|
OTOH if you serve Ashe, he will not backstab you, or sacrifice you for funsies. Nerat will.
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2020 10:58
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 8, 2024 23:19 |
|
|
FoolyCharged posted:Important thing of note is that the PC is also sent in, and we got handed this mission when it was very clear poo poo had hit the fan. I don't know if the game will address it, but I'm really curious about our relationship with our employer and what on earth we did to earn our suicide mission. Comedy option: we are complete nobody, so when the edict murders the two rebellious Archons, nothing of value is lost. 
|
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2020 10:59
|
|
|
Ashe is somewhat humanized in that he at least tries to convince himself he's not a morally bankrupt psycho but is doing it all for something greater. Nerat is a straight up narcissistic psycho whose only mode of action is looking out for #1. His only moral framework is "will this benefit and/or amuse me". It's clear and concise, but, uh...
|
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2020 11:01
|
|
|
EclecticTastes posted:See, I had precisely the opposite reaction. Graven Ashe is a self-righteous hypocrite who tries to paper over his atrocities with flimsy excuses rather than own up to the fact that he's the mailed fist of an objectively evil regime, whereas Nerat accepts what he is and revels in it rather than make up justifications for why he commits his atrocities. At least when you embrace being the bad guy, it's a coherent, self-consistent moral framework, rather than a toxic pattern of self-delusion. With a clear moral framework, even one bent entirely towards being an rear end in a top hat, one can figure out where the line is (in Nerat's specific case, that line is basically all the way at the far end of the scale, but that's beside the point), whereas when an evil person has deluded themselves into thinking they're the good guy, they'll find a way to justify anything. See, I don't get how that works. Ashe still has a semi-functional moral framework, and that means that if he, say, gives you his word, you can put some weight on it safely, and you can use his system to figure out in advance what he'll use to weasel out of things he doesn't want to do. You say you can figure out where the line is for Nerat, but without some "good" in his moral framework, there is no line. If Ashe convinces himself that he's still 'righteous', there's things he won't do if he has any outs, because if he did them, his self-delusion crumbles and he has to own up to his wrongs. Nerat, meanwhile, revels in being a piece of poo poo, and therefore there's nothing you can rule out in advance, not even in a playing the spread way. Bad people who think they're good tend to at least be easier to plan for. And when you're using people for conquest, it's better to have predictable tools. Guys like Nerat will tell you that you can trust them because they're admitting they're scum, sure, but that's just one of the oldest setups in the book.
|
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2020 11:19
|
|
|
chiasaur11 posted:See, I don't get how that works. You've got Ashe's moral reasoning backwards. In his mind, he's the good guy, so anything he does is permissible, because they can't be that bad if they good guy is doing them. In the real world, that's how you get all the truly horrendous atrocities. And let's not forget, The Disfavored are the ones who will commit genocide without blinking an eye. Ultimately, it's not really a "who can be more easily planned for" thing because morality aside, Ashe just isn't very good at subterfuge while Nerat is a master schemer. Ashe just kinda turns my stomach with his mealy-mouthed handwringing about how all the innocent people he killed totally deserved it actually.
|
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2020 12:09
|
|
|
I have no idea how the plot goes but all's I"m saying is both these motherfuckers need to end up buried in the desert up to their necks while being eaten alive by exceedingly slow insects. facing each other and with their mouths ungagged so they can keep fighting of course.
|
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2020 12:28
|
|
|
FoolyCharged posted:Important thing of note is that the PC is also sent in, and we got handed this mission when it was very clear poo poo had hit the fan. I don't know if the game will address it, but I'm really curious about our relationship with our employer and what on earth we did to earn our suicide mission. The LP is doing a wonderful job getting into the nitty gritty of this. Kyros is a tyrannical dictator, and keeping control means eliminating everyone who might be powerful enough to challenge him. Who knows what, if anything, the Fatebinder did to warrant this, but perhaps 'read an edict once' is enough to be on the chopping block; it certainly doesn't need to be a good reason, merely that Kyros wants something. Remember, the backstory for the game is that even just saying 'By Kyros, you're an idiot' is an execution-worthy offense if it can be proven that you are not, in fact, an idiot.
|
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2020 14:10
|
|
|
I gotta say, I'm really enjoying the very careful dissection of these scenes. The game sets up a looooot of things early on that are easy to miss. I'm very curious as how the latter parts hold to this amount of scrutiny.
|
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2020 14:32
|
|
|
Velius posted:The LP is doing a wonderful job getting into the nitty gritty of this. Kyros is a tyrannical dictator, and keeping control means eliminating everyone who might be powerful enough to challenge him. Who knows what, if anything, the Fatebinder did to warrant this, but perhaps 'read an edict once' is enough to be on the chopping block; it certainly doesn't need to be a good reason, merely that Kyros wants something. Remember, the backstory for the game is that even just saying 'By Kyros, you're an idiot' is an execution-worthy offense if it can be proven that you are not, in fact, an idiot. I do not consider this a spoiler: remember those places we didn't go to during conquest? Those places also had their edicts, they just were read by a different fatebinder. On the other hand, reading multiple edicts is indeed considered noteworthy and due to the nature of Tyranny's universe, will come into play later.
|
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2020 16:21
|
|
|
My assumption on the Edict of Execution was that knew exactly what she was doing all along. Actually thats my assumption for the entire game.
|
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2020 17:44
|
|
|
FoolyCharged posted:Important thing of note is that the PC is also sent in, and we got handed this mission when it was very clear poo poo had hit the fan. I don't know if the game will address it, but I'm really curious about our relationship with our employer and what on earth we did to earn our suicide mission. Well, it sort of begs the question if it's even considered a suicide mission? From the way the two archons are acting (bickering and backstabbing each other to the last possible moment) it doesn't really seem like anyone on the side of the baddies takes this uprising particularly seriously. That's at least partially because of their incompetence of course but I sort of get the feeling that it's representative of how most of the higher ups in the evil empire see things - like it's an inevitability that the rebellion will be put down one way or the other at the end of the day. Who knows, maybe the PC's boss thought they were giving her a cakewalk sort of assignment?
|
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2020 17:48
|
|
|
It's not like Kyros loses anything if the edict does trigger. If it spurs her generals to action the rebels are defeated. If it doesn't, the rebels are still defeated and the two generals who were too stupid to beat a ragtag band of rebels are simultaneously punished. I'm only seeing winning moves, here.
|
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2020 18:13
|
|
|
Deadmeat5150 posted:My assumption on the Edict of Execution was that knew exactly what she was doing all along. Actually thats my assumption for the entire game. That’s certainly what everyone in-game seems to think. It’s also exactly the sort of myth of infallibility every dictator uses. I really like this, because it co-opts the player into it too, in a lot of dialog, in a way that makes us complicit. “This thing happened. Do you really think Kyros didn’t want it to?” is a way for the Fatebinder, and the player behind the fatebinder, to try and rules lawyer getting away with something. But it also is a way for the player to unwittingly espouse a myth that reinforces the legitimacy of Kyros’s rule.
|
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2020 18:14
|
|
|
Wicked Them Beats posted:It's not like Kyros loses anything if the edict does trigger. If it spurs her generals to action the rebels are defeated. If it doesn't, the rebels are still defeated and the two generals who were too stupid to beat a ragtag band of rebels are simultaneously punished. I'm only seeing winning moves, here.
|
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2020 18:18
|
|
|
sunken fleet posted:Who knows, maybe the PC's boss thought they were giving her a cakewalk sort of assignment? I love the prologue of Tyranny, it's a strong piece of writing and a perfect introduction to just what is at stake here. It is a small enough area to adapt to your various choices and and as such it really makes you feel your decisions matter. Honestly, the whole game would probably be better off as a set of smaller-scale incidents.
|
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2020 18:22
|
|
|
anilEhilated posted:Tunon's cakes tend to have razorblade filling. That's what the game already is, for the most part. You go from one region to the next, solving a self-contained set of problems in each. Yeah, there's the overarching narrative, but that's mostly background noise until the very end of the game.
|
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2020 19:23
|
|
|
EclecticTastes posted:That's what the game already is, for the most part. You go from one region to the next, solving a self-contained set of problems in each. Yeah, there's the overarching narrative, but that's mostly background noise until the very end of the game.
|
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2020 21:15
|
|
|
The Archons: A contest of dickery
|
|
#
?
Sep 15, 2020 09:40
|
|
|
I love this thread, like a lot of people reading I really didn't pick up on how dysfunctional things were until it was pointed out (or rather, I assumed that everybody being stupid and incompetent was the consequence of them being NPCs in an RPG). It's really off-putting though because every time I see this thread's title I think of this album by a whiny rear end in a top hat: 
|
|
#
?
Sep 15, 2020 14:02
|
|
|
Whybird posted:It's really off-putting though because every time I see this thread's title I think of this album by a whiny rear end in a top hat: Let me fix that by hopefully infecting you with the melody I hear every time I see the thread title: 
|
|
#
?
Sep 16, 2020 00:20
|
|
|
Cleopatra Jones and the Quest for More Party Members Last time on Tyranny we met the Archons and learned that we were kind of hosed. Unfortunately the game won't let us, say, figure out that Nerat is screwing Ashe and warn him. We've got two assignments: report to the river of obvious traps, or go down to the Chorus camp and help them out.  If you're playing along, trust me, you want to go to the Scarlet Chorus camp. We'll get there, but right now Verse has some things to say to us.   : Do what? : Well, I've done it before. : [Conquest] That was me, all right. There's been a running theme in this LP about how any of Kyros' servants who prove themselves too capable are a threat to Kyros. Keep this in mind.  We've impressed a Scarlet Fury - Verse isn't just some peon, she has her own command in the Chorus, is an elite fighter, and reports directly to Nerat. Now, she is assigned to spy on us so perhaps we shouldn't take it at face value, but... : If you say so. I have some questions about you.  : If you insist. I'm a Scarlet Fury. That should raise some flags for you. It means that I'm good at killing, and - more importantly... that I enjoy it.: What I won't enjoy are the pleasures of funerary rites packed with weeping mourners. Some day I'll fall in battle, and then they'll roll me into a mass grave or heap me atop a poo poo-stained wagon. One more anonymous, knife-riddled piece of meat. : Tell me about your life before the Chorus.: Life - what life? As far as I'm concerned, I didn't exist before the Chorus. There was some girl in a farm wearing my face and talking with my voice, but she wasn't me. Cruelty to animals is one of the defining traits of a psychopath.  : What of your parents?: My mother ran a successful farm and I worked it for a number of years before I found the Chorus. She was a hard, bitter woman. Acted like the world owed her something.: She never talked about my father, though I figured out a thing or two about him later on. He was a merchant from the Northern Empire who took a liking to her, and she him. He stayed around only long enough to get what he wanted. Oh, a psychopath with daddy issues. Great. : Do you ever wish you could do things over, and end up somewhere other than Kyros' army?: That's as naive a question as I've ever heard. Kyros is everywhere. If you aren't in the Overlord's army, you're being trampled by it.: Of course, I could have labored on the family farm into my maturing years, married some dolt and littered him a nursery of squealing piglets. Having my body torn to pieces by smaller versions of me sounds like fun. Verse honestly comes off as nothing more than an angsty psychopathic teenager given license. We'll come back to this. : You're a killer - better to stick with the Chorus. People in the thread have been arguing the Chorus is a Khorne knockoff but I'd argue they're more Slaaneshi. More on this later. : How did you get conscripted?: How did I... I think you have the wrong idea about me. The Chorus didn't take me as a sobbing maid. I strode into their camp and enlisted. Someone tossed me a dented blade, I lived through initiation, spent a week butchering my neighbors, and moved on with my new kin. : What is the significance of your feathers? Aww, she likes us! : My mother kept a messenger bird, Widderbeak. He was an angry old bastard - spoiled from living the high life. Squawked in my window every. Single. Night. Pecked my fingers while I feed him only the fattest, juiciest mice. I'm coming back to this, the bird is important. : Farewell.TheGreatEvilKing summary posted:
As Verse directly tells you, this conversation should set off a lot of red flags. The first is that people surviving casting Edicts is not that common, especially two Edicts. As we've covered with our Archon...associates...any kind of capable subordinate is a threat to Kyros. Verse wants to tag along with us so she can get more power by association. Keep this in mind. The more pressing part of the conversation is Verse, her love of killing, and her love of torturing animals. This is a pretty obvious red flag and Verse even calls this out. However, all of our party members are representative of a faction in the Tiers, and Verse is obviously the Scarlet Chorus. She's got obvious parental issues and is probably a psychopath. Put that aside for now and let's take a look at the sad tale of Widderbeak the bird. Widderbeak is a messenger bird, and birds are extremely intelligent animals. It's highly likely that he reacted the way he did to Verse because of her love of mutilating animals, and Verse doesn't put two and two together because she's immature and selfish. However, this little incident is highly symbolic of the relationship between the Chorus and the Tiers. Widderbeak is described as an "angry old bastard" who is "living the high life" while Verse labors. Once empowered by the Scarlet Chorus, Verse kills him. This is the great appeal of the Scarlet Chorus to the common man - you get to take revenge on anyone more well-off than you or whom you think has wronged you, and be "free" to do whatever you want. Of course, because the Scarlet Chorus recruits are angry teenagers/young adults with a teenage mentality, they are easily sated by settling petty grudges instead of questioning the established order. Widderbeak is not a noble oppressor who does nothing, he's a hard-working messenger bird who presumably flies around with orders for new livestock to replace all the animals Verse tortured. He does not have a quarrel with Verse because he's an rear end in a top hat, he is probably mobbing Verse because he's terrified of her torturous tendencies. Much like Verse leaves a trail of dead birds and neighbors in her wake, ruining the community behind her, the Chorus leaves a trail of destruction behind it making it hilariously unsuited for use as an occupation force. The ultimate irony is that the Chorus's "freedom" makes them easier to control. Verse herself says this when she points out how useless most of the recruits are and yet is hilariously self-unaware that Nerat is keeping her away from his throat by letting her off the leash. The Chorus is constantly pit against itself (promotions come by killing your superior officer) for the purpose of keeping them barely in check. I'll talk more about the Chorus later, for now we have a new party member to meet!  Hello, marshal!  : It was mentioned you're short on warriors and need help. What's the situation? By Kyros! You're sending three whole brigades to Trap River? Are you insane? : This is the second major attack on the river, correct? What happened last time? : Defeat in detail. We carved a bloody path up the river, but at that point, everyone who charged ahead was lost. We had no Chorus backup - it was just a few Disfavored squads. I can't tell you exactly how they were defeated, but we lost the whole assault team.: She shakes her head, letting out a long, pained sigh We found bodies washing up the river for days. It's not often the Tiersmen put up such a good fight - it's certainly made us reevaluate the number we'll need to take this valley. : We can pass out blame after the war. Only the oathbreakers matter now. : I will assist. Obligatory bitching about how she's holding her gauntlet in the portrait but we get a redundant description. Unfortunately, we can't warn her about Trap River.  Yes, Barik is our new party member! He's literally a sack of poo poo fused into iron armor. Do I need to explain the symbolism for this one?  I'll hold off on the Barik analysis until a few scenes occur. : An honor. Barik is much more loyal to the Disfavored than Verse is to the Chorus.  : I know him as well as I knew anyone during the Conquest. : That can change. When the Tiers are fully under our command, I'll take you to whatever passes for a watering hole in this forsaken country. We'll drink the local swill to honor the fallen.  I like how Erenyos straight up says that the internal politics are more important than our help on the mission. Can you guess who is going to be doing 99% of the work? : [Disfavored Favor 1] Better to work with the honorable Binder than some Chorus children. He nods to you, his armor creaking as he bends his neck: I ask that Barik accompany you there to arbitrate the cooperation between his company and the Scarlet Chorus. : Barik regards the Iron Marshal in oppressive silence : I'm honored to have a member of the iron legion at my side. We'll talk about Favor/Wrath and Loyalty/Fear in a future update. TheGreatEvilKing summary posted:
Just as Verse represents the Chorus, Barik represents the Disfavored. We can't say too much about him yet, but you can see the vaunted Disfavored elite discipline in action as Barik sullenly stares at his commanding officer like a small child for...giving him a very important assignment the future of the legion depends on. We also have the obvious symbolism of Kyros encasing him in armor permanently and his transformation from a man into a walking pile of piss and poo poo. It's not subtle, putting on the Disfavored armor in the service of Kyros makes you a worse person. More later as we adventure with Barik!  Aw, poo poo.  I'll spoil it right now: Eb's voice is the narrator from the opening when the propaganda art shows the insurrection against Kyros. Eb is also the mage Nerat warned everyone ineffectually about.  The flag of truce is one of the few clear laws of Kyros and we are sure as hell not risking capital punishment for this.  : Did the Voices of Nerat send you to gather my head and complete his collection? If so, we'll have to save our tussle for another time - today I have business, vengeance can wait.Remember in conquest when we turned the Tidecasters over to Nerat? Those were all Eb's colleagues. She's kind of upset about that. : You may have consigned my School to a fate worse than death, but you have done well by the Vendrien Guard - many of them are alive today thanks to the truce you forged years back. They seem to think you have a trace of nobility in you... here's hoping they are right. : In accordance with ancient customs north and south, I abide by this truce. This sounds really appealing, but remember everyone in this game has an agenda.  They have some Scarlet Chorus prisoners and Barik gets pissy if you try to negotiate for them. Tarkis Demos is the man we told the disfavored to execute and they impaled. : Tarkis Demos is dead. Yes, Eb is a future party member, I don't even consider that a spoiler.  This was the guy we promised safe passage to only for the Disfavored to murder him while screaming racist poo poo. : Pelox Tyrel is dead.: She nods slowly, saying nothing for a long moment: My apologies, Fatebinder. I had a terrible feeling this errand was in vain from the start. : [Bow deeply] Sorry you did not find what you were seeking. TheGreatEvilKing summary posted:
Alright, there's a lot going on there. On the surface it's just a meeting for a prisoner exchange, but like Inception, we have to go deeper. First it's pretty clear that Eb had no intention of actually getting those two men back. The entire purpose of the Scarlet Chorus is to collect angry peasants and throw them at the enemy for a win-win. You either get rid of angry potentially dissident peasants, or they kill the enemy and are bound to you by shared atrocities. Nerat actually doing anything to get the prisoners back is laughable and not happening. No, this was an intelligence gathering operation - Eb wanted to size us up so she'd know who she was dealing with. We're new but we have a reputation for fair dealing, and perhaps that could help the rebels. The second thing is that this should make clear that someone in the Disfavored war camp is working with the rebels. We told no one where we were going, and we were told to report to Echocall crossing for the operation or the Scarlet Chorus camp. Somehow Eb was able to intercept us on the way to the Scarlet Chorus camp despite Cleo not breathing a word about where she was headed. The Disfavored have three brigades massing along three different river crossings, as the Iron Marshal just told us. Now, Eb IS a water mage, so maybe she had some magic to cross the river away from the Disfavored. Fine. They still have to find us in the wilderness between both camps of Kyros' army. Remember, we immediately went to the Disfavored camp, which had two archons and an entire legion of soldiers, some of whom are probably patrolling the Wilderness. Nerat is a mind reader with nebulous power over "secrets". Are we to believe that Eb and her men just kind of hung around outside this camp, avoiding two Archons, the Iron Marshal, the Scarlet Chorus mind mages, and Disfavored and Chorus patrols for hours before we came out, or is it more plausible they were tipped off? The rebels don't have Archons like we do. And on an unrelated note, just where is that missing iron? Lastly, I want to point out that the rebels are inquiring about the noble captains (who we know are noble because they can understand written orders) but have little care for the common Vendrien Guardsman. It's a little thing, but it ties back into why people are, at least initially, signing on with the Scarlet Chorus.  Oh. poo poo. We better take this.  This is Tunon telling us to be careful and that we're working with one of the two future rulers of the Tiers. For this run we're going to curry favor with Tunon, because we're a diplomat and Tunon is our most effective shield against Ashe and Nerat's collective bullshit.  This is thanking Tunon for the advice. God, it's so sycophantic, isn't it? Welcome to the wonderful world of currying favor with the powerful. Tunon could have us killed for any reason whatsoever, and we need him or the Archons will destroy us.   We choose to investigate.  These innocent fishing kids will also be fried by the Edict. We can threaten them, but I choose to speak.  We're going to tell a story. Yes, we are probably within our rights to kill that kid for contempt of Tunon's Court or whatever, but why?  Hell yeah, free food and the Vendrien Guard respect us more. Pox, incidentally, is another Archon who doesn't appear in this game.  You get this little buff on the entire team for being under the Edict of Execution. Snazzy!  : I am Cleopatra Jones, Fatebinder of Tunon. I am here to help vanquish the oathbreakers. : You know... I think I was told to expect somebody but... you seem too ugly to be her." Her lips crumple into a smirk. "Why exactly should I let you in?" : [Athletics 30] [Step in close, push her down] So yes, beating the poo poo out of a Scarlet Chorus guard gets us favor with the Chorus.  TheGreatEvilKing summary posted:
 What's this? It's just the Illusion Core Sigil. It's just lying out in the open for free! Thanks, Scarlet Chorus! There's a nonzero chance it's a deliberate bribe, but who turns down free Sigils?  We can create this spell which makes us harder to hit. I teach it to Barik and Verse as they are going to be in melee.  This spell knocks people prone. This is one of those videogames where prone is basically a stun, so we put that on Cleopatra. It also deals unresistable damage. Score!  I literally just compared the Scarlet Chorus to a bunch of teenagers, and here the text directly compares FIfth Eye to a teenager.  He's kind of mad at us we sent the trash mob army in to die.  : Not here to follow your every order, but we all need to work together to stop this Edict. : But of course, you are Tunon's concubine, not mine. I envy your long leash and hope you will grace us with your prowess - if only to set an example for the rabble. : [Remain silent.] : I will speak with the prisoner.: I will meet you there. She is waiting by the other prisoners. We have to wait for the Fifth Eye to walk over.  I'm really not sure why the game describes it as makeshift armor when all the Vendrien Guard armor we've seen is heavy bronze hoplite attire. : This one, he flippantly waves at the prisoner, was hollering earlier that she knows the location of the Vendrien Guard encampment - but she isn't being entirely honest...We know which one you're talking about, you don't need the narration, game.  : You claim you would disavow your people for the Scarlet Chorus... why the change of heart? : Why should I trust the words of an oathbreaker? : Tell me what you know and I can see to your release. : [Subterfuge 30] You're lying. Why don't you tell me what you actually know and I'll see about saving you.   Now, this is an interesting moment of characterization. Despite the Chorus appearing as an undisciplined rabble, Chorus commanders can actually read. It's a subtle clue that Nerat and the Chorus command is much more elitist than they let on. Unfortunately they can't code break. Fun fact, Julius Caesar actually invented a cipher so his communications couldn't be read if intercepted. This idea does not seem to have occurred to the Fifth Eye. : I heard her say she'd swear fealty to the Voices of Nerat. An initiation rite would be in order. Decisions Lie Before Us! In the true spirit of the Scarlet Chorus, I'm making goons complicit in Cleopatra's crimes. What shall we have the Fifth Eye do with Variah Kel? Remember Kyros' law applies!
|
|
#
?
Sep 17, 2020 06:57
|
|
: Ha ha! That ruled! I can't believe you were stupid enough to sass the Fatebinder! Come on in Fatebinder, and don't take any crap from these morons!
|
Option 2 is idiotic, we've no reason to think we'll be able to find her kin, if they're even still alive. Option 3 is a waste of a potentially talented soldier. I say go for 1 -- make her do something she can't go back from. That's basically how initiation rites work.
|
|
#
?
Sep 17, 2020 07:58
|
|
|
A typical Scarlet Chorus initiation appears to be some form of ritualized violence, so option 1 seems to hold with precedent. Also, while I agree with you somewhat on Verse, I think you're just slightly off-base. I can't get too deep into it because of spoilers, but there's a lot more depth to her than she lets on. She's still definitely a violent psychopath, but "angsty teen" will prove a bit reductive, I think. Also, while she's not much of a strategic thinker (as evidenced by her failing to realize that Nerat sees her as a threat and is trying to keep her away), she at least has a certain amount of self-awareness regarding her own violent nature. As a result, she has a little more self-control than most of the other members of the Chorus, which both makes her an ideal representative to send along with the Fatebinder, and makes her a bigger potential threat to Nerat. Most of the Scarlet Chorus we've seen are either too scared of Nerat to make any kind of big plays, or out-of-control enough that they'll get themselves killed before they become an issue. Also, it makes sense that literate members of the Chorus would make their way to command positions, since they can read orders and other missives, and are likely better at tactics and logistics than their fellows. Given that people like Verse, who are illiterate, but murder people good, also become commanders, I'd say this demonstrates not elitism, but rather that raw strength of arms isn't the only way to advance in the Chorus, and that someone with good leadership skills can maintain their position without getting killed (note how Fifth Eye seems genuinely competent, compared to some of the others in the Chorus).
|
|
#
?
Sep 17, 2020 08:11
|
|
|
EclecticTastes posted:A typical Scarlet Chorus initiation appears to be some form of ritualized violence, so option 1 seems to hold with precedent. I agree with you on Verse being self-aware as she is definitely trying to shock the Fatebinder here. That said, I completely disagree on the Chorus not being elitist. The first words out of Verse's mouth are about how she is "one of the elite killers" of the Chorus. The entire point of the Chorus is to control the masses by presenting them with the illusion of freedom while in reality tightly shackling them to the elite. Verse literally tells us that's how they control the conscripts. "Angsty teen" describes the Chorus to a T. The actual text of the game compares the Fifth Eye to a teenager, and the defining trait of a teenager is poor impulse control. Fifth Eye orders the immediate execution of Variah Kel despite his promise to induct her, which is going to make people less likely to surrender to the Scarlet Chorus and make it harder to put down the insurrection...at a time when we need the insurrection put down now before literally everyone dies. We will say more on Verse as she reveals herself.
|
|
#
?
Sep 17, 2020 08:56
|
|
|
Another thing the game is establishing firmly with these captives' vignettes is, in my reading, a kind of banality of evil theme. The Fatebinder applies the laws. The laws are unjust, and there is no way to not cause harm by applying the laws. There is a case to be made for harm reduction, but it ultimately falls short. The laws are intended to cause harm, often irreparable. The Fatebinder is unjust, because the framework she works to uphold, and which informs her decision-making is unjust, and she will always cause more harm simply by doing her job. Now, in-character, and in-universe, this is fine. After all, she lives in a society. But abstracting a bit, the text is telling us that when we come in to do our job, it is the structure that determines what outcomes are possible and without getting rid of that structure all we're gonna do is cause harm. There's a scene that makes this explicit point I think a bit later, but we're seeing the groundwork established here. e: i forgot my vote, option 1 as well mortons stork fucked around with this message at 09:02 on Sep 17, 2020 |
|
#
?
Sep 17, 2020 08:57
|
|
|
Whybird posted:Option 2 is idiotic, we've no reason to think we'll be able to find her kin, if they're even still alive. Option 3 is a waste of a potentially talented soldier. I say go for 1 -- make her do something she can't go back from. That's basically how initiation rites work. There's also the issue that we're dealing with an oathbreaker who's willing to sell out everything she claimed to stand for just to save her own hide. Betting on some self-sacrifice deep down to bail out her family if they're in trouble is a sucker bet. Two possibilities suggest themselves. One is that we're dealing with a coward. The other is an infiltrator. Neither is reliable, but the first is likely to be useful if properly incentive. The other... less so.
|
|
#
?
Sep 17, 2020 09:01
|
|
|
TheGreatEvilKing posted:I agree with you on Verse being self-aware as she is definitely trying to shock the Fatebinder here. That said, I completely disagree on the Chorus not being elitist. The first words out of Verse's mouth are about how she is "one of the elite killers" of the Chorus. The entire point of the Chorus is to control the masses by presenting them with the illusion of freedom while in reality tightly shackling them to the elite. Verse literally tells us that's how they control the conscripts. That's not "elitism", that's having a military hierarchy. Elitism, in common parlance, refers to use of status as a cudgel, whereas in the Chorus, the use of a cudgel confers status. I mean, if your claim is "the Scarlet Chorus claims to be complete anarchy but actually people are expected to listen to their superiors" then yeah I guess that's true, but my point is that literally anyone can become a commander in the Scarlet Chorus, whereas in the Disfavored, your pedigree plays a role in how far you can potentially rise. Verse may be an "elite killer" but that's a far cry from being "the elite". TheGreatEvilKing posted:"Angsty teen" describes the Chorus to a T. The actual text of the game compares the Fifth Eye to a teenager, and the defining trait of a teenager is poor impulse control. Fifth Eye orders the immediate execution of Variah Kel despite his promise to induct her, which is going to make people less likely to surrender to the Scarlet Chorus and make it harder to put down the insurrection...at a time when we need the insurrection put down now before literally everyone dies. Fifth Eye isn't being compared to a teenager. He is a teenager. He's a literal, actual teenager. Also, even if "angsty teen" can describe much of the Chorus, I'm just saying it doesn't apply to Verse as strongly as you're saying.
|
|
#
?
Sep 17, 2020 09:12
|
|
|
Option one seems like the only real choice. Two is just letting her go and three is just being sadistic for funzies. Well, one is also sadistic, but it's sadistic in the way that the whole Chorus is built on top of. It's weird how the Disfavored apparently got wiped out in this river and they have no idea what happened except that their bodies have been washing up on the banks for days afterward, so their new plan is to just do the same thing again but this time they'll bring the PC along? Why is there no 'No, gently caress you.' option for the player when faced with this genius 'plan'?
|
|
#
?
Sep 17, 2020 09:25
|
|
|
EclecticTastes posted:Fifth Eye isn't being compared to a teenager. He is a teenager. He's a literal, actual teenager. Also, even if "angsty teen" can describe much of the Chorus, I'm just saying it doesn't apply to Verse as strongly as you're saying. I was gonna say this; the Chorus doesn't seem like the kind of army that would turn down an actual child that wants in and I can't imagine it takes a long tenure to get into a position of power if you're bloodthirsty enough. The fact that he can read at such a young age is interesting. Possibly he was once a noble son of the Tiers. Or maybe the commanders actually get taught to read, but I'm not sure "investing in your troops" is part of the Chorus playbook.
|
|
#
?
Sep 17, 2020 09:55
|
|
|
quote:Decisions Lie Before Us! YOUR ACTIONS HAVE DAMNED VINNIE 
|
|
#
?
Sep 17, 2020 10:42
|
|
|
Option 1Tenebrais posted:Or maybe the commanders actually get taught to read, but I'm not sure "investing in your troops" is part of the Chorus playbook. Keep in mind that the main boss of Chorus, Nerat, is a weird psychic entity, that can at the very least, absorb other people's minds. Who's to say that it is actual teaching and not just a forceful mental imprint?
|
|
#
?
Sep 17, 2020 12:44
|
|
|
Option 1. When you're in a military camp composed of Lord of the Flies LARPers you generally should do the Merridew. Regarding the Chorus' literacy, if Nerat can read minds then teaching a few underlings how to read is a great way to expand your intelligence network and prevent piles of missives from accumulating in your tent.
|
|
#
?
Sep 17, 2020 13:06
|
|
|
raifield posted:Option 1. When you're in a military camp composed of Lord of the Flies LARPers you generally should do the Merridew. When you have effectively infinite people and some of those people conveniently already know how to read, it's usually less effort to just ensure they find their way into command positions. One thing that's more subtle about Nerat's character is that he's loathe to spend even an ounce more energy than necessary on anything that isn't amusing in some way for him. It's much less effort (for Nerat) to just make sure a few noble brats don't get murdered than to teach the drooling lunatics that make up the bulk of his forces to read. Given his propensity for planning entirely too many steps ahead, he probably has a whole system in place to ensure an even distribution of literate commanders, so that written orders and the like can always be relayed verbally to the illiterate ones.
|
|
#
?
Sep 17, 2020 13:41
|
|
|
EclecticTastes posted:That's not "elitism", that's having a military hierarchy. Elitism, in common parlance, refers to use of status as a cudgel, whereas in the Chorus, the use of a cudgel confers status. I mean, if your claim is "the Scarlet Chorus claims to be complete anarchy but actually people are expected to listen to their superiors" then yeah I guess that's true, but my point is that literally anyone can become a commander in the Scarlet Chorus, whereas in the Disfavored, your pedigree plays a role in how far you can potentially rise. Verse may be an "elite killer" but that's a far cry from being "the elite". Except that the Disfavored and other military units try to train recruits, while in the Chorus you are either a gifted psychopath or simply arrow fodder.
|
|
#
?
Sep 17, 2020 15:11
|
|
|
I usually pick Option 2 because I dislike the Chorus and prefer to force them to let their prisoners go, which is frankly as good a reason as any. I find myself unable to come up with a good rationale beyond that because I know the actual outcomes of these choices and that's strongly affecting my arguments, and I'm trying to not just make all my posts giant spoiler logs. And also we are now to what I consider both the best and worst mechanic in Tyranny: Loyalty/Fear and its interaction with your party conversations. I like the Loyalty/Fear mechanic and how you can cultivate relationships that run along both tracks, but because much of what you can learn about your companions is gated behind it you can actually end up getting gigantic chunks of each companion's backstory within five minutes of meeting them. Literally companions I've had in my party for a half-hour of game time going "well gee we've been together so long and been through so much together... [twenty minute exposition about their tragic past]."
|
|
#
?
Sep 17, 2020 15:12
|
|
|
I choose option 2. Nerat is Archon of Secrets and not Archon of War, regardless of what he may sometimes pretend. Infiltration and subversion are key to the Chorus' function. We know Variah Kel's family name; if she double crosses us the Chorus has plenty of...regrettable individuals who can track down her family. She is worth more as a turncoat than as another traumatized grunt.
|
|
#
?
Sep 17, 2020 15:16
|
|
|
Wicked Them Beats posted:I usually pick Option 2 because I dislike the Chorus and prefer to force them to let their prisoners go, which is frankly as good a reason as any. I find myself unable to come up with a good rationale beyond that because I know the actual outcomes of these choices and that's strongly affecting my arguments, and I'm trying to not just make all my posts giant spoiler logs. Yeah we've had Verse for all of two areas and we're already at loyalty 2, at this rate she'll be willing to flip sides for us before the Edict is accomplished. Anyways, I'll go with Option 1.
|
|
#
?
Sep 17, 2020 15:20
|
|
|
Servetus posted:Except that the Disfavored and other military units try to train recruits, while in the Chorus you are either a gifted psychopath or simply arrow fodder. I never said the Scarlet Chorus was nice, they're just egalitarian in the way that any might-makes-right social darwinist meritocracy is. Keep in mind, Verse may have had the correct mindset before she joined up, but she was just an untrained farmgirl. And look at her now! She's one of the top fighters in the Chorus! Whereas with the Disfavored the stories are always some variant on, "they were part of The North's gentry so they get to be an officer instead of a meatshield, though even the meatshields are pureblooded, if common, Northerners because xenophobia makes the Disfavored stronger".
|
|
#
?
Sep 17, 2020 15:23
|
|
|
The two armies are reflections of their commanders' desires - being xenophobic really does make the Disfavored stronger, because Ashe is a racist and you have to be like him to benefit from his power.
|
|
#
?
Sep 17, 2020 15:52
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 8, 2024 23:19 |
|
|
EclecticTastes posted:I never said the Scarlet Chorus was nice, they're just egalitarian in the way that any might-makes-right social darwinist meritocracy is. Keep in mind, Verse may have had the correct mindset before she joined up, but she was just an untrained farmgirl. And look at her now! She's one of the top fighters in the Chorus! Whereas with the Disfavored the stories are always some variant on, "they were part of The North's gentry so they get to be an officer instead of a meatshield, though even the meatshields are pureblooded, if common, Northerners because xenophobia makes the Disfavored stronger". I don’t know if the word “meritocracy” can apply to a group where promotion requires you to murder your superiors. From what we’re seeing, it’s far more likely that Nerat and possibly other clever higher-ups would manipulate to ensure that the really dangerous up-and-comers get killed off in order to keep their own positions secure. Those genuinely intent on training their underlings are going to get replaced by them. If anything, the system is designed to ensure that everyone believes “egalitarian” means only what you can do yourself, ensuring that any actual threat to Nerat will be singular and run into the twin problems that he’s an Archon and he can give orders to the whole drat group to counter this lone individual.
|
|
#
?
Sep 17, 2020 15:53
|
|