|
Had an interesting fight... Doing a caravan escort mission, got ambushed by brigands at the exact same time my caravan crosses paths with a caravan from a faction I’m at war with. What followed was a confusing brawl, where some brigands broke off to attack both sets of donkeys, some enemy caravan hands came towards my guys but got entangled with some of the brigands and MY caravan hands. As near as I could tell the two caravan hand teams were neutral to each other but still got in each other’s way. And me, I just stood off to the side and picked off any stragglers.
|
#
?
Sep 16, 2020 18:19
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 19, 2024 05:16 |
|
|
Oh and killing enemy caravan hands did count towards the “get paid for every head” part of the contract. Pro strat
|
|
#
?
Sep 16, 2020 18:24
|
|
|
Is it just me or are shields much more common than other uniques? Don't think anything is as frustrating as clearing a camp full of chosen and armored unholds and getting a goddamn shield. I literally have half a dozen unique shields sitting in my inventory.
|
|
#
?
Sep 16, 2020 19:30
|
|
|
Weebus posted:Is it just me or are shields much more common than other uniques? Don't think anything is as frustrating as clearing a camp full of chosen and armored unholds and getting a goddamn shield. I literally have half a dozen unique shields sitting in my inventory. Yea. Those things get sold to the nearest shop for others to enjoy.
|
|
#
?
Sep 16, 2020 20:12
|
|
|
When people talk about having multiple sergeants is that just bros with the rally perk?
|
|
#
?
Sep 16, 2020 20:51
|
|
|
I guess you need meme builds when you don't level Melee Defense on your bros, makes sense now8 Ball posted:When people talk about having multiple sergeants is that just bros with the rally perk? Yep. With banner/sash as well
|
|
#
?
Sep 16, 2020 21:30
|
|
|
How do you get another banner? Steal it from another company?
|
|
#
?
Sep 17, 2020 00:07
|
|
|
There is only one banner and sash you can get in the game, bar modding. What I've done is to have one main sergeant to hold the banner in the centre and have another "corporal" or two have the rally perk and high resolve to shore up the breaking bros. I've usually only needed one, but haven't played the 16 man starts properly yet. It's nice to have a second man to rally in an undead fight though. If your bannerman should somehow break, you're in deep poo poo. Of course if it's come to that, somethings gone very wrong and you may want to gently caress off 
TheBeardyCleaver fucked around with this message at 00:23 on Sep 17, 2020 |
|
#
?
Sep 17, 2020 00:19
|
|
|
A sergeant is just a guy with rally; fortified mind; and preferably well over 100 resolve (mine is at 132 iirc). They wear the sash and carry the banner along with a backup weapon that’s better at killing things. When you play as peasants it’s helpful to have a second one because rally the troops has a 4 hex range (and it’s weaker the further away your guy is from the sergeant within those 4 hexes; and with 16 people your line will usually be spread further out than the range of rally. The second one I usually have carrying a whip and they don’t need to be quite as maxed out in the resolve dept.
|
|
#
?
Sep 17, 2020 02:47
|
|
|
There's a bit of a snowball effect to resolve and specifically the sergeant with banner too isn't there? Sergeant gives to get resolve to everyone in banner range, they get higher resolve, so fearsome is more powerful, and they also have a higher chance to become confident the more resolve they have( I think) thus having higher defense and attack. This then has a good chance to turn the tide of a battle as company morale goes up, and enemy morale goes down. Hence a massive resolve sergeant is worthwhile even if just to hold the banner, because he makes your bros better. I realise all this is may be obvious to most, but just re-learned it after having been fighting without a dedicated sergeant for most of the campaign. I may be wrong here, as the lads do just fine without one for the most part.
|
|
#
?
Sep 17, 2020 03:05
|
|
|
I often won’t bring the sergeant(s) to the fight unless I’m up against Geists or ancient dead - I’d often rather just have an extra full blown pole dude or ranged dude. Against chosen I’d probably bring either my main banner sergeant or my whip corporal but generally not both.
|
|
#
?
Sep 17, 2020 05:09
|
|
|
The Lord Bude posted:I often won’t bring the sergeant(s) to the fight unless I’m up against Geists or ancient dead - I’d often rather just have an extra full blown pole dude or ranged dude. Against chosen I’d probably bring either my main banner sergeant or my whip corporal but generally not both. Looked it up. I was under the impression being confident boosted your resolve, but that would have been too much, thinking of it. Still, the banner will boost resolve, so if you have this massive 150 resolve guy that would give you... well 15 resolve for the guys. Not bad though. Not actually sure if it's worth bringing to every fight, though higher resolve does give a higher chance to become confident, thus boosting attack and defense. I'm overthinking this, as my banner guy is also my fearsome swordlancer, so i just keep the banner out and quickhand to the lance when I need it. Still interesting. If anyone has math to tell me I'm being silly, that would be much appreciated.
|
|
#
?
Sep 17, 2020 11:33
|
|
|
TheBeardyCleaver posted:Looked it up. I was under the impression being confident boosted your resolve, but that would have been too much, thinking of it. Still, the banner will boost resolve, so if you have this massive 150 resolve guy that would give you... well 15 resolve for the guys. Not bad though. Not actually sure if it's worth bringing to every fight, though higher resolve does give a higher chance to become confident, thus boosting attack and defense. I'm overthinking this, as my banner guy is also my fearsome swordlancer, so i just keep the banner out and quickhand to the lance when I need it. Still interesting. If anyone has math to tell me I'm being silly, that would be much appreciated. You’re only getting one point of resolve per 10 with the banner so ~100 after buffs is totally reasonable, only shooting for more if you know you can break those 10 point thresholds. . You’re also going to look it at a bit differently for a peasant vs LW/Glad. In a LW/Glad build its more important he be a good offensive dude moreso than strictly a morale battery, so I want him reliable with his polearm. If you build the group well you’re gonna be at like 70 average morale anyway so the banner becomes a bit of an afterthought that you swap in only for times you actually take heavy morale shocks. Mainly geist/hexen/priests. You really don’t even need quick hands if you don’t want it. In a peasant game you will probably have a lower average morale which makes the banner buff more conisistnelty useful and you can also have a dude that’s more morale battery than fighter and not suffer really at all for it as you swap him around with reserves. Mazz fucked around with this message at 13:23 on Sep 17, 2020 |
|
#
?
Sep 17, 2020 13:15
|
|
|
Mazz posted:You’re only getting one point of resolve per 10 with the banner so ~100 after buffs is totally reasonable, only shooting for more if you know you can break those 10 point thresholds. . You’re also going to look it at a bit differently for a peasant vs LW/Glad. Yea, this is how I actually play it. My sarge is a 104 MAtk guy so he hits stuff well enough, though his resolve is only 98. Good call about needing a full 10 to get a bonus, didn't think of that. Still fun to theorycraft it. A god tier morale sarge would be a great use for a bunch of farmers with pitchforks then. Would be an interesting start that. Retired solider sergeant guy who's starting his own company. Starts with a banner and sash, bunch of stars in resolve, MAtk and... Fatigue hopefully. Can pick up a bunch of chaff early and have them hold a line, shouting and tooting the horn, whipping them into shape through combat experience  I would play that.
|
|
#
?
Sep 17, 2020 13:43
|
|
|
I would argue that with optimal placement, you are getting 11-15 points of resolve per 10 on the bannerman. Edit: Man, playing cultists again, I'm reminded how extremely stressful their earlygame is. Edit2: A souvenir from my old cultist game, this was before the arena, too. 
Broken Cog fucked around with this message at 14:33 on Sep 17, 2020 |
|
#
?
Sep 17, 2020 13:49
|
|
|
Broken Cog posted:I would argue that with optimal placement, you are getting 11-15 points of resolve per 10 on the bannerman.  And i thought a max rolled adventurous noble with brave and fearless was the highest you could get. That there is impressive. Haven't played cultists yet though. Is it something to do with that Prohet of Davkul thingy? Wait, is that a potion icon I see? How do you get more than 10 though? Is it not a flat 10% rate within 4 hexes?
|
|
#
?
Sep 17, 2020 14:46
|
|
|
That's because he's drunk. Getting your brothers drunk at a tavern tanks most stats but gives them a huge resolve bonus.
|
|
#
?
Sep 17, 2020 15:25
|
|
|
I've never actually done it, but I do love the idea of getting your band of brothers hammered before doing something like fighting a witch or a ghost so that they're less susceptible to mind control or fear.
|
|
#
?
Sep 17, 2020 15:33
|
|
|
Weebus posted:That's because he's drunk. Getting your brothers drunk at a tavern tanks most stats but gives them a huge resolve bonus. Ah yes! Haven't had mood problems in a long while, so i forget about the tavern drink things. In other news. Fighting 6 Lindwurms in a caravan escort is pretty crap when you've sold all your polehammers. I heard this from a friend...
|
|
#
?
Sep 17, 2020 15:47
|
|
|
Yeah, that guy's drunk, but I still think he was around 150-160 resolve as a base. Cultists generally have a pretty high base resolve, that guy has 3 stars, the tier 2 Davkul trait gives +10 resolve, and cultists get +2 resolve every time they convert a brother. It all adds up. And he doesn't even have brain damage! In general, the cultist scenario is probably the highest resolve party you'll ever have.
|
|
#
?
Sep 17, 2020 15:53
|
|
|
My mace duelist is a happy little chappie tonight. Found a named 1h mace - normal armour pen and armour damage% but base damage is 45 to 71. This thing is going to be absolutely nuts; the guy already puts out a ton of damage. In the same fight an orc champion dropped a named head chopper. 41% armour penetration. Guess I'm making a cleaver duelist as well.
|
|
#
?
Sep 17, 2020 16:09
|
|
|
Broken Cog posted:Yeah, that guy's drunk, but I still think he was around 150-160 resolve as a base. Cultists generally have a pretty high base resolve, that guy has 3 stars, the tier 2 Davkul trait gives +10 resolve, and cultists get +2 resolve every time they convert a brother. It all adds up. And he doesn't even have brain damage! That may make it worth the playthrough. Having a bunch of hopping mad cultists that never break sounds like a fun time. The Lord Bude posted:My mace duelist is a happy little chappie tonight. Found a named 1h mace - normal armour pen and armour damage% but base damage is 45 to 71. This thing is going to be absolutely nuts; the guy already puts out a ton of damage. I'd like a mace duelist myself. And an axe one, just to test the headhunter properly. Just need that huge brute with all the right stars first  I have a similar cleaver, and the damage is beyond satisfying.
|
|
#
?
Sep 17, 2020 16:17
|
|
|
Mace duelists are the reason 2handed maces make absolutely no sense. Even with a standard winged mace your damage ignoring armour per hit is only fractionally lower than a 2h mace and you hit twice per turn. Overall damage is higher as well. Plus you could take fearsome and apply it twice a turn; or go nimble and take overwhelm. Or just take Indom for those turns you really need it.
|
|
#
?
Sep 17, 2020 16:27
|
|
|
2h maces are for guys with lovely fatigue that are shoring up a spot for your actual mace bro to stop being an injured piece of poo poo. Not that my current maceman keeps missing all of his 80% rolls. Not at all...
|
|
#
?
Sep 17, 2020 16:50
|
|
|
Yeah, but battleforged duelists are the most fatigue intensive build outside of pure fencers, while the 2h mace is one of the easiest weapons to accomodate in terms of fatigue.There's also the Daze effect...
|
|
#
?
Sep 17, 2020 17:11
|
|
|
rideANDxORdie posted:Yeah, but battleforged duelists are the most fatigue intensive build outside of pure fencers, while the 2h mace is one of the easiest weapons to accomodate in terms of fatigue.There's also the Daze effect... The 2 turn daze is nice. Especially if you have someone around with a quatal dagger,
|
|
#
?
Sep 17, 2020 17:21
|
|
|
TheBeardyCleaver posted:The 2 turn daze is nice. Especially if you have someone around with a quatal dagger, Which you should, because the Qatal Dagger goddamn rules. Even if you aren't slitting throats with deathblow, it suddenly makes a dagger duelist a viable character type.
|
|
#
?
Sep 17, 2020 17:39
|
|
|
rideANDxORdie posted:Yeah, but battleforged duelists are the most fatigue intensive build outside of pure fencers, while the 2h mace is one of the easiest weapons to accomodate in terms of fatigue.There's also the Daze effect... Daze is a nice effect but it isn't worth giving up that much damage especially now that there are more ways to inflict it and more options for debuffing generally. I'm not sure I understand what makes a battleforged duelist so particularly fatigue intensive. With weapons specs the AOE attacks from 2handed weapons are costing 22 fatigue per hit (1-2 per turn with killing frenzy). Yes you have the single target attack but if you're not doing AOEs with your 2h hammer or sword you're wasting your time. A 1h mace costs 9 fatigue per hit. You can hit twice in a turn for less fatigue usage than 1 AOE with say a 2h hammer; or 3 times for a bit more, but less than 2 AOEs. That's not even getting into named weapons with fatigue reductions. A bro with iron lungs would be fatigue neutral on turns where he attacked twice with a 1h mace. And what's more the weapon is lighter so they have more max fatigue to begin with. My mace duelist is going to have less fatigue than either my 2h sword bro or either of my 2h hammer bros and I'm still contemplating not taking recover on him; which is never something I'd do on a 2h hammer or sword bro. If worst came to worst you could slap nimble and dodge on the bro instead - front line nimble duelists seem perfectly viable to me; although they're more stat demanding outside of fatigue. dogstile posted:2h maces are for guys with lovely fatigue that are shoring up a spot for your actual mace bro to stop being an injured piece of poo poo. I mean, if you have a guy with low fatigue but good attack they'd do more work with a polearm than they ever will with a 2h mace. I'd rather not hire someone than have them use a super subpar weapon.
|
|
#
?
Sep 17, 2020 17:40
|
|
|
Night10194 posted:Which you should, because the Qatal Dagger goddamn rules. Even if you aren't slitting throats with deathblow, it suddenly makes a dagger duelist a viable character type. I have a Qatal duelist, and he does very good damage - being able to move and still get in 2 attacks is really good vs goblins - but he doesn't get to use deathblow often. I see it as a way of doing extra damage on the occasional super dangerous high priority target rather than a regular thing. but you have to think about it - ie if you give up AP to throw a stun potion or a net, are you gaining enough damage from the deathblows to make up for it. and trying to combo with the 2h mace on another bro is kinda janky to me. not to mention you're once again trading off reduced damage output from one guy (because you've got him using a 2h mace); to increase damage on another (activating deathblow). All things considered If I hadn't found a named qatal dagger with significantly higher damage I probably wouldn't have bothered making a dagger duelist.
|
|
#
?
Sep 17, 2020 17:48
|
|
|
Also you can always stun people using a regular mace and then get your deathblows in that way.
|
|
#
?
Sep 17, 2020 17:51
|
|
|
vyelkin posted:Also you can always stun people using a regular mace and then get your deathblows in that way. Sticking my daggerman between two mace guys has been fairly consistent. A guy behind with some nets and stun bombs is also nice. A run with multiple dagger+mace spec guys would be interesting. Would need quickhands too, so it would be very specific. May try a run with cheap bro's and loads of consumables.
|
|
#
?
Sep 17, 2020 18:26
|
|
|
It's a little disingenuous to compare the fatigue cost of 2 aoe 2h attacks to 2 1h regular swings. Battleforged duelists can be more fatigue intensive since they share the same heavy armor burden as 2h, but two 1h swings are usually more fatigue intensive than one 2h swing. That should be the baseline of comparison since that's the maximum what any regular brother could do in a given turn w/o perks or traits. one 2h mace swing = 15 fatigue, 12 with mastery two 1h mace swings = 26 fatigue, 18 with mastery So what's the difference when the bro procs berserk, getting one additional swing on either 1h or 2h? two 2h mace swings = 30 fatigue, 24 with mastery three 1h mace swings = 39 fatigue, 27 with mastery So you can see the difference narrows as your bros get better, especially with mace mastery but berserk also plays a role in closing the gap. That being said, berserk and mace mastery on a 2h mace bro can be hit or miss since IMO the weapon is designed to be one of the best things to strike a full-health, fresh enemy with as it's main attack performs well at smashing armor, piercing through armor, and debuffing the enemy hit with a 100% chance to proc daze on hit all with one move. Compared to 1h mace stun, which has a failure rate pre-mastery and a severe damage debuff no matter what. Let's see how the fatigue math works when you factor in mace stun one 2h mace swing = 15/12 again, with 100% Daze on hit. one 2h mace stun = 30/23, for 75/100% to stun for TWO turns, -50% damage two 1h mace stuns = 50(!)/37, for 75/100% to stun up to two targets for ONE turn, -50% damage Personally, I never use the stun on the 2h mace as usually I'm more happy with a full damage swing that also procs Daze. None of this is to say the 2h mace is empirically better. A 1h mace duelist will have more damage, more mobility (can move 2 hexes then swing), and the ability to stun two targets in one turn at times. I think they both have their niche, that being said, mace duelists have a spot in my line all the way through the late, late game whereas I tend to rely on 2h maces to get me up to that point and then phase them out
|
|
#
?
Sep 17, 2020 20:13
|
|
|
I guess what I'm trying to say is the 2h mace fills a valuable role in that in that it lets bros do a combination of heavy piercing, armor shredding and utility with one attack without any weapon mastery. Any brother (excepting asthmatic but if you're hiring any asthmatic bro I'm laughing at you rn) can swing it once a turn no matter what their fatigue is at. It's what my fledgling late-game 2h wreckers will wield once I'm ready to wean them off shields but don't have easy access to greatswords or warhammers yet Considering the dev's other contender for this spot is the "goegettang" or whatever, the pointy stick, is just a weird WTF kind of weapon that is just good enough to make you want to target enemies with it but basically have never used myself and the weird mid-grade polearms with spearwall, the 2h mace is probably their best take on a mid-game weapon rideANDxORdie fucked around with this message at 20:30 on Sep 17, 2020 |
|
#
?
Sep 17, 2020 20:18
|
|
|
It also has utility as a weapon the game can give enemies. You better believe I'm careful around any enemy with a 2h mace, Barbarian or otherwise, because you need to respect that thing.
|
|
#
?
Sep 17, 2020 20:21
|
|
|
Oh definitely; enemy 2h maces are deadly. But as far as the comparison to 1h and 2h maces goes I think it’s silly to compare to a single hit from a 2h weapon because if you have a 2h weapon (hammer or sword) you should be trying to AOE every turn. I’d rather hire a guy with good fatigue and give them a better weapon than have to have a 2h maceman in my company. It was different when I could swing a 2h mace and use indom on the same turn but now that I can’t I just don’t see a use for the 2h mace.
|
|
#
?
Sep 18, 2020 02:12
|
|
|
The Lord Bude posted:Oh definitely; enemy 2h maces are deadly. But as far as the comparison to 1h and 2h maces goes I think it’s silly to compare to a single hit from a 2h weapon because if you have a 2h weapon (hammer or sword) you should be trying to AOE every turn. It's like you're playing a different game. AOEs are super situational, why would you be aoeing every turn unless you have split? How do you aoe every turn at the center of the battle line? It's just so bizarre to me.
|
|
#
?
Sep 18, 2020 02:26
|
|
|
WarpedLichen posted:It's like you're playing a different game. AOEs are super situational, why would you be aoeing every turn unless you have split? How do you aoe every turn at the center of the battle line? It's just so bizarre to me. Swords/bardiches are in the center. Hammers are one in from the edge. The spearman on each end of the front line use spearwall as enemies approach; this causes enemies to be arrayed in an arc; the hammer man then steps into this arc to start doing AoEs. Typically my front line is 4x 2handers and 5x shield bro; alternating. Outer edge shieldbros carry spears and swords to switch to; the other 3 carry maces. Alternatively when enemies halt their turn one hex away from your front line you can step forward and do an AOE against 2. Or use your shield bro to move 2 spaces forward and then rotate to help get your 2handers into position without expending AP on the 2handers. I use the single attack when it’s the only option but I try to be doing AOEs most turns.
|
|
#
?
Sep 18, 2020 02:54
|
|
|
Playing for max AoE is definitely one way to play but I've come round to mass polearms instead because they give you a huge mobility boost and are less stat intensive (no need for mdef if you can avoid having most of your bros take more than 1 or 2 swings per fight). You compensate for lower damage output per unit by more consistently being able to attack with every unit every turn and by being able to focus attacks onto a single target. The combination of move 2 tiles and 1 tile reach attack in the same turn is just incredibly strong and versatile but it's easy to think that your polearm specialists need to be hiding behind a shield wall which wastes a lot of their flexibility. Though if you have amazing bros with good all round stats then AoE spam is certainly very effective.
|
|
#
?
Sep 18, 2020 10:26
|
|
|
RabidWeasel posted:Playing for max AoE is definitely one way to play but I've come round to mass polearms instead because they give you a huge mobility boost and are less stat intensive (no need for mdef if you can avoid having most of your bros take more than 1 or 2 swings per fight). You compensate for lower damage output per unit by more consistently being able to attack with every unit every turn and by being able to focus attacks onto a single target. Polearm 2h builds are quite viable i think. I've used a few battleforged polearmers, they often had both rotation and footwork for getting other bros in place, but they worked very well as straight damage dealers, since as you say, they can get at almost anyone. A company full of them can get very specific about who they focus down. Also, they are able to take on lindwurms without changing loadout much. I totally did not get caught by 6 lindwurms on a caravan escort, and had to piss off because i was not equipped for the fight. Loads of polearms would not have this problem, as I had a lot of pikes and polehammers last time the company took on the same amount of lindwurms, and that went just fine.
|
|
#
?
Sep 18, 2020 10:57
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 19, 2024 05:16 |
|
|
The Lord Bude posted:I mean, if you have a guy with low fatigue but good attack they'd do more work with a polearm than they ever will with a 2h mace. I'd rather not hire someone than have them use a super subpar weapon. If you're using them for the daze they won't, we're talking about pairing him up with a qutar dagger user. Chucking a 2h mace on a bro who 's only job is to escort a guy for a fight or two is fine imo. It's not a perm thing WarpedLichen posted:It's like you're playing a different game. AOEs are super situational, why would you be aoeing every turn unless you have split? How do you aoe every turn at the center of the battle line? It's just so bizarre to me. Throw your guys into situations where they can use them. Back when you had front lines of entirely 2h greatswords using indom, you'd use split all the time. Now i use hammers on the edge of the line (if i don't think i'll need my spear tanks), a couple swords in the middle, with a couple macemen dotted about for stuns. Polearms for the big damage once the frontline shears off the armour. Tempted to make my backline entirely duellist whips for a run, but that might be too much fuckery. dogstile fucked around with this message at 11:41 on Sep 18, 2020 |
|
#
?
Sep 18, 2020 11:31
|
|