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PleasantDirge posted:I would recommend studying m21, it's a great core draft environment without too many bells and whistles to distract you from learning your fundamentals. not a single word in that sentence is correct. m21 was a dogshit format that didn't teach you poo poo but to draft 2 drops, the only fundamental it taught you was to win the die roll.
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Sep 19, 2020 23:46
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Lone Goat posted:or you could just draft them they way they've been drafted the last 4 times they were in the format Oh cool so we agree then, awesome. I feel like you're purposefully misconstruing what I am saying or something.
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Sep 20, 2020 00:02
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I can see reading about M21 being a useful way to learn some stuff like curve and CABS as long as you under no circumstances ever actually have to play it. Like seeing why stuff like the Revitalise and Rise Again strategies aren’t great while the +1/+1 counters one is feels like it gets a lot of fundamental stuff in. And maybe even talking about why it isn’t fun can lead to talking about how these fundamentals change with more decision points and mana sinks and not dogshit synergies and so on. But yes, the main lesson playing it teaches might be that drafting isn’t fun
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Sep 20, 2020 00:07
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SeductiveReasoning posted:Yes, I was doing so much better in M21 draft! I even went 7-2 one time and most were like 3 wins. This likely has a lot to do with your lack of success with Zendikar, by the way. If you are using what you learned in M21 to inform how you are drafting here then you are going to have a really, really bad time. The formats are massively different and how you draft them is a world apart How you get good at limited is by getting good at card evaluation, or learning how to supplement your own evaluation skills with the opinions of others. That kind of stuff comes with time and effort. Limited is the "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" format of magic. Paul Zuvella fucked around with this message at 00:16 on Sep 20, 2020 |
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Sep 20, 2020 00:07
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vegetables posted:I can see reading about M21 being a useful way to learn some stuff like curve and CABS as long as you under no circumstances ever actually have to play it. Like seeing why stuff like the Revitalise and Rise Again strategies aren’t great while the +1/+1 counters one is feels like it gets a lot of fundamental stuff in. And maybe even talking about why it isn’t fun can lead to talking about how these fundamentals change with more decision points and mana sinks and not dogshit synergies and so on. But yes, the main lesson playing it teaches might be that drafting isn’t fun M21 taught you that all build around are traps and that you shouldn't draft black cards or anything that costs more than 4. the reason that Revitalise and Rise Again were bad because they didn't give either of those decks enough tools to not be embarassing and the +1/+1 counter deck was good because every single card in it was good.
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Sep 20, 2020 00:31
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Paul Zuvella posted:This likely has a lot to do with your lack of success with Zendikar, by the way. If you are using what you learned in M21 to inform how you are drafting here then you are going to have a really, really bad time. The formats are massively different and how you draft them is a world apart yea in m21 you just built out your board and if you did that better than your opponent you won. in zendikar aggro is worse and synergy is stronger so you need a more nuanced gameplan. SeductiveReasoning posted:One thing that troubles me much is the disconnect between how I think my draft went and how I perform. The ones I’m excited about I end up being trash, and the ones I think are whatever I end up winning. Clearly the issue lies with me and not the cards haha. one of the hardest parts of learning formats (and improving in general) is separating performance and outcome. there's a lot of variance so you can't always look at the results as an indicator, you have to take your small sample size and extrapolate it into a broader set of theoretical games. definitely install a tracker for arena and post your next draft if you want some pointers
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Sep 20, 2020 00:45
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Paul Zuvella posted:Oh cool so we agree then, awesome. I feel like you're purposefully misconstruing what I am saying or something. That's kind of his bag, it does...something for him bc even if you ignore it he never stops. I wouldn't go back for any amount of money but what I learned as a TA in an ABA classroom has really helped me sort out the oddballs in my life (nothing to do with autistic ppl, you just learn to spot ppl who do things bc reasons)
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Sep 20, 2020 01:25
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How in the world did WotC ever print these split cards? If you get one in a draft pack, you're going to have to rotate the card sideways or tilt your head and then everyone is going to know there's a split card in the pack.
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Sep 20, 2020 01:26
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Aranan posted:How in the world did WotC ever print these split cards? If you get one in a draft pack, you're going to have to rotate the card sideways or tilt your head and then everyone is going to know there's a split card in the pack. you're joking, but that was a legit tell during matches
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Sep 20, 2020 01:58
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Paul Zuvella posted:This likely has a lot to do with your lack of success with Zendikar, by the way. If you are using what you learned in M21 to inform how you are drafting here then you are going to have a really, really bad time. The formats are massively different and how you draft them is a world apart This, incidentally, at the format to format level, draft deck to draft deck level, and game to game level is what makes limited the superior way to play magic, by the way.
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Sep 20, 2020 02:00
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little munchkin posted:you're joking, but that was a legit tell during matches The pen trick but you are turning your hand sideways to make your opponent think you have a trick/removal you dont have
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Sep 20, 2020 03:15
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You think about how omnath happened after everything else that happened this year and your mind just melts. Then you remember it was intended to exist in the same format as Fires of Invention and you really just have to question if they playtest cards at all.
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Sep 20, 2020 04:23
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The powercreep is real. I hadnt played simce 2018ish. Lotsa real 'good' stuff around now.
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Sep 20, 2020 04:27
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FYI Omnath changed from when I playtested with it. I don't recall whether it was better at the time, but it definitely changed as Oko did.
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Sep 20, 2020 04:47
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Paul Zuvella posted:You think about how omnath happened after everything else that happened this year and your mind just melts. At least it is 4 colors, so it doesn't slot into everything. A 4 color card better be good, but this format maybe made that a little too easy.
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Sep 20, 2020 05:12
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wizards consistently gates high power effects behind onerous colored mana requirements but then also hates making any kind of non basic hate playable so those high power effects are trivial to cast. just print blood moon into standard, Jesus Christ.
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Sep 20, 2020 05:12
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If your Lotus Cobra lives then it's basically impossible to be colour screwed, especially for a card that only costs a single mana of each colour involved rather than requiring a heavy commitment.
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Sep 20, 2020 05:17
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Uro's gonna catch a ban right It's just egregious. Omnath alone wouldn't be near as degenerate. sit on my Facebook fucked around with this message at 05:21 on Sep 20, 2020 |
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Sep 20, 2020 05:18
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I wish I loved someone as much as the current Wizards design group loves mana ramp.
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Sep 20, 2020 05:25
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The fact omnath draws a card on ETB for no reason is just incredible.
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Sep 20, 2020 05:31
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No Wave posted:The fact omnath draws a card on ETB for no reason is just incredible. [play design anxiously wringing their hands] but it’s four mana in different colors! What if it doesn’t get value?!
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Sep 20, 2020 05:44
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I’d really love to see them put out a mea culpa, even if it’ll probably end up offensive in some way
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Sep 20, 2020 05:53
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sit on my Facebook posted:Uro's gonna catch a ban right Yeah, in July 2021. Maybe June if things get really ugly.
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Sep 20, 2020 06:01
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sit on my Facebook posted:Uro's gonna catch a ban right how much do bans affect the prices for overly powerful cards, in general? cratering, or a slight decline?
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Sep 20, 2020 06:01
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Traditionally, any card that’s costed more than 3 colors to play has been completely unviable for constructed play unless you’re somehow cheating it in. Not even the most greedy and slow 5CC decks of Lor/Ala standard where you were going turn 4 cryptic into turn 5 cloudthresher into turn 7 cruel ultimatum dared to include Maelstrom Angel for an example. Literally the only previous 5 color card I can think of that saw standard play was Scion of the Ur-Dragon, and that was probably off the back of Dragonstorm during Ravnica/Time Spiral standard. And I might be misremembering that. Progentius saw eternal format play for a while, but that was by cheating it out in some fashion rather than actually hardcasting it for the WWUUBBRRGG cost. Considering how rarely 4 color decks are a thing in standard (usually only when mana bases are absurdly pushed in some fashion, like Khans/BfZ standard), as well as the last time a 4 color card got printed was *checks notes* the original Ravnica block, Omnath slipping through like it did is honestly understandable. The dev team probably assumed it would never be playable just due to the 4 color cost and didn’t think of what would happen if it was actually consistently playable on curve or earlier. the Orb of Zot fucked around with this message at 06:13 on Sep 20, 2020 |
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Sep 20, 2020 06:11
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Captain Invictus posted:curious, how much was teferi selling for before his ban, vs the ~$10 he is now? Depends on if the card sees play in other formats and exactly how inflated in price the card in question was- if a card is banned out of the only format was legal- or just stops seeing play- it's price can completely collapse. Murderous Rider launched at $13 around the release of Eldrane but the decks stopped running it after Theros Beyond Death causing it's value to fall off a cliff. It's price now is closer to $2-3. Meanwhile T3feri sees play in pretty much every other format too, but he's nowhere near the dominant force that was one-half of the Standard pair that dictated what kinds of control decks you got to run in Standard for eighteen months so his price took a steep hit. That said, remember that T3feri is a rare, not a mythic, and his price is a major outlier- he peaked at around $22 or so, but that's extremely high for a card that isn't a Mythic or Precon-only and is still in print. (To put things into perspective, Nissa Who Shakes the World- the other really Standard-dominant Rare Planeswalker during all this time from the same set who has also seen a ton of play, often in the same decks- peaked at roughly $8 and has spent considerably more of her life at the $6-7 range.)
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Sep 20, 2020 06:19
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They printed it into the same set as Lotus Cobra, literally anything is possible.
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Sep 20, 2020 06:20
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Niv-Mizzet Reborn saw a little play not that long ago. It saw a substantial amount of play in both Pioneer and Modern as well. Chromanticore saw a bit of play as well, though admittedly the plan was rarely to cast it. Maelstrom Archangel didn't see play because it's bad, not because it was uncastable. The last major 4c deck was *checks notes* right before the last set of bans in Standard. Tom Clancy is Dead fucked around with this message at 06:27 on Sep 20, 2020 |
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Sep 20, 2020 06:25
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I accidentally did a traditional draft and could use some help. I normally prefer b03, but I'm new to limited and would rather do b01 for the better payouts. I tried to force a UG kicker deck, but never saw a single into the roil and ended up with some mill cards. Forgot to screenshot the p1p1, but I figure I'll be raredrafting mostly when I can. I was kinda tilted with how my deck turned out so I played my first match to "get my 3 losses outta the way." Ended up losing the first game to RW aggro so I cut the mill cards and threw more creatures in to win the next two games for the match. So I was wondering if ya'll could help my with a better game plan on the deck building front and more importantly how I can draft better in the future. p1p2: A lot of streamers/content people are high on roost of drakes. In the future should I not lean so hard into it/kickers or just accept it as a 4 mana 2/2 flier worst case scenario? p1p8: Sentinel gargoyle probably better? p1p12: Stomper VS Zendakon. Both get back played MDFC's, picked the chonky one over the reacher. p2p1: I take the mill rare. The living tempest wheels and i take it p9. What is the correct pick here, the fight land? p2p3: Sweet, the lullmage familiar p2p4: I take the regrowth land over the lovely blue rogue rare. I thought I had been doing a good job of staking my claim in blue, but should I have taken it for signaling purposes? p3p1: Ancient Greenwarden. If cast my Spland I can get it back only as a land from the GY right? B/C Play /= Cast? p3p10: Either creature has gotta be better than what I took https://www.17lands.com/draft/55a3d66d2c3445f89ec901dda59997b6 --------- For the deck itself. I guess cut the two mill rogues and the maddening cacophony and 2 more? I don't think my mill into cheap control magic plan will work too often. https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/3408218 
odinson fucked around with this message at 06:31 on Sep 20, 2020 |
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Sep 20, 2020 06:26
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Roost of Drakes is extremely good. Leaning into it is generally fine, but you should be aware that you are passing two decent blue kicker cards in that same pack. I think it was okay but it's something you have to keep in mind. You get lost in what your deck is trying to do. Playing the underpowered mill cards is not something you can afford to be doing. The overall goal with this deck should be putting some pressure on opponent and then overwhelming them with large stuff/kicker value. Your version is quite light on removal and doesn't have a lot of draw, you're not likely to be able to drag games out long enough they're in danger of decking. p1p5 unsure on bite vs. roilmage here p1p8 Yeah sentinel. Does sort of the same job with kicker for later, you don't care about the cleric type p2p1 Khanli Ambush seems way better than the mill card. Removal is good, removal that you get to play as a land is better. p3p2 I'd probably pick Bubble Snare. We don't have much to do with Stormcaller. p3p6 Might of Murasa is miles better than the rogue. I'd have considered p3p3 Roil Eruption. It's good removal with kicker, we can splash it off our pathway. Definitely if you've picked the Stormcaller.
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Sep 20, 2020 06:57
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standard has been extremely bad for a very long time and we should all stop playing it maybe
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Sep 20, 2020 07:30
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Seeing a lot of Muxus in Bo1 Historic all of a sudden. I don't think Omnath does so good against it.
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Sep 20, 2020 08:07
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odinson posted:https://www.17lands.com/draft/55a3d66d2c3445f89ec901dda59997b6 I pretty much agree with Tom Clancy is Dead, these comments are in addition to theirs: P1P5: I do think Roilmage is correct, there's enough removal in the set I'm not valuing it much higher than synergistic picks. P1P9: I like speculating on Blood Beckoning, it's a kicker spell and we did see a really late black MDFC in P8 and Thwart in P7. P1P10: Two black removal spells this late confirms black is open P2P2: I'm on Rising Riptide, I wouldn't really play Lullmage's Domination outside of UB but I could be wrong P2P4: You probably don't need to worry about signalling when passing to your right. The rare is okay but it's unlikely to draw other drafters into blue. P2P5: Baloth here, it's a better threat and blocker than Diviner P2P8: Nectarpot is underrated, it's like my favourite two drop for UG kicker after the Roilmage. Ascetic is pretty sweet at stabilising too. P3P3: I'm super high on MDFCs but we need more board presence, so I would have picked Risen Riptide or Baloth here. I think Field Research is the right pick given our lack of kicker enablers. P3P5: Relic Amulet is pretty good in bo3, and I think we have enough enablers to make it worthwhile. P3P10: Snarecaster is an okay sideboard card You were right to lean into Roost, but going for the mill stuff was bad. The crab was a good spec but it really needs multiples to be a good win condition, and the Rogues don't mill enough to win. Cuts: Merfolk Windrobber, Ruin Crab, Zulaport Duelist, Maddening Cacophony, Cleric of Chill Depths. I kinda want to play Relic Amulet (and Chilling Trap) to give us some removal, that will give Amulet 12-13 enablers which isn't too bad. Not entirely sure about Lullmage's Domination without mill to enable but it's probably good enough.
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Sep 20, 2020 08:22
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This kind of analysis is super helpful because I have never learned to not be absolutely garbage at drafting.
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Sep 20, 2020 08:38
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People like to tell stories about Combo Winter and Necro Summer and Affinity, but I think we are seeing the first days of one of those seasons where there's an overpowered standard deck that's just completely broken. I know people are like, "You can't call for a ban after 2 days, give it a few months, let people find answers" but like this would not be an acceptable turn four in any standard. Keep in mind this deck was originally supposed to also have Oko and Once Upon a Time in it.  Edit: Lol, this one is even funnier. What even is a play design team? https://twitter.com/OndrejStrasky/status/1307407011718606849/photo/1 Fish Of Doom fucked around with this message at 08:56 on Sep 20, 2020 |
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Sep 20, 2020 08:47
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Lone Goat posted:not a single word in that sentence is correct. THANK YOU
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Sep 20, 2020 10:39
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Jabor posted:If your Lotus Cobra lives then it's basically impossible to be colour screwed, especially for a card that only costs a single mana of each colour involved rather than requiring a heavy commitment. Always shock the snake.
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Sep 20, 2020 10:49
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Is Zareth-san's ninjitsu an ability or an alternate casting cost? By this I mean, can I ninja him from my command zone?
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Sep 20, 2020 11:35
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VictualSquid posted:Is Zareth-san's ninjitsu an ability or an alternate casting cost? By this I mean, can I ninja him from my command zone? {2}{U}{B}, Return an unblocked attacking Rogue you control to its owner’s hand: Put Zareth San, the Trickster from your hand onto the battlefield tapped and attacking.
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Sep 20, 2020 11:45
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I remember the first like two play design sets actually went well and then it was like a sudden drop-off into hell so i feel like an executive somewhere is the real issue rather then any of the grunt workers.
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Sep 20, 2020 13:37
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