 2020 |
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Sep 13, 2020 03:04
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John Boorman's LOTR script is here for those who are curious. https://www.reddit.com/r/lotr/comments/fecmix/john_boormans_infamous_the_lord_of_the_rings/ So far from what I've read, Elrond has a palace made of crystal and Arwen is a 13 year old girl.
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Sep 13, 2020 03:44
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Arcsquad12 posted:Its why some stuff from Tolkien just doesn't translate well to the visual medium. Galadriel and the White Council gets turned into an action scene that's almost as bad as the throne room fight from Last Jedi. I couldn't imagine how you could do the song duel between Luthien and Sauron for the same reason. Some guy made a video interpretation of the Ainulindalë and it just does not translate well. It exists in the imagination in a way that can't be expressed visually or audibly because it cannot hope to live up to the concept in your mind, so it comes off looking silly. silmarillion could only work as an opera
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Sep 13, 2020 03:49
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I'm reading Fellowship for the first time ever at the age of 31. I basically have three thoughts as I'm going through this: -I can see why these are considered the absolute pinnacle of fantasy books all these years later. Tolkien is probably one of a handful of writers I've ever experienced who can make a chase scene tense and exciting. Characters also feel very real and motivated and different. Everyone feels emotionally encumbered, which helps humanize them. Yeah, I can't say much more than I'm loving it so far. -I can see why it took a movie series to push the threshold of the books' popularity, because motherfuck can some of these sections require some diligence to get through (at least on my first-time read). Tom Bombadil is an obvious hurdle, but I could not take one more conversation with an old hobbit about "Well I don't know for what that round here thus that there upon no grey cloak riders round these parts," or a page long description of a meadow that Frodo and Co. just walk past and never see again. -Westeros has better folk songs than Middle-Earth, hooboy. I'm definitely more into the zone of the positive. I'm genuinely surprised how well it lives up to its praise. I told my Tolkien superfan friend about my experience, and he agreed that he had many of the same thoughts the first time he read it. I'm told I've kind of gone through the real initial obstacle course and that the book becomes more of what I've been enjoying as things progress.
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Sep 13, 2020 04:17
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Yeah, that whole section after they leave the Shire and up until Bree is the toughest part to get through. There are huge portions of the story after that absolutely fly. But I will say, the Tom Bombadil stuff really grows on you with each re-read. Probably because, by like the 3rd or 4th read through, you understand most of what’s happening and so you pay extra attention to Bombadil because there’s something enigmatic and wholly different about the whole ordeal compared to the rest of the story.
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Sep 13, 2020 04:33
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Mahoning posted:Yeah, that whole section after they leave the Shire and up until Bree is the toughest part to get through. There are huge portions of the story after that absolutely fly. Kind of gives me Patchface vibes the way you're describing it.
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Sep 13, 2020 04:40
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Mahoning posted:Yeah, that whole section after they leave the Shire and up until Bree is the toughest part to get through. There are huge portions of the story after that absolutely fly. buckland to bree is my favorite part of the whole thing, but im also really into meadow details
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Sep 13, 2020 07:07
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Re-reading the Silmarillion and just realising what a terrible husband Aule is. Yavanna fears her creations will be destroyed by the Dwarves, and petitions to Manwe, who presumably through Eru creates the Ents to protect the forests, and reporting this back to Aule he's like "yeah well the dwarves are gonna need wood so w/e idc lol". Pretty petty considering your wife created all these beautiful things first and you almost got your toys taken away from you, don'tcha think?
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Sep 13, 2020 10:57
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the valar, like polytheistic gods, are all flawed and aule is probably the closest to being sinful
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Sep 13, 2020 11:27
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William Bear posted:Now I have to read this. I utterly love the idea of the backstory being done via elf kabuki theatre. WHY WERE WE DEPRIVED OF THIS. Shibawanko posted:the valar, like polytheistic gods, are all flawed and aule is probably the closest to being sinful Tolkien doesn't like techie types, example number 3 million and some.
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Sep 13, 2020 11:38
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