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Ola posted:Several EV testers have standardized to 90 kph because it matches WLTP and is easy to replicate. So lots of cars get tested at that speed, some fail to reach the WLTP range, other surpass it, which is interesting. Sorry they don't test your specific case, they should really have gone out of their way to do your specific shopping runs and holidays. I live in an area with lots of topography and no speed limit above 80 kph, yet somehow my super brain is able to make use of these test results. Also, higher speed tests are also common. The guy who made that video is also doing a 130 kph one. Video isn't finished yet but from skipping through the live stream it seems like he had 205 Wh/km, 328 Wh/mi near the end. gently caress off, i'm not asking for someone to test MY SPECIFIC USE CASE, i'm asking for a more real world test example
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Sep 13, 2020 17:00
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:gently caress off, i'm not asking for someone to test MY SPECIFIC USE CASE, i'm asking for a more real world test example Why? What difference would it make? Don't you understand the concept of testing to a fixed standard? Why is your local world more "real" than mine?
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Sep 13, 2020 18:11
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knox_harrington posted:I was thinking today that widespread adoption of EVs could mean an end to 110V. It's not even enough to power an iron properly, charging a car must be torture. Apparently the 220v 6-20 outlet in my garage isn't 220v. I think the entire place (a rented duplex) has lower voltages. The Kia charger won't work off the 110 and the one I purchased (AxFAST 16Amp Level 2) does 110 when plugged into the 6-20.
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Sep 13, 2020 20:56
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MrLogan posted:In case anyone at home is still following along, Tesla is still working on permitting for my solar panels. Because I just got the ball rolling on solar 2 months ago and it did not take anywhere near 5 weeks for permitting, but this is glorious communist LAfornia. Either they hosed up somewhere or there's one dude taking care of permits who's doing jack poo poo.
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Sep 13, 2020 21:32
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Ola posted:Why? What difference would it make? Don't you understand the concept of testing to a fixed standard? Why is your local world more "real" than mine? somehow i don't think your "real world use case" is constant 90km/h. i'd prefer something based on your actual use case rather than driving a constant 90km/h since it's certainly more representative of how someone would actually use the car. most of the fixed standards in use today are garbage because they're not representative of a real world use case and OEMs easily tune to test rather than overall performance.
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Sep 13, 2020 21:39
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VideoGameVet posted:Apparently the 220v 6-20 outlet in my garage isn't 220v. I think the entire place (a rented duplex) has lower voltages. The Kia charger won't work off the 110 and the one I purchased (AxFAST 16Amp Level 2) does 110 when plugged into the 6-20. Get a cheap test light, figure out which hot isn't working. https://www.homedepot.com/p/Commercial-Electric-110-220-Volt-AC-DC-Voltage-Tester-VT-8900R/202520892
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Sep 13, 2020 21:48
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VideoGameVet posted:Apparently the 220v 6-20 outlet in my garage isn't 220v. I think the entire place (a rented duplex) has lower voltages. The Kia charger won't work off the 110 and the one I purchased (AxFAST 16Amp Level 2) does 110 when plugged into the 6-20. Do you have access to a multimeter? Because every time you bring this up it sounds like a literally impossible scenario, it makes me so curious, any piece of gear designed for 120V should work from 90-130V, or at least 100-130V. If something was going on making your voltage go so low that your charger hits the low voltage cut off, that would be a huge problem, like TVs and other electronics work, right?
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Sep 13, 2020 23:51
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Elviscat posted:Do you have access to a multimeter? Because every time you bring this up it sounds like a literally impossible scenario, it makes me so curious, any piece of gear designed for 120V should work from 90-130V, or at least 100-130V. If something was going on making your voltage go so low that your charger hits the low voltage cut off, that would be a huge problem, like TVs and other electronics work, right? One time in an apartment I was in a power failure only knocked out one or two of the phases or something? All electronics stopped working. Do you know what causes that?
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Sep 13, 2020 23:58
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If he's in an apartment or condo then it's possible that he has three phase power coming into the building which is then split out into two phase and one phase power so you may not end up with exactly the same voltages you would get at a single-family house. If that's the case and he could end up with 208 volt two phase power instead of the 220 or 240 that you might expect.
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Sep 14, 2020 00:01
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Charles posted:One time in an apartment I was in a power failure only knocked out one or two of the phases or something? All electronics stopped working. Do you know what causes that? Yeah, that could have been an "open neutral" situation, if you lose your neutral (grounded) connection, your 120V loads will divide the available voltage across themselves (I'm not wording that well), but basically the more heavily loaded leg of the single phase connection will experience extremely low voltages, while the lightly loaded leg will go high, destroying lights and electronics and stuff. Or you just had a bad connection on one of the "hot" legs, that just makes that side not work anymore. I discounted those in VGV's situation, because I'd imagine they'd notice other signs of all the electrics at the place being hosed up. Here's a diagram of your typical 240V single phase transformer in the US, if you lose the ground reference for that center tap, crazy poo poo happens. 
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Sep 14, 2020 01:41
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Nitrousoxide posted:If he's in an apartment or condo then it's possible that he has three phase power coming into the building which is then split out into two phase and one phase power so you may not end up with exactly the same voltages you would get at a single-family house. True, but again electronic equipment designed to run on 220V should have no problem running on 208, I know some people have trouble with ovens, water heaters etc. getting up to temp on 208...
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Sep 14, 2020 01:44
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:somehow i don't think your "real world use case" is constant 90km/h. i'd prefer something based on your actual use case rather than driving a constant 90km/h since it's certainly more representative of how someone would actually use the car. Right, you genuinely don't understand. It's not trying to replicate someone really driving constantly at 90 kph, it's trying to repeat the manufacturers WLTP test, which is based on a mixed cycle of highway and city and which the manufacturer may have fugded. Driving at 90 approximates this in a way that's easy to repeat for an amateur vlogger providing content for free. There's a pretty big list of cars tested by now and guess what, if car A has higher consumption than car B in this test, it also has higher consumption in your "real world" because these things scale predictably according to physics, experience has shown. The actual consumption number will vary from case to case and day to day, but the relative differences will hold. If they tried to test "KYOON GRIFFEY's hosed up existence of thundering ignorance" specifically, it might be harder to repeat and so the comparisons would be worth less. KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:most of the fixed standards in use today are garbage because they're not representative of a real world use case and OEMs easily tune to test rather than overall performance. Ignorant garbage. You can't tune physics to test. EPA and WLTP have both turned out to be quite close to real world experience, which you would know if you paid any attention at all. Jesus, why am I spoon-feeding an idiot who is just going to vomit garbage back? Ola fucked around with this message at 07:39 on Sep 14, 2020 |
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Sep 14, 2020 03:59
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Hey, EV range can be highly variable, but a baseline is useful for a relative comparison between cars. Once you have some experience with EV ownership you can use the baseline range to fit your own use-case pretty well. Can someone help me reformat this post to be overly aggressive and use a ton of name calling?
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Sep 14, 2020 04:17
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Hi. I would much prefer not to give anyone a cool down time out. Thanks and insert bad overdone joke about TED talks here.
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Sep 14, 2020 04:19
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CAT INTERCEPTOR posted:Hi. I would much prefer not to give anyone a cool down time out. That guy posts a lot of mean stuff maybe he deserves a time out just look at this post Ola posted:gently caress you guys (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Sep 14, 2020 04:34
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Ola posted:Ignorant garbage. You can't tune physics to test. EPA and WLTP have both turned out to be quite close to real world experience, which you would know if you paid any attention at all. And yet compare Tesla and Porsche EPA ranges to the real world and they're drastically different
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Sep 14, 2020 05:41
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Yo looks like Ford is dodging the whole dealership thing on the Mach E - guess they bit the $15k markup in the bud. https://evbite.com/ford-to-fully-immerse-the-mustang-mach-e-with-an-online-buying-process/
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Sep 14, 2020 05:54
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Westy543 posted:Yo looks like Ford is dodging the whole dealership thing on the Mach E - guess they bit the $15k markup in the bud. This is cool. Recently purchased another f250 thru a local dealership for my company and I would have loved having this as an option. For any vehicle.
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Sep 14, 2020 07:01
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Westy543 posted:Yo looks like Ford is dodging the whole dealership thing on the Mach E - guess they bit the $15k markup in the bud. Don't car manufacturers have to use dealer networks in the USA? I thought there was some law preventing direct sales.
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Sep 14, 2020 07:04
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I think maybe the mods missed a joke there
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Sep 14, 2020 07:20
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knox_harrington posted:Don't car manufacturers have to use dealer networks in the USA? I thought there was some law preventing direct sales. Lol if you think laws matter anymore. It’s been clearly demonstrated you can do whatever the gently caress you want with no repercussions in the us of a.
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Sep 14, 2020 07:31
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knox_harrington posted:Don't car manufacturers have to use dealer networks in the USA? I thought there was some law preventing direct sales. It's massively complex, but sometimes and kinda. I literally can't explain it
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Sep 14, 2020 07:33
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Nitr0 posted:Lol if you think laws matter anymore. It’s been clearly demonstrated you can do whatever the gently caress you want with no repercussions in the us of a. This is a stupid take. I'd love to see you explain it.
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Sep 14, 2020 07:34
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MomJeans420 posted:And yet compare Tesla and Porsche EPA ranges to the real world and they're drastically different Examples? (in before "some guy drove it from a to b on the highway and the range was different")
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Sep 14, 2020 07:40
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Elviscat posted:This is a stupid take. https://electrek.co/2020/04/25/tesla-calls-some-fremont-employees-back-to-work-before-health-orders-are-lifted/ https://www.sec.gov/news/press-release/2018-226 https://mashable.com/article/elon-musk-sec-taunt/ https://www.theweek.com/articles/931278/trumps-post-office-meddling-plainly-illegal https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-election/trump-2020-election-secret-payments-family-brad-parscale-a9642631.html
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Sep 14, 2020 07:48
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Ola posted:Examples? (in before "some guy drove it from a to b on the highway and the range was different") https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/comparison-test/amp30799498/2020-porsche-taycan-turbo-s-vs-2020-tesla-model-s-performance/ https://www.motorbiscuit.com/the-porsche-taycan-is-more-efficient-than-the-epa-says-it-is/ There’s a whole bunch of articles about how the taycan EPA rating is extremely conservative. You don’t have to look hard to find them. YOLOsubmarine fucked around with this message at 08:08 on Sep 14, 2020 |
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Sep 14, 2020 08:06
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YOLOsubmarine posted:https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/comparison-test/amp30799498/2020-porsche-taycan-turbo-s-vs-2020-tesla-model-s-performance/ It's funny if the example here is(which we have discussed at length here, me included) where the EPA (but not WLTP) range is worse than the real world, instead of being unrealistically optimistic. It does seem like the EPA has a slight bias against European cars, Porsche in particular. https://insideevs.com/news/414786/comparison-epa-wltp-range-ratings/
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Sep 14, 2020 08:23
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Charles posted:I think maybe the mods missed a joke there Sucks for them, I have a terrible sense of humor.
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Sep 14, 2020 10:01
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Charles posted:I think maybe the mods missed a joke there I suffer for my art
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Sep 14, 2020 12:26
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Charles posted:I think maybe the mods missed a joke there "Bird with Small Probation" Next time maybe? Westy543 posted:Yo looks like Ford is dodging the whole dealership thing on the Mach E - guess they bit the $15k markup in the bud. Given I think traditional dealerships are a problem with gaining EV sales, this is a drat good idea by Ford. I hope it plays out well.
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Sep 14, 2020 13:06
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you realize you can optimize a car's performance to a set test, right? and maybe the OEM in question has a history of optimization to published test regimes, i don't know, just spitballing here. I don't think that set tests are completely valueless, as they do provide a clean baseline of performance comparison between vehicles and it's a vaguely useful reference point. However, amateurs replicating test regimes inherently introduce a lot of other variables. I don't think you can with any certainty say that the ID.3 over or underperforms based on some yokel doing a halfassed attempt at replication of a standard test. Variability in test outcomes is more likely to be I would prefer said yokel use their time in car to execute their normal day to day life to provide a perspective of what the experienced range was in some real world driving conditions. This is a personal preference based on where I perceive value, but I do think if you believe that amateurs driving at 90kmh to try to replicate WTLP results is valuable to understanding the performance and usability of EVs that you're not focusing on the right things.
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Sep 14, 2020 13:41
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Driving at 90km/h to get a range estimate is the only way an amateur can do any testing on their own. That being said, it makes cars like the Taycan show much better range than they actually have. The Taycan's city driving just isn't very efficient since they don't have a 100% regenerative braking profile.
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Sep 14, 2020 14:11
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Nfcknblvbl posted:Driving at 90km/h to get a range estimate is the only way an amateur can do any testing on their own. That being said, it makes cars like the Taycan show much better range than they actually have. The Taycan's city driving just isn't very efficient since they don't have a 100% regenerative braking profile. Nah they just regenerate when you push the brake pedal rather than as soon as you take your foot off the accelerator. As I understand it you almost never use the actual brakes in normal driving, to the point the regen system has to be suspended for the first couple of minutes sont he rotors get some use. I think Teslas always use the brakes when you press the pedal?
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Sep 14, 2020 14:21
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knox_harrington posted:I think Teslas always use the brakes when you press the pedal? In drive it will regen AND brake when you step on the brake pedal unless you set it to low regen. I often set the car in neutral down the last hill before I get home so the brakes actually gets used when its raining or if I washed the car... A lot of people never think about this, then bitch up a storm when they find out their brake rotors are hosed with rust and the calipers have frozen up because they never use the brakes.
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Sep 14, 2020 14:35
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Wibla posted:In drive it will regen AND brake when you step on the brake pedal unless you set it to low regen. Well that's what I mean, it's inherently less efficient in traffic than only using regeneration.
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Sep 14, 2020 14:41
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knox_harrington posted:Nah they just regenerate when you push the brake pedal rather than as soon as you take your foot off the accelerator. As I understand it you almost never use the actual brakes in normal driving, to the point the regen system has to be suspended for the first couple of minutes sont he rotors get some use. No, the Taycan mixes regen with friction brakes to keep that same old driving experience. Yep, Tesla's regen is based strictly off of the throttle position. However, if you have the regen set to "Hold" mode, it will automatically use the friction brakes to get to a complete stop but it kicks in at a very slow speed like 7 mph so the energy loss is almost nothing.
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Sep 14, 2020 14:42
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I'll post some content - Nikola has decided to respond to Hindenburg Group's various accusations. Trucks not being produced (yet) at Bosch Ulm plant - Bosch has stated that their employee's remarks in the report were taken out of context and referred only to Bosch's plans for upcoming trade shows - but did not actually confirm the production of any Nikola pre-pro units. This should be pretty easy to verify but Nikola hasn't actually provided any evidence that the units are being assembled. The fact that confirmation hasn't been stronger puts this one still fairly up in the air. Inverters not made in house - I think Nikola defends itself adequately here to a degree. Using OTS components in validation and early stage design is pretty common. However, Nikola is claiming proprietary drivetrain, and one would think that it would be further along in development. Nikola certainly spins powertrain and battery system as being proprietary, even if they didn't claim that the specific component was proprietary. I rate this a sort of lie by omission from Nikola and independently harmless. Self-propelled status of Nikola One - I do not buy Nikola's claims here. They say that the vehicle was "designed to be powered and driven by its own propulsion" but that of course is not the same thing as being capable of driving. They list the various components (including most of powertrain, suspension, steering, etc) that were "functional" but reference bench testing rather than actual integrated systems use. They state that they did not invest resources in to completing the process to make the unit drive under its own propulsion. Sure, it wasn't completely a rolling mockup, but the implication of the unit and the obfuscation of its connection to hotel power certainly implied that the unit was able to drive on its own, which it was not. Nikola One promo video - this is pretty damning. Nikola called the video "in motion" and never described the unit as under its own propulsion or powertrain driven. That video was wildly disingenuous and Nikola stating that they never claimed the vehicle was under its own propulsion strains the bounds of credibility. Again, the viewer is intended to believe that the unit is powered. Hydrogen production - Nikola has claimed to produce hydrogen, now they reference a 1,000 kg storage and dispensing operation, specifically not production. In their own press release they state they have ordered electrolyzers but they have not received them, installed them, or powered them on. Note that Trevor said "electrolyzers are going in now" in July 2020 - it's now September 2020 and the electrolyzers are, by a current company press release, on order. At minimum, Nikola is strongly overstating the pace of change here. Also, they declare revolutionary tech and it appears they are buying OTS electrolyzers. There's also some language about the Swift contract, which kind of exonerates Trevor in that there were options up to 250 million, but again this is in a pattern of overstating things - they're options, and it's a little disingenuous to talk about them in the context of contract value. Not a lie, but easy to obfuscate. tl;dr: Many of the accusations appear to be more of part of a pattern of obfuscation rather than outright fraud and normal EV startup poo poo, for better or worse. I actually find the Bosch non-denial of the story about production units to be the most concerning ("taken out of context" is usually PR-speak for "the substance of the comment is true"). The Nikola One bullshit for the commercial and such is water under the bridge at this point, and although it represents a concerning pattern of the company basically playing "i'm not touching you" games, that is fairly normal EV industry stuff and it's in the past. The production story, if true, means that they're still just making poo poo up.
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Sep 14, 2020 14:42
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knox_harrington posted:Well that's what I mean, it's inherently less efficient in traffic than only using regeneration. That's if you hit the brake pedal, though. I generally don't need to touch the brake pedal in my S unless I'm coming to a complete stop, or something unforeseen happens - aka one-pedal driving. A lot of cars will regen first, then mix it with friction brakes when you need to brake harder.
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Sep 14, 2020 14:52
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Nfcknblvbl posted:No, the Taycan mixes regen with friction brakes to keep that same old driving experience. Nope, that's only above 0.9g deceleration. Below that it just uses the generator. https://newsroom.porsche.com/dam/jcr:93483663-c12b-43ca-98f5-b1b8b845e321/PAG_Taycan_Technology_PM_EN.pdf.PDF And just to be clear, I was responding to this point of yours which just ain't right quote:The Taycan's city driving just isn't very efficient since they don't have a 100% regenerative braking profile. knox_harrington fucked around with this message at 14:55 on Sep 14, 2020 |
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Sep 14, 2020 14:52
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knox_harrington posted:Nope, that's only above 0.9g deceleration. Below that it just uses the generator. I was over simplifying my statement, however it's still true. "Testing has shown that, Thanks to the Taycan’s high recuperation output of up to 265 kW, approximately 90 percent of braking operations in everyday use are performed by the electric motors alone, without activating the wheel brakes." But that doesn't explain why the Taycan doesn't do well in city driving. Car and Driver touches up on this by explaining it's the Taycan's high road load https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a33824052/adjustment-factor-tesla-uses-for-big-epa-range-numbers/
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Sep 14, 2020 15:03
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