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YOLOsubmarine posted:Outside of manufactured shortages gas prices in the US are so low that buying an electric is rarely the better financial decision vs buying a used civic or corolla. Used Leafs selling for less than 10k is maybe the only case where that isn’t true. But if you’re buying a Tesla you absolutely aren’t doing it to save money. Sure, but that goes for buying a new anything. People shop to a budget, however vague it may be. If you're going to spend $50k on a new car and one option says "never have to think about gas again", that might be more attractive than spending $50k on a car that you have to freeze your balls off filling up once a week at the gas station. You were going to spend $50k regardless, let's be real, you weren't considering spending $15k on a Chevy Sonic.
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Sep 16, 2020 19:00
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Finger Prince posted:Sure, but that goes for buying a new anything. Maybe not that extreme, but they might be cross-shopping a similar non-EV at 20k less before incentives, and then you're talking about trying to make up ~12.5k almost purely on maintenance costs over the time you own it since states will do everything they can to make up for the lost gas taxes and then some. Even in the realm of new cars, unless you drive a lot to make the fuel savings more apparent, EVs aren't likely to come out ahead
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Sep 16, 2020 19:10
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Nfcknblvbl posted:This is true for now but it won't be long until EVs reach the same price point as their combustion equivalents with the way battery prices are dropping. There’s still going to be additional time for those cars to become common enough to filter down into the used market in large enough numbers to be as inexpensive as lightly used ICE vehicles. And there will still be a sizable gap in ownership between upper middle class people who have access to home charging and most apartment dwellers who have limited to no access. Many of the people who could most benefit from the theoretical cost savings of an EV won’t have regular access to charging.
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Sep 16, 2020 19:11
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It's going to be more of an issue when there's tons of used EVs on the market, and a lot of people who live in apartments are going to be slaves to the charging networks. I am currently sitting in my Leaf charging at $0.49/kwh, because I'm an rear end in a top hat who forgot to plug his car in last night.
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Sep 16, 2020 19:13
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:To be brutally honest here, if $48/year is making a difference to you, you are not currently in the core EV ownership market. What I would like to see is a nationwide fast charging network which is manufacturer-agnostic and has reasonable pricing. What I was trying to point out is the following:
I agree that the absolute dollar amount is low relative to the price of current EVs. As another comment pointed out, that may not be true in a few years. Edit: As YOLOsubmarine pointed out below, the 230% number in the list above is incorrect. It should be 53% (e.g. $0.28 * 1.53 = $0.48). I'm leaving this comment unedited for continuity. MrPablo fucked around with this message at 20:09 on Sep 16, 2020 |
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Sep 16, 2020 19:26
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YOLOsubmarine posted:And there will still be a sizable gap in ownership between upper middle class people who have access to home charging and most apartment dwellers who have limited to no access. Many of the people who could most benefit from the theoretical cost savings of an EV won’t have regular access to charging. Most definitely, this is the biggest hurdle mass-EV adoption has to take. We're in a chicken-and-egg situation now, but eventually electric companies will line the streets with charging units but that's way in the future. Edit: Do those engine block heater outlets in colder areas like North Dakota stay hot year round? I know it's not fast but hey, they're already there in a way. Nfcknblvbl fucked around with this message at 19:37 on Sep 16, 2020 |
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Sep 16, 2020 19:31
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YOLOsubmarine posted:And there will still be a sizable gap in ownership between upper middle class people who have access to home charging and most apartment dwellers who have limited to no access. Many of the people who could most benefit from the theoretical cost savings of an EV won’t have regular access to charging. I agree that this is a potential problem. My hope that access to free municipal, retail, and work level 2 chargers at becomes the norm, like it is in my area. Examples:
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Sep 16, 2020 19:37
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Sometimes I envy Europe's Type 2 charging method 'cause the stations don't needed the added expense of including a cable in the installation. But then I remember I have an electric motorcycle, and that would suuuuck to bring a cable around.
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Sep 16, 2020 19:41
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MrPablo posted:What I would like to see is a nationwide fast charging network which is manufacturer-agnostic and has reasonable pricing. Maybe I’m misunderstanding you, but .43kWh is not 230% higher than .28kWh which are the numbers from your previous post. Also Tesla isn’t really a direct competitor because it’s a closed ecosystem. They subsidize the cost of charging because it drives people to purchase Teslas which is their primary goal. EA doesn’t make make money on electric car sales so they have to make money or at least break even solely on charging rates.
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Sep 16, 2020 19:45
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My wife has just bought a Kia Niro to replace her 5 year old Citroen Cactus because at 12,000 miles commuting a year the fuel savings actually work out pretty well. It's a really nice car and I'm only a little bit pissed that we had to buy a dumb crossover because there are no good EV hatchbacks right now. What I'm really annoyed about is that we had to replace the Cactus rather than my 11 year old diesel Saab 9-5 because there isn't a single EV available with a proper boot and it looks like there isn't going to be for at least 3 years. The Niro looks good on paper but most of it's load space is vertical which makes it no good for anything else when there's a dog in. The Enyaq is a bit better but comes at the cost of being a much much bigger and more expensive car (and again, it's mostly vertical space). I'd have considered a plug in hybrid but everything except the new Volvo V60 loses way too much load space to the batteries and the Volvo costs north of £45k which means even in a couple of years you'll be paying luxury car tax on a second hand one. Plus they've stopped making diesel electric hybrids so everything comes with a far too small petrol engine which means once the batteries run out at 30 miles the fuel economy makes my Saab look good. I guess I don't really have a point other than I want a proper estate EV and I'm mad I can't get one.
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Sep 16, 2020 19:48
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Yeep posted:My wife has just bought a Kia Niro to replace her 5 year old Citroen Cactus because at 12,000 miles commuting a year the fuel savings actually work out pretty well. It's a really nice car and I'm only a little bit pissed that we had to buy a dumb crossover because there are no good EV hatchbacks right now. What I'm really annoyed about is that we had to replace the Cactus rather than my 11 year old diesel Saab 9-5 because there isn't a single EV available with a proper boot and it looks like there isn't going to be for at least 3 years. The Niro looks good on paper but most of it's load space is vertical which makes it no good for anything else when there's a dog in. The Enyaq is a bit better but comes at the cost of being a much much bigger and more expensive car (and again, it's mostly vertical space). I'd have considered a plug in hybrid but everything except the new Volvo V60 loses way too much load space to the batteries and the Volvo costs north of £45k which means even in a couple of years you'll be paying luxury car tax on a second hand one. Plus they've stopped making diesel electric hybrids so everything comes with a far too small petrol engine which means once the batteries run out at 30 miles the fuel economy makes my Saab look good. Yeah it is a bit weird that there are no estates. It's a big hole in the market, you'd think that the Chinese at least would go for something that has high demand and little competition. And with the estate so popular in UK (sounds like something posh!) and with the recent release of a Chinese EV under the classic UK brand MG, you'd thi...HEY WHAT IS THAT quote:
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/new-mg-5-electric-estate-priced-%C2%A323995-uk 
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Sep 16, 2020 20:05
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YOLOsubmarine posted:Maybe I’m misunderstanding you, but .43kWh is not 230% higher than .28kWh which are the numbers from your previous post. You're not misunderstanding me, I made a mistake: $0.43/kWh is only 53% higher than $0.28/kWh. The 230% increase from my original comment is relative to the average residential rate ($0.13/kWh). Thanks for the correction. YOLOsubmarine posted:Also Tesla isn’t really a direct competitor because it’s a closed ecosystem. They subsidize the cost of charging because it drives people to purchase Teslas which is their primary goal. EA doesn’t make make money on electric car sales so they have to make money or at least break even solely on charging rates. That's also a good point. My understanding was that Tesla sells electricity at cost. My assumption (unconfirmed, and possibly in error) is that the Supercharger $/kWh rate includes things installation and maintenance, rather than being subsidized by vehicle purchanes. Does anyone know which interpretation is correct? If Tesla does not include installation and maintenance in their rate, then it's reasonable to expect higher prices from Electrify America.
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Sep 16, 2020 20:06
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I don't believe Tesla discloses how much the Supercharger usage fees helps pay for their equipment. Since there's so many S & X models on the road with free unlimited supercharging, I feel it's safe to believe they're operating those things at a loss.
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Sep 16, 2020 20:13
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Ola posted:Yeah it is a bit weird that there are no estates. It's a big hole in the market, you'd think that the Chinese at least would go for something that has high demand and little competition. And with the estate so popular in UK (sounds like something posh!) and with the recent release of a Chinese EV under the classic UK brand MG, you'd thi...HEY WHAT IS THAT Well yes, but that's a rebadged Roewe Ei5 which at 480L is only slightly larger on the inside than the Niro, and 215 miles isn't exactly great. I'm not sure what the target market for small estate cars is that isn't being served by mid sized SUVs. Also the long term tests of the MG ZS EV have had a lot of issues with charger compatibility which means you run the risk of your 60 minute service station stop arbitrarily turning into a 4 hour one. VW have hinted there might be an Passat estate coming some time in 2023 but that's a long way away, especially with a lot of cities talking about banning anything older than a Euro 6 diesel in the next couple of years. My main use case is taking a family plus dog 300 miles to see the inlaws, ideally without any charging stops but definitely only once and the MG won't do the charging part of that in the winter and I'm skeptical it's got the space inside either. What I really want is an EV V60 or Superb. Volvo have publically complained that it's hard to get decent range on an EV SUV because of all the drag so I don't really know why they're so reluctant to make an estate. I don't really believe the excuses about needing the extra height for batteries, the Tesla model 3 has loads of space it's just no good at all for a dog. Edit: I really like my Saab, but I don't think it's going to last another 3 years and I'm frustrated that I'm going to have to buy another diesel estate, especially because there are so many government incentives to buy electric right now. Yeep fucked around with this message at 20:26 on Sep 16, 2020 |
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Sep 16, 2020 20:20
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Isn't the e tron basically a wagon?
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Sep 16, 2020 20:32
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Yeep posted:My wife has just bought a Kia Niro to replace her 5 year old Citroen Cactus because at 12,000 miles commuting a year the fuel savings actually work out pretty well. It's a really nice car and I'm only a little bit pissed that we had to buy a dumb crossover because there are no good EV hatchbacks right now. What I'm really annoyed about is that we had to replace the Cactus rather than my 11 year old diesel Saab 9-5 because there isn't a single EV available with a proper boot and it looks like there isn't going to be for at least 3 years. The Niro looks good on paper but most of it's load space is vertical which makes it no good for anything else when there's a dog in. The Enyaq is a bit better but comes at the cost of being a much much bigger and more expensive car (and again, it's mostly vertical space). I'd have considered a plug in hybrid but everything except the new Volvo V60 loses way too much load space to the batteries and the Volvo costs north of £45k which means even in a couple of years you'll be paying luxury car tax on a second hand one. Plus they've stopped making diesel electric hybrids so everything comes with a far too small petrol engine which means once the batteries run out at 30 miles the fuel economy makes my Saab look good. Not a proper EV but there's a 3-series Touring PHEV. I had a look and a decent one comes to £38k. https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/bmw-launches-new-330e-touring-four-wheel-drive-option https://configure.bmw.co.uk/en_GB/configid/z4x8h6u0 Also Passat PHEV estate https://www.volkswagen.co.uk/new/passat-and-passat-estate-gte.html e2: or a Skoda Superb PHEV. https://www.skoda.co.uk/new-cars/superb but I would think an Enyaq would be ideal. if you wait to 2021. knox_harrington fucked around with this message at 20:47 on Sep 16, 2020 |
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Sep 16, 2020 20:38
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Yeep posted:Well yes, but that's a rebadged Roewe Ei5 which at 480L is only slightly larger on the inside than the Niro, and 215 miles isn't exactly great. I'm not sure what the target market for small estate cars is that isn't being served by mid sized SUVs. Also the long term tests of the MG ZS EV have had a lot of issues with charger compatibility which means you run the risk of your 60 minute service station stop arbitrarily turning into a 4 hour one. VW have hinted there might be an Passat estate coming some time in 2023 but that's a long way away, especially with a lot of cities talking about banning anything older than a Euro 6 diesel in the next couple of years. I wasn't being sarcastic btw, just heard about that car a few hours before you posted so I was trying to milk the moment. Just how big a dog are we talking here? And how often do you make the trip? If you really want a second EV, maybe there are other ways to optimize for dog transport, particularly when it's not that many hours per year. Failing that, there's always rentals.
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Sep 16, 2020 20:47
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YOLOsubmarine posted:Outside of manufactured shortages gas prices in the US are so low that buying an electric is rarely the better financial decision vs buying a used civic or corolla. Used Leafs selling for less than 10k is maybe the only case where that isn’t true. But if you’re buying a Tesla you absolutely aren’t doing it to save money. Gasoline here (SoCal) is $3.50/gallon. I pay ¢7.1 per kWh for electricity (yes, a special deal). And you need to account for maintenance savings as well. I can also charge for free at Volta all over the place as well as the office (abet level 1).
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Sep 16, 2020 20:52
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:Isn't the e tron basically a wagon? It actually is. I hadn't looked at it because at £60k it's way out of my budget and completely ineligible for any of the government grants or loans. Ola posted:I wasn't being sarcastic btw, just heard about that car a few hours before you posted so I was trying to milk the moment. Just how big a dog are we talking here? And how often do you make the trip? If you really want a second EV, maybe there are other ways to optimize for dog transport, particularly when it's not that many hours per year. Failing that, there's always rentals. I actually got really excited when it was announced but apart from general concerns about MG build quality it's just too small and the range is too short. The dog is a medium sized collie but once you've put a boot divider in he needs a longer load space to be able to lie down. The Saab is over a meter (as is the E-Tron). I can't find any exact figures for the Enyaq but Skoda have said it's closer in size generally to the Karoq (which is 750cm-ish) than the Kodiaq. Getting a roofbox might be an option but I've heard they have quite a serious impact on range (Bikes on the roof took the Cactus from 67mpg to ~50). knox_harrington posted:Not a proper EV but there's a 3-series Touring PHEV. I had a look and a decent one comes to £38k. The 3 series is on the small size to begin with and the old one lost so much space to batteries you'd be better off with a hatchback. The Passat and Superb start off with more but still end up with the space of a small estate in a large body. Financially I'd be willing to eat the extra fuel cost of a hybrid on long journeys because it's only 4-5 times a year and I do enough local driving that I'd probably make that back on short battery only journeys. But there are no subsidies for plug in hybrids any more in the UK which means I'd have to justify the extra £10k new or £3-4k second hand over an ICE in the same car. I do a lot of childcare related driving while my wife works shifts so going down to just one car and renting for long trips isn't really an option, and having the Saab has been really handy for going to the tip or the DIY store so getting a second smaller EV wouldn't be great either.
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Sep 16, 2020 21:14
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VideoGameVet posted:Gasoline here (SoCal) is $3.50/gallon. I pay ¢7.1 per kWh for electricity (yes, a special deal). And you need to account for maintenance savings as well. Yeah but you don't have to deal with per-year EV-only taxes like lots of other places. Turns out when you're charged $225 + "1%" of your cars value (an extra ~1-200 the first year over ICE equivalent), you have to drive a lot to save money.
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Sep 16, 2020 21:14
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VideoGameVet posted:Gasoline here (SoCal) is $3.50/gallon. I pay ¢7.1 per kWh for electricity (yes, a special deal). And you need to account for maintenance savings as well. Now how much more does it cost to buy an EV vs a comparable ICE vehicle and how much money do you need to save on gas and maintenance to break even? There’s no question that the running costs are lower, but the up front costs are still a good bit higher and the break even is often many years in the future unless you’re driving a lot more than average. YOLOsubmarine fucked around with this message at 21:36 on Sep 16, 2020 |
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Sep 16, 2020 21:31
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Yeep posted:The 3 series is on the small size to begin with and the old one lost so much space to batteries you'd be better off with a hatchback. The Passat and Superb start off with more but still end up with the space of a small estate in a large body. Financially I'd be willing to eat the extra fuel cost of a hybrid on long journeys because it's only 4-5 times a year and I do enough local driving that I'd probably make that back on short battery only journeys. But there are no subsidies for plug in hybrids any more in the UK which means I'd have to justify the extra £10k new or £3-4k second hand over an ICE in the same car. I do a lot of childcare related driving while my wife works shifts so going down to just one car and renting for long trips isn't really an option, and having the Saab has been really handy for going to the tip or the DIY store so getting a second smaller EV wouldn't be great either. Hmm tricky. I think you're building up to saying you want a Cross Turismo https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/elektroauto/porsche-taycan-cross-turismo-2020-daten-fotos-preis/
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Sep 16, 2020 21:36
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knox_harrington posted:Hmm tricky. I think you're building up to saying you want a Cross Turismo https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/elektroauto/porsche-taycan-cross-turismo-2020-daten-fotos-preis/ I mean if I was a rich person I'd have bought a Polestar 2 instead of a Niro, I'd be looking to replace a 3 year old E Class instead of an 11 year old Saab and I'd be on my way to buy an E-Tron right now. If I was a really rich person I'd be doing something like this https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/tesla-model-s-shooting-brake-worlds-quickest-estate-now-completed. In real life what I want is a proper electric V60, or more realistically whatever Skoda build on the ID Space Vizzion platform that VW showed off a couple of years ago and haven't mentioned since.
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Sep 16, 2020 21:47
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For reference, fuel + maintenance savings for me need to make up assuming a new 20k ice car and a 40k bev: 150 / yr 30+ mi range EV-specific tab renewal 75 / yr "Transportation Electrification" fee (30+ mi range EV-specific) 60-200 / yr difference in general vehicle-value tax, projected to 10 yrs 375 / yr assuming 3% simple interest returned on price difference, 600 for the first year waiting for tax credit That's 660/yr of fixed costs for the 10th year and 790 on the 2nd year I'd have to make up before even eating into the the 12.5k effective price difference. Let's assume $3/gal at 32mpg, which is about what I got on my old car, and 10c/kWh and 3.7 mi/kWh. That means with only fuel savings, I'd have to drive 9892 miles per year to break even on just fixed costs. This would be 11840 miles on year two. Obviously this doesn't take any maintenance differences into account, but I'm pretty sure I'm not going to be saving money. The vehicle costs are off slightly just to make the numbers nice and round, but it's probably not enough to matter.
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Sep 16, 2020 21:51
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:Isn't the e tron basically a wagon? It's in-between the Q5 and Q7 for size, except 35mm lower in height than the Q5.
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Sep 16, 2020 21:57
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gwrtheyrn posted:Yeah but you don't have to deal with per-year EV-only taxes like lots of other places. Turns out when you're charged $225 + "1%" of your cars value (an extra ~1-200 the first year over ICE equivalent), you have to drive a lot to save money. WTF? Glad I don't live in those places.
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Sep 16, 2020 22:11
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YOLOsubmarine posted:Now how much more does it cost to buy an EV vs a comparable ICE vehicle and how much money do you need to save on gas and maintenance to break even? Well, I leased because I believe the battery tech will have some dramatic improvements in a few years. So the fed tax break goes to the dealer and the lease wasn't unreasonable. Add to that the $2000 State Incentive (cashback) and the lease (15k mile/year) isn't bad for a car this size. Heck of a step up from the 2000 Toyota Echo. Truth Is, I was going to just get a used eGolf but then I got a job in LA (I live in Carlsbad) and my wife correctly insisted I not use Amtrak as I did for 1/2018 to 2/2020. I needed the range of the Niro EV.
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Sep 16, 2020 22:16
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VideoGameVet posted:WTF? Glad I don't live in those places. Just to be clear, the 1% is not ev-specific, just the cost difference between EV and an equivalent car makes the general registration more expensive. Still sucks
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Sep 16, 2020 22:21
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VideoGameVet posted:Well, I leased because I believe the battery tech will have some dramatic improvements in a few years. So the fed tax break goes to the dealer and the lease wasn't unreasonable. Add to that the $2000 State Incentive (cashback) and the lease (15k mile/year) isn't bad for a car this size. Heck of a step up from the 2000 Toyota Echo. Numbers will be different in the US but I think in the UK you're looking at a £10-12k premium for BEV over an equivalent ICE vehicle. Diesel here is about £1.10/l and overnight charging is £0.05/kWh so the old cactus was 8.5p/mile and the new Niro is 1.4p/mile so based on fuel costs alone you're looking at about 140k miles to break even. VideoGameVet posted:I needed the range of the Niro EV. I've got a friend who relies on on-street parking with no access to a charger and the Niro has got him looking at BEV for the first time because the range is more than he does in a week so he can just fill up at a public charger while shopping at the weekend.
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Sep 16, 2020 22:33
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Yeep posted:I've got a friend who relies on on-street parking with no access to a charger and the Niro has got him looking at BEV for the first time because the range is more than he does in a week so he can just fill up at a public charger while shopping at the weekend. When I read this my immediate reaction was "ugh that sounds awful I can't imagine having to go to a specific location to charge every week", then I remembered gas stations. still sounds awful
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Sep 16, 2020 22:42
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RZA Encryption posted:When I read this my immediate reaction was "ugh that sounds awful I can't imagine having to go to a specific location to charge every week", then I remembered gas stations. still sounds awful In addition to charging at home, I deliberately did my pre-COVID-19 shopping a Harris Teeter near a free level 2 charger and there are free level 2 chargers in the parking lot of the nearby Target and directly in front of a local organic grocery store. This is useful even if you charge at home (like I do), because free is free. My point being: this is a perfectly reasonable approach, provided that all of the following are true:
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Sep 17, 2020 01:13
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Nfcknblvbl posted:I don't believe Tesla discloses how much the Supercharger usage fees helps pay for their equipment. Since there's so many S & X models on the road with free unlimited supercharging, I feel it's safe to believe they're operating those things at a loss. I'd imagine they budget in an expected amount of supercharging in the life of the car, and that basically came off the profit of the car. Those that don't make use of it probably offset that. Or, it's possible they do operate at a loss. Tesla said they don't want superchargers to be a profit center, just cover their own operation.
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Sep 17, 2020 02:17
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Normally there would be an allocation out of the sale price of the car similar to how warranty is handled, but who knows what Tesla does from an accounting perspective.
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Sep 17, 2020 02:54
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Charles posted:It's in-between the Q5 and Q7 for size, except 35mm lower in height than the Q5. That must be measured at the lowest air ride height. Had a loaner Q5 when mine was in the shop and the Q5 was significantly smaller. Etron is closer to the q8 than anything. 
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Sep 17, 2020 05:25
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Shamino posted:That must be measured at the lowest air ride height. Had a loaner Q5 when mine was in the shop and the Q5 was significantly smaller. Etron is closer to the q8 than anything. It's pretty big for sure. I was going off the numbers on Wikipedia. I put the q5/q7/etron side by side on my screen. Perhaps they're not quite right, but yeah it's big is my point.
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Sep 17, 2020 05:29
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Yeep posted:Numbers will be different in the US but I think in the UK you're looking at a £10-12k premium for BEV over an equivalent ICE vehicle. Diesel here is about £1.10/l and overnight charging is £0.05/kWh so the old cactus was 8.5p/mile and the new Niro is 1.4p/mile so based on fuel costs alone you're looking at about 140k miles to break even. Oh. There’s this carpool sticker thing here. The fed rebate thing gives the dealer $7k. Add to that the $2k I get from California and my lease is on a par with the hybrid Niro. My old Toyota runs fine but it also eats from $1k to $2k in repairs annually. To be expected for a car with 267k miles
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Sep 17, 2020 05:46
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YOLOsubmarine posted:Outside of manufactured shortages gas prices in the US are so low that buying an electric is rarely the better financial decision vs buying a used civic or corolla. Used Leafs selling for less than 10k is maybe the only case where that isn’t true. But if you’re buying a Tesla you absolutely aren’t doing it to save money. Until you come to California, we have special gas that is only required in CA so we pay a premium for it. Hence: VideoGameVet posted:Gasoline here (SoCal) is $3.50/gallon. I pay ¢7.1 per kWh for electricity (yes, a special deal). And you need to account for maintenance savings as well. However that is insanely low for power. If I had an electric vehicle to charge in the high season (through October), since I'm already hitting the highest tier power rates I'd be looking at $0.2398 per kWh. VideoGameVet posted:Oh. There’s this carpool sticker thing here. As someone who did La Canada to Aliso Viejo every day for two years, you can just go in the carpool lane and you really won't get a ticket. Even if you do, it's not a moving violation. I've actually met people whose work just covers them as the cost of doing business, as it's ~$500 but no increase in your insurance and you don't need to do traffic school. I only got pulled over once in that time (which I didn't end up having to pay anyway), but $250/year compared to the cost of a new car is a pretty good deal.
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Sep 17, 2020 07:29
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MomJeans420 posted:However that is insanely low for power. If I had an electric vehicle to charge in the high season (through October), since I'm already hitting the highest tier power rates I'd be looking at $0.2398 per kWh. I'm in San Diego and with electricity delivery included my rates range from $0.25328 per kwh during super off-peak hours to $0.49627 per kwh during on-peak hours. I don't get how other people are paying so little.
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Sep 17, 2020 14:47
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How much power do you use per month?
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Sep 17, 2020 14:52
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Wibla posted:How much power do you use per month? Last month I used 303 kwh.
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Sep 17, 2020 15:03
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