|
Running new wire to replace old horrible disaster that I think might have once been a junction box for the triple switch for my bathroom fan/heat/light combo. I keep starting to sketch out what I need and then second guessing myself. We're starting with a junction box up in the attic that has hot, neutral, and ground coming in. Down the wall, there's a Lutron triple switch. Up in the ceiling there's a combo fan/heater/light. I have a spool of 14/3 Romex. I think what I need to do is tie grounds together and pigtail them to a grounding screw in each box, tie neutral (white) wires together in each box separately from neutral, and I've never done it the new way so I'm not sure where to run the black and red wires, which one goes to the switches, which returns to neutral after the switches, etc. Can someone either sketch out or write out what goes where with numbers what needs to go where while I bring myself up to date on residential code?
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2020 03:19
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 21, 2024 02:22 |
|
|
Here's a badly drawn diagram of what you need. 1x14/2 from attic/power source 1x14/2 from switch to F/L/H 1x14/3 from switch to F/L/H. Tie all grounds in each jbox, ground the box if metal (omitted from diagram for clarity) Alternately you can tie all neutrals together in attic jbox, but the NEC prohibition against reidentifying neutrals make that redundant. Hope my bad drafting skills/handwriting are legible.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2020 05:47
|
|
|
Elviscat posted:, but the NEC prohibition against reidentifying neutrals make that redundant. 200.7(C)(1) allows reidentifying white wires that are part of a cable assembly (NM), so one could get away with two 14/2's feeding the HVL.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2020 06:53
|
|
|
Oh, I was way the gently caress overthinking it, I thought I needed to bring 3x 14/3 into the box and tie the neutrals together there as well as in the ceiling unit's electrical box using black and red as hot and switched legs. Thanks! Ground wires still get connected everywhere there's a metal box/etc to be grounded, right?
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2020 07:40
|
|
|
GWBBQ posted:
yep
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2020 14:24
|
|
|
angryrobots posted:Spotted today. As a former commercial electrician, this pendant light leveling method definitely caused an involuntary eye twitch. The old condo we rented had that done to it, and every other unit we could catch a glimpse of through sales records were also knotted up. I don't know if I liked that or the fact that they weren't level better. These have all been sold at least once (the original sale), but most have been sold two or three more times since then. Our old one sold this year. The one exception seems to be someone either opted to never have them installed to save I assume whole dollars, or replaced them. It's the exact same box location.  
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2020 16:06
|
|
|
Jerk McJerkface posted:Just a question, some of my house is old armored cable, I can use that as the ground for smart devices, since they require hot, neutral and ground, right? Googling shows it's ok and it's not ok, so I'm not sure specifically. Electrically it works, though right? Is it actual AC cable and not BX? There are 3 types of spiral wrapped cable. There's the original type that was known by it's trade name, BX, just like all NM is called "Romex". BX isn't mentioned in the book, it's deprecated. BX was a hot and neutral in a spiral wrapped steel covering. The improvement to BX was Armor Clad cable (AC). AC cable had hot and neutral again wrapped in steel, but it also had a dedicated grounding strip, not wire, inside. The improvement to that was Metal Clad cable (MC). The big improvement was a dedicated ground wire inside and the spiral sheath was changed to aluminum. You use the grounding conductor for AC and MC. BX is deprecated. I suppose it would fall under the rules for flex conduit, which is only allows to be used as a grounding path if it's 6 feet or less. There is always the exception to run a single ground wire to those old boxes too.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2020 16:59
|
|
|
Is there any magic for spacing or sizing LED pot lights for a room?
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2020 17:00
|
|
|
KKKLIP ART posted:pot lights Canadian spotted. And yes. You want to determine how many lumens per square foot/meter you want (or foot candles.....there are plenty of calculators and good stating points), figure out how many of those cans it will take, and make sure the the diffusion/angle of those fixtures is going to provide sufficient overlapping light from your ceiling height to the floor/tables. Also, just overdo it by 50% or more and plan on a dimmer.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2020 17:12
|
|
|
Motronic posted:Canadian spotted. USA but I’ve really only heard them called pot lights. This is a retrofit but I wouldn’t mind more lumens and a dimmer. Do they make dimmers for three way switches?
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2020 21:32
|
|
|
KKKLIP ART posted:Do they make dimmers for three way switches? They do. There are several types as well. Which type you'd need to use depends the existing 3-way wiring method you have and how many wires there are. For single dimmer 3-way switching, it can depend on where the switch is in the 3-way wiring method. Basically, it's a mess.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2020 22:17
|
|
|
kid sinister posted:They do. There are several types as well. Which type you'd need to use depends the existing 3-way wiring method you have and how many wires there are. For single dimmer 3-way switching, it can depend on where the switch is in the 3-way wiring method. Existing... 3 way wiring? Like it’s that easy!
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2020 22:20
|
|
|
KKKLIP ART posted:Existing... 3 way wiring? Like it’s that easy! There's like 5 or so ways to do 3 way switching, not all of which are legal anymore since the requirement that all light switch boxes now must have a neutral. Some of those methods will make you scratch your head for awhile. The reason they need neutrals now is because fancy switches need a neutral to power their own electronics for things like 3 way switching over 2 wires, wireless fan control, etc.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2020 22:26
|
|
|
So I found something interesting in my house and I can't really wrap my head around it. Wiring is possibly from 1967 or so. First: fan speed controller with a black AND white wire. Hooked to black and white wire in the gang box. (This is NOT hooked to the fan it's wired to the wrong circuit that is for an outlet? The fan is on a different breaker, but those wires are also in this gangbox) Why this is confuses me. I assumed it was a switch loop and the white was just used as black. But if I connect the 2 wires and flip the breaker it will trip with a short. What in Jesus name is happening here.. I have verified that the wire is energized when breaker 1 is on and off when it is off. The wire other side of the box on breaker 2 (the actual fan) is energized only when breaker 2 is on. The only thing I could possibly think of is hosed up wiring where it's getting hot from spot a in the circuit and then hot from spot b in the circuit on the white wire. tater_salad fucked around with this message at 02:12 on Sep 21, 2020 |
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2020 01:36
|
|
|
I just asked that as an afterthought but of course they do. We also have an "everything is inexplicably hosed" triple switch box that's supposed to have the left switch control one ceiling light, the center control the light in the adjacent stairs, and the third to the porch and driveway light. As far as I can tell, flipping any switch is like pulling a slot machine, including the blinking and eventually going solid or dark on the near light. Next step is to rip out the mystery wiring and just wire the two kitchen lights through new boxes I installed (first box and fixture on the circuit) with 3-way switches because who the gently caress needs a pair of '50s-rear end stained glass fixtures in an 11x10 foot kitchen on separate outlets? the answer, as always, is my dad who spliced into this circuit to run grow lights in the basement, As a treat, I'll post a picture of the bathroom ceiling fixture tomorrow for you to all marvel at in arcane horror.
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2020 10:37
|
|
|
There's a breaker box switch that's simply labeled Garage GFI which gets tripped on a fairly regular basis, but I have no idea what it does. Is this something I should call in an electrician for? I have a GFCI outlet in my garage that feeds my bathroom outlets, and 3 20amp outlets on separate circuits.
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2020 13:55
|
|
|
Bioshuffle posted:There's a breaker box switch that's simply labeled Garage GFI which gets tripped on a fairly regular basis, but I have no idea what it does. Given what you've told us, probably call an electrician. If you want to figure it out for yourself: What is off when the breaker's tripped? If you can figure out what stops working when that breaker is off, you can find where the problem is. This may take two to five hours of your time. It will probably take an electrician ten minutes to two hours to do the same thing. However, you'll be charged for the full hour regardless.
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2020 14:08
|
|
|
Bioshuffle posted:There's a breaker box switch that's simply labeled Garage GFI which gets tripped on a fairly regular basis, but I have no idea what it does. With the breaker off Is anything missing power? You can just leave it off for the time being if there's nothing running to it (Check your sump outlet, any fridges, lights etc). If it's tripping that means it's either grounding somewhere on its' path (wherever it may be) or it' is shorting somewhere on it's path, or the breaker need replacement. It is concerning that your bathroom and garage are on the same circuit. also when you say "3 20 amp outlets on separate circuits" I hope you mean the same breaker but different "legs"
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2020 14:16
|
|
|
Can a 3-way switch be wired to half an outlet, and the other half works with no switch?
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2020 18:35
|
|
|
Jenkl posted:Can a 3-way switch be wired to half an outlet, and the other half works with no switch? Yeah, there's a metal tab to break off to split the outlet.
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2020 18:45
|
|
|
Jenkl posted:Can a 3-way switch be wired to half an outlet, and the other half works with no switch? Guy Axlerod posted:Yeah, there's a metal tab to break off to split the outlet. Only break off the tab on the hot side though.
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2020 20:13
|
|
|
I'm slightly confused as to how a box I have was wired. I blew it up to a 4-gang (so much more room for activities!) and just need to restore this connection to wrap it up. The switch that was attached here used to control an outdoor outlet on my balcony (which is not GFCI, which I feel like I should fix). Box has 6 14/2 Romex coming in, which best I can tell: 1-3: from the bottom, all bussed together, likely the input/source + branches off to other poo poo nearby 4: from the top, off to light fixture A 5: from the top, off to light fixture B 6: from the top, off to outdoor outlet... and it turns out other stuff. Existing toggle switch had unknown purpose when I moved in, and when we finally went to use the outdoor outlet, some neurons clicked and I went to toggle that switch and hooray, the outdoor outlet works now! I then replaced it with a Lutron Caseta switch, and then noticed when I turned off the Caseta switch, the LED string plugged into the outdoor outlet still had a faint glow unless I yanked the FASS on the front of the Caseta, and then it would go completely off. Weird, but sometimes odd poo poo happens with these smart switches, I figured. Didn't recall it happening with the mech switch. Anyways! So, on contestant #6, found that it's black wire goes off and feeds downstream loads / another outlet near my fireplace — so that's plugged into a Wago in the box with the lines from the bottom 3 inputs. The white wire, when I opened the box, was not tied to a neutral, and went to the toggle switch. Maybe it's a traveler? I think this is now frowned upon code-wise, but maybe it was kosher then. Here's the weird part — holding my NCV up to the white wire, it's also reading hot. So... how was the original switch ever suppose to work, if it switched between this white wire, and line? Is it a traveler hitting something downstream? I can toss a toggle switch back in for simplicity sake / testing, but it seems... odd if it's just going to make/break a connection between two already hot conductors. Place was built in 1984, for reference. At least every box has neutrals in it though!
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2020 20:37
|
|
|
Awesome thanks y'all! I had convinced myself it was more complicated than that. Worked perfectly. Hardest part was breaking the tab! Edit: spoke to soon. Seems like switch 1 is acting as a kind of master switch. If it's off, switch 2 does nothing. If it's on, switch 2 can turn on/off the light. Hmmmm.  Edit 2: electric fixeroo. Note to self: actually wire all the wires needed to the switch before posting online asking for help. Jenkl fucked around with this message at 22:50 on Sep 21, 2020 |
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2020 21:03
|
|
|
Jenkl posted:Seems like switch 1 is acting as a kind of master switch. If it's off, switch 2 does nothing. That is the behavior of a 3 way switch that hasn't been wired right. (Or one or both of them are actually just regular single pole switches) The first 3 way switch should have a hot coming in, and 2 travelers going out. The switch basically just switches back and forth between sending the current down one traveler or the other. The second 3 way switch should have 2 travelers coming in and one hot going out, basically it switches from trying to pull current from one traveler or the other. That way if both switches are trying to use the same traveler, the light is on. Flip one switch (doesn't matter which) and now they are trying to each use a differenet traveller and there's no path for the current. Flip one switch (again, either one) and now they are in sync again. Edit: beaten while proofreading
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2020 22:58
|
|
|
Thanks for answering me anyways, appreciate it!
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2020 23:18
|
|
|
movax posted:I'm slightly confused as to how a box I have was wired. I blew it up to a 4-gang (so much more room for activities!) and just need to restore this connection to wrap it up. Well, put in a switch and tested it out... on, circuit tester reports OK. Off, circuit tester reports... open neutral. So I’m beginning to think now the old mechanical switch just sat between there and switched in/out the neutral. With the Lutron switch... I’m not actually sure if it can do that. But more importantly... is this OK by code? Feels like a hazard if it wasn’t a grounded outlet. e: I’m actually confused again now; with a PD-5ANS (Caseta smart switch) installed, turned ON, outlet reports OK. Turned off, outlet reports open neutral. So... how the poo poo is it working when the switch is “on” if it’s not connecting the load wire to neutral? movax fucked around with this message at 03:55 on Sep 22, 2020 |
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2020 03:35
|
|
|
So it's probably a switch leg, neutral is reading hot with the NCV because something is plugged in to one of the outlets, so the neutral is at 120v potential (return from whatevers plugged in" That's not okay and a safety hazard, you should be able to find the box that switch leg goes to and change the switch leg from hot to neutral. E: On closer reading, it sounds like it's not a switch leg, what's hooked up to the other side of the switch? Can we get a picture? Elviscat fucked around with this message at 04:07 on Sep 22, 2020 |
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2020 04:04
|
|
|
Elviscat posted:So it's probably a switch leg, neutral is reading hot with the NCV because something is plugged in to one of the outlets, so the neutral is at 120v potential (return from whatevers plugged in" Yeah, sorry — I figured out a bunch more and I think I at least know what's going on, but not why. I "know" what 5/6 cables coming into the box do — one source, two fixtures, one to the outlet right below the box (95% sure) and one to some other load. At least, that's the way it was wired up when I cracked it open, so pretty confident there. The 6th one is the weird one I'm talking about. My initial assumption was that it was wired to the exterior outlet, because flipping the switch there turned on/off the load out there. I did the following things in the course of loving with it: 1. Black: NC, White: Neutral — unexpectedly, another outlet in my living room stopped working, exterior outlet stopped working. 2. Black: Line, White: Floating — all outlets inside worked as expected, exterior outlet not working. NCV indicated white wire is hot. 3. Black: Line, White: to load terminal of a PD-5ANS-WH switch (that switch connected to line + neutral) — when switch is on, everything reports OK / works. When switch is off, exterior outlet indicates an open neutral. The behavior that clued me in was a LED outdoor lighting string glowing faintly even when the switch was "off". If I only plug in the outlet tester, it goes between "all good" and "open neutral". If I plug in the outlet tester, and the LED string (so, looks like not only half the outlet is switched), the tester goes between "all good" and "all off". I'm hoping there isn't a hosed up scenario where the other outlet in here is getting a neutral from "somewhere" else. I feel like if I tie black to line, and white to neutral, everything will function as expected minus of course the ability to switch the outdoor outlet.
|
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2020 05:25
|
|
|
Yeah, it's just hard to imagine without seeing. Have you tried continuity testing the wires to verify where they go? Or opened up the two outlets? It should be black:load side of switch Neutral:other neutrals in box. Unless it's a switch leg. You can try replicating a normal switch by trying wires together with nuts to see what they do, and if your smart switch is being fucky.
|
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2020 05:31
|
|
|
Elviscat posted:Here's a badly drawn diagram of what you need.  This is what I rigged up to safely touch switches after footnote † became apparent.  I didn't open this up, it was just kind of there like this.  Wires going places and doing things   Somehow I have the fortune to have an exceedingly rare vermiculite insulation that doesn't contain asbestos! If I'm wrong, I'm as good as dead and won't have to deal with the wiring anymore! Exhaust duct from the bathroom fan. I'm betting on that spiral wire being the only actual path to ground.  Oh, did I mention I got a phase to ground shock on my neck when I brushed against the metal cladding on the MC wire? Possibly related to getting 60-70v ground to neutral on either of the upstairs circuits. Yes, upstairs has two circuits, that's it. Nostalgia trip back to the time I was the 30th caller!  Please reassure me that these have something to do with curtain rods and not knob and tube wiring.  Fig. B, in all its glory  Ground just doing its thing outside of the box  The unassuming switch boxes below and left of center. Presumably intended to be gangable, but just kind of stuck in a hole in the wall with the stud behind it chiseled out as needed  Triple switch labeled LOL B, featuring the little ground wire that almost could.  Figure LOL A  Turns out 120V from "god only knows where" is an ungrounded outlet inside a wall in the living room for plugging in Christmas Tree Lights. I currently have that connected to Fig. B - to my room and the entire bathroom and hall disconnected until I can look at it with fresh eyes and while fully awake. My brother, the co-inheritor of the house, has told me I need my own DIY thread.
|
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2020 09:09
|
|
|
GWBBQ posted:My brother, the co-inheritor of the house, has told me I need my own DIY thread. This is truth.
|
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2020 13:36
|
|
|
I will never discourage posters from making threads for their own house of horrors. Welcome to the club.
|
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2020 18:24
|
|
|
I have this pendant globe lamp from the 50s. Want to make sure it’s still cool to use this wiring in this state. It would be a huge pain in the rear end to rewire. I took it apart to show the big PITA. I have sugru and electrical tape. 
|
|
#
?
Sep 23, 2020 00:35
|
|
|
Send it. If it's not actively dangling from that electrical cord, absolutely send it.
|
|
#
?
Sep 23, 2020 00:57
|
|
|
Those plugs are easy enough to fix. Undo the screw on the plug, shorten the cord a tiny bit, put it back together. Make sure it's unplugged while you do this 
|
|
#
?
Sep 23, 2020 01:02
|
|
|
Please provide picture of lamp in action... So we know it works and was umm done right.
|
|
#
?
Sep 23, 2020 01:41
|
|
|
It’s funny I posted in here and was reminded lovingly that a certain partner I live with has an electrical engineering degree
|
|
#
?
Sep 23, 2020 02:14
|
|
|
Electrical engineers are to electricians like computer scientists are to system administrators 
|
|
#
?
Sep 23, 2020 02:17
|
|
|
I won’t say that to him!!!
|
|
#
?
Sep 23, 2020 02:54
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 21, 2024 02:22 |
|
|
cheese eats mouse posted:It’s funny I posted in here and was reminded lovingly that a certain partner I live with has an electrical engineering degree My house was owned by an EE. He cut all the ground wires off of everything he ran, presumably because a working system doesn't need them. However, problems exist, and grounds are a nice way to make the breakers pop, instead of letting the fire do that.
|
|
#
?
Sep 23, 2020 03:55
|
|