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I still think about the Ambassador and what it once was.
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Sep 23, 2020 03:31
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Baby Face's Blaster and the Ullapool Caber are still probably the top examples of a weapon getting nerfed into the ground
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Sep 23, 2020 04:40
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They really should just give the caber like, a 10-20 second recharge. team comtress actually fixes the scout bfb hitbox bug so if they do actually put it in the game they might be able to unnerf the weapon and let you go SONIC SPEED again
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Sep 23, 2020 04:45
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Grapplejack posted:They really should just give the caber like, a 10-20 second recharge. That's not the problem with the BFB, the problem is taking any damage at all pretty much kills your boost meter
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Sep 23, 2020 05:02
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it's unfortunate that Valve nerfed a lot of the bolder sidegrades in the latter years of TF2. LnL+Persian used to be really fun high-risk-high-reward for offense, puff-and-sting with the axe is dead, BFB is dead.
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Sep 23, 2020 05:06
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Sep 23, 2020 05:13
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I was probated so i couldnt comment on it but what the gently caress kind of psycho talk is that soldier is in any way good at long range. His rockets are intentionally designed to take forever to cross those distances and theres falloff which kills their damage. Best case scenario you get about 50 damage and thats landing a direct. Like can you imagine somehow having a roof to roof standoff with a sniper on harvest and trying to outdamage him with *rockets*? What
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Sep 23, 2020 05:35
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drrockso20 posted:Baby Face's Blaster and the Ullapool Caber are still probably the top examples of a weapon getting nerfed into the ground many weapons have been nerfed into the ground the reserve shooter on pyro literally doesn't work anymore and is entirely pointless to equip(a nerf which was completely unneeded because they also changed how airblast worked, anyway, and so its pre-nerf functionality wouldn't have been a problem), and the axetinguisher got completely gutted as well ambassador got murdered while the diamondback, which is the same gun but with less downsides and requiring less skill, is unchanged the flying guillotine combo doesn't exist anymore, the Pretty Boy does completely different stuff than it used to(the extra health was too strong but I desperately miss the no fall damage and they should put that on the winger), the shortstop is like, I don't even loving know, it has like an alt-fire punch now and it completely loving sucks, atomizer isn't passive anymore the sticky jumper can't lay 8 stickies and slam your head into the skybox at 10 billion miles an hour anymore, completely unusable, gently caress the GRU is trash now because heavy isn't allowed to even vaguely keep up with the rest of the team because then he might not suck enough etc., etc. Also, while we're on the subject, remember when they tried giving this treatment to the stock sticky launcher and ended up having to mostly revert it because, holy poo poo, it completely ruined the weapon and resulted in a brief window where comp teams unironically ran demoknight?
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Sep 23, 2020 05:40
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The GRU is still plenty strong btw, you just don't get to totally ignore the drawback if you have a medic glued to your rear end any more
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Sep 23, 2020 05:47
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ArfJason posted:I was probated so i couldnt comment on it but what the gently caress kind of psycho talk is that soldier is in any way good at long range. His rockets are intentionally designed to take forever to cross those distances and theres falloff which kills their damage. Best case scenario you get about 50 damage and thats landing a direct. Like can you imagine somehow having a roof to roof standoff with a sniper on harvest and trying to outdamage him with *rockets*? What There's literally like, 4 weapons in the entire game that have the ability to deal non-trivial damage at that range. You've got the sniper primaries, which is expected because that's his job. You've got the crossbow and the flare guns, which are effective-ish but trickier to aim, fire slowly enough that you can't really spam them and in either case there's a significant trade-off: a medic that is taking long range crossbow potshots isn't actually doing his job, and a pyro with a flare gun has had to give up his shotgun and is thus less effective at close range usually. Then you have the rocket launchers. Are they likely to kill anyone at that range? No, they aren't, but they can definitely annoy them, you can spam them, and they go in a straight line with splash damage. So soldier is the second best class at that range. Is he going to beat a sniper doing that? loving no, of course not, that's sniper's ideal range. But he'll come out on top against anyone else(though again, he's unlikely to actually kill them, but can harass them or force them out of position) because like 5/7 of them can't even shoot back at that range.
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Sep 23, 2020 05:53
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ArfJason posted:I was probated so i couldnt comment on it but what the gently caress kind of psycho talk is that soldier is in any way good at long range. His rockets are intentionally designed to take forever to cross those distances and theres falloff which kills their damage. Best case scenario you get about 50 damage and thats landing a direct. Like can you imagine somehow having a roof to roof standoff with a sniper on harvest and trying to outdamage him with *rockets*? What I do love when people can kid themselves with the Direct Hit like this. lmao yes it's a faster projectile, but do you think you can do that? really? not a lot of people think about the speed of Demo pills, though. subtle, but it's always been helpful. nothing like that pill/Bomber hitbox bullshit lol edit: you can have a better time doing the same poo poo as a Pyro with a Flare Gun because you're rewarded for that poo poo Victory Position fucked around with this message at 06:07 on Sep 23, 2020 |
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Sep 23, 2020 06:04
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ArfJason posted:I was probated so i couldnt comment on it but what the gently caress kind of psycho talk is that soldier is in any way good at long range. His rockets are intentionally designed to take forever to cross those distances and theres falloff which kills their damage. Best case scenario you get about 50 damage and thats landing a direct. Like can you imagine somehow having a roof to roof standoff with a sniper on harvest and trying to outdamage him with *rockets*? What It kinda works with the Cow Mangler since it has unlimited ammo and the charge shot, but yeah that is definitely a suboptimal way to play Soldier
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Sep 23, 2020 06:19
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ArfJason posted:I was probated so i couldnt comment on it but what the gently caress kind of psycho talk is that soldier is in any way good at long range. His rockets are intentionally designed to take forever to cross those distances and theres falloff which kills their damage. Best case scenario you get about 50 damage and thats landing a direct. Like can you imagine somehow having a roof to roof standoff with a sniper on harvest and trying to outdamage him with *rockets*? What The soldier is awful at long range, but so is every single class but the Sniper. Soldier ends up "one of the best" just by the ability to threaten that 50 damage, and take out sentries from a safe distance. If you try to name three classes that are better than soldier at long range, the second will be debatable and the third will be a real stretch. Ditocoaf fucked around with this message at 09:21 on Sep 23, 2020 |
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Sep 23, 2020 09:17
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the fact that soldier is not great at long range (and yes in relative terms he is definitely one of the better classes at long range, just not as good as the class that specializes in only doing that one thing) is kind of irrelevant because his extremely high mobility means that he doesn’t have to sit at long range. If the soldier chooses to remain in the kill zone of a specialist class instead of jumping and bombing them then yeah he dies, but he dies because the player is bad not because the class is bad.
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Sep 23, 2020 09:20
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Not to mention 50 health is a lot for Sniper and unless they have a Medic or Dispenser very close to them odds are good that losing a fat chunk like that(or getting set on fire by a flare) will send them running for the nearest source of health, thus at least briefly stopping them from sniping your team
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Sep 23, 2020 10:13
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When I'm firing long-range lobs it's usually just probing to see if I get a hitsound, in case anyone was running by with very low health or jarated, or on the off-chance that it's a random crit and someone turns a corner into it which ALWAYS deserves a taunt.
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Sep 23, 2020 15:13
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demo to contrast actually can be dangerous at longer ranges - grenades have no damage falloff ever and stickies lose it after a few seconds undetonated. very fond memories back in the mvm launch days taking out clusters of sniperbots with one loch and load round. soldier is probably the most versatile class overall and as such pubstars adore him. but like they've had to nerf demo a million times since launch - have they ever radically changed soldier's core kit? all I can think of is making it so the other teams pyro still gets credit if you suicide while mostly dead lol. he's had some OP weapons over the years but who hasn't. medic then demo are the most broken classes by design. imo they only tried to really hit the demo's power level once and every pub ground to a halt under unbreakable sentry nests as their apex predator was removed.
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Sep 23, 2020 15:29
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CoolCab posted:demo to contrast actually can be dangerous at longer ranges - grenades have no damage falloff ever and stickies lose it after a few seconds undetonated. very fond memories back in the mvm launch days taking out clusters of sniperbots with one loch and load round. quote:soldier is probably the most versatile class overall and as such pubstars adore him. but like they've had to nerf demo a million times since launch - have they ever radically changed soldier's core kit? all I can think of is making it so the other teams pyro still gets credit if you suicide while mostly dead lol. he's had some OP weapons over the years but who hasn't. They haven't nerfed soldier, really, that's the problem. I would strongly argue that they should have. Demo has received substantial nerfs to his core kit, and soldier hasn't, which is why soldier is so unbalanced. I don't think soldier has ever received a nerf to stock, not once. I can think of a couple of nerfs to alternate items but none of them are the "this item is now completely worthless" nerfs that other classes regularly receive. They've only ever given him minor nerfs to things that were obviously overpowered. Black Box healing was reduced but not to the point where it stopped being an amazing casual weapon. The BASE Jumper was nerfed because of the high level air-strafing stuff you could do with it but is functionally the same for anyone who wasn't doing that. The Equalizer got cut in half and then the relevant half had Marked For Death attached to it but is still one of the go-to Soldier melees, highlighting how loving nuts the original Equalizer was. Uh, the Zatoichi lost random crits and half of its health restore, which also hurt demomen. Also the Bison got murdered at some point but it was always a joke anyway. The thing is: all of these items are not only still usable, they're actually still good(except the bison but it was always bad and wasn't even nerfed on purpose). They were only nerfed because they were way, way overpowered, and they were nerfed in a reasonable fashion that took them down to the high end of normal. You look at any other class that has had its alt items nerfed, and you see items that were slightly, or arguably not at all, overpowered being hurled into a volcano and destroyed forever. Like, look at Puff and Sting Pyro. This playstyle had been in the game for years at that point. With the Degreaser, it was arguably, though not necessarily, a little too strong, and the way airblast worked made it a little bit too easy to pull off. The result: The axetinguisher was absolutely annihilated as a viable weapon, the degreaser had its entire gimmick of weapon switch speed gutted to only apply to switching to and from it, and from it had half values(which is a significantly jankier and worse to use version of that mechanic), and airblast was completely changed so that it wasn't even easy to land the combo anymore. One thing slightly overpowered resulted in 3 huge nerfs, one of which was to a core class mechanic. Soldier just does not receive balance changes like other classes.
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Sep 23, 2020 15:58
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It's all academic anyway, since the game is never going to receive any sort of updates again, balance or otherwise.
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Sep 23, 2020 16:02
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Soldier is fair and balanced though. It doesn't need a nerf, because all that stuff you're talking about is stuff that only happens in a vacuum. It's like you're ignoring that rockets have travel time. Soldier does a load of damage, yeah, but it's all hypothetical damage because you can simply move to dodge it. I have never once died to a soldier and thought it was unfair and that I had no options to change the outcome, crits notwithstanding.
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Sep 23, 2020 16:12
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cock hero flux posted:I don't think soldier has ever received a nerf to stock, not once. That's not entirely true, soldier used to carry 36 spare rockets.
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Sep 23, 2020 16:14
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I think that part of the issue might be looking at the game as a pure fragging simulator and not as, you know, an objective-based team game. Soldier's miniscule clip size, which is only a small downside in 1v1s, becomes a huge drawback the moment there's someone else to shoot immediately after the first person he's fighting has retreated. If a soldier runs away from a fight, and then spends 30 seconds grabbing health kits and then rejoining the fight, is exactly as much of a loss for his team (as far as winning the objective goes) as dying, spending a long 15 seconds in the respawn queue, and then 15 seconds getting back to the front line. Actually, it's worse, because he's probably sniping healthpacks that other members of his team could use. But someone who's laser-focused on the DM game might incorrectly consider that to be the soldier "winning", because he didn't actually die.
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Sep 23, 2020 16:21
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Jinh posted:Soldier is fair and balanced though. It doesn't need a nerf, because all that stuff you're talking about is stuff that only happens in a vacuum. It's like you're ignoring that rockets have travel time. Soldier does a load of damage, yeah, but it's all hypothetical damage because you can simply move to dodge it. I have never once died to a soldier and thought it was unfair and that I had no options to change the outcome, crits notwithstanding. You're ignoring the fact that at close range the travel time of a rocket to your location is very often too short for you to move out of its blast radius. Soldier is designed to have to switch to his shotgun or back off when fighting at super close range because of self-damage, but in practice does not actually have to because his health pool is so high and self-damage so low that he can generally kill anyone he feels like killing at that range just by deliberately hitting himself. And in that scenario, the rocket will hit the ground so fast that dodging it is pretty much not going to happen. This is the key issue with him: he's supposed to be not all that good at that range, but is actually quite good, which makes him far too flexible. If you back off outside of that range a little bit to where you can dodge rockets you still have to be significantly better than him in order to kill him, because he has more health than you and you need to consistently dodge or reflect his shots while still dealing effective damage to him yourself, which is harder than just throwing a few rockets in your direction and hoping you gently caress up. If you back up slightly more and you aren't a demoman or sniper then you're now outside the effective range of your own weapon, and while his rockets are now actually easy to dodge you're not going to be able to chew through 200 health with a shotgun or a minigun at that range unless he's completely incompetent, because he can very easily back off to refill his health and reload and then try to reengage you at a range of his choosing. If you are a demoman, then you can actually dominate him at this range as long as the situation prevents him from bombing in at you, which is why demoman ends up being the cornerstone of comp teams: with team support he can actually outfight a soldier at a specific range.
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Sep 23, 2020 16:25
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Baron von Eevl posted:That's not entirely true, soldier used to carry 36 spare rockets. oh that is true. i did forget that, but they also did a similar amount of reserve hit on both grenades and stickies at the same time.
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Sep 23, 2020 16:26
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Wait, what is the airblast change people keep refering to? I thought airblast felt a bit weird since I started playing again but I thought it was just cause it had been a while and I got bad at pyro from being out of practice.
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Sep 23, 2020 16:27
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Jabor posted:I think that part of the issue might be looking at the game as a pure fragging simulator and not as, you know, an objective-based team game. Secondly, it doesn't take him 30 seconds to grab health and rejoin the fight. In any organized team he slams E while reloading and he's back at full health and ammo in like, 5 seconds. Even if he doesn't with the escape plan and gunboats and so forth if he's positioning himself with any intelligence whatsoever he can be at the nearest health in a couple of seconds.
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Sep 23, 2020 16:32
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I don't remember any kind of design doc saying soldier's not supposed to be effective up close. Certainly the demoman was built with that intention though. If you turn a corner, and a soldier is standing right in front of you, you have made a big mistake which you now have time to reflect on and learn from during the next 10 seconds or so.
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Sep 23, 2020 16:33
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If you're presuming that one player has an organized team and the other player doesn't then literally every class is "overpowered" in that scenario. One medium healthpack is not enough to get you back in fighting shape, so then you've got to go to a second one (or camp on the first one, taking yourself out of the fight entirely, until it respawns), unless you're playing on one of the real bad maps that have full healths all over the place for silly reasons.
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Sep 23, 2020 16:35
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Taciturn Tactician posted:Wait, what is the airblast change people keep refering to? I thought airblast felt a bit weird since I started playing again but I thought it was just cause it had been a while and I got bad at pyro from being out of practice. Airblast push forces are more dynamic; they don't reset enemies' momentum completely and the angle of the arc adjusts with the pyro's aim, so you're not guaranteed a predictable arc every time you clip someone with airblast. They also made hit detection less fucky--the air blast hitbox did not rotate along with the pyro, so if you were airblasting while looking parallel to the map's X or Y axis you would cover a different part of your screen than if you were looking at a diagonal. There's probably more to it but that's the gist. Jabor posted:If you're presuming that one player has an organized team and the other player doesn't then literally every class is "overpowered" in that scenario. also, again, you're competing with your teammates (and enemies!) for those. any healthkit within a quick jump of the fight is probably going to have a line.
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Sep 23, 2020 16:36
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Taciturn Tactician posted:Wait, what is the airblast change people keep refering to? I thought airblast felt a bit weird since I started playing again but I thought it was just cause it had been a while and I got bad at pyro from being out of practice. Okay, so, Airblast used to work like getting popped up by a rocket. You would be launched into the air in a predictable fashion, and would have very limited air control while you were up there. If done properly it would reliably pop you up into the air on a very specific trajectory. If you were playing against an experienced pyro he would already being aiming there and you'd get axed or hit with the reserve shooter at the apex of the airblast and die. Currently, it works more like you would expect it to: the force is directly away from the pyro's aim in a straight line and you maintain normal air control. This means that if the pyro is aiming forward or downward, you just get pushed away along the ground rather than popped into the air, and if he's aiming upward you go flying along that line. So doing any of that combo stuff requires a lot more aim because you're no longer able to launch any enemy directly into your crosshair like a clay pigeon. Unfortunately all that combo stuff also got independently nerfed and now sucks anyway and is pointless to try and get good at when you can just use the Panic Attack and do higher DPS with less effort.
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Sep 23, 2020 16:40
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Jabor posted:If you're presuming that one player has an organized team and the other player doesn't then literally every class is "overpowered" in that scenario. One medium healthpack is plenty to get soldier back in fighting shape. It gives him 100 health. Even if he was on the verge of death he's now got enough health to survive a pipe or a full scattergun blast.
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Sep 23, 2020 16:43
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harrygomm fucked around with this message at 00:19 on Jan 27, 2021 |
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Sep 23, 2020 16:43
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cock hero flux posted:One medium healthpack is plenty to get soldier back in fighting shape. It gives him 100 health. Even if he was on the verge of death he's now got enough health to survive a pipe or a full scattergun blast. One of your big complaints is that soldier can dictate range in a 1v1 by bombing in on enemies that prefer to be at a longer range. How the heck is he gonna do that with 125 health? Or even less after burning some of it just to get back from the healthpack to wherever the fight is in a reasonable amount of time?
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Sep 23, 2020 16:46
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harrygomm fucked around with this message at 00:19 on Jan 27, 2021 |
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Sep 23, 2020 16:50
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Jabor posted:One of your big complaints is that soldier can dictate range in a 1v1 by bombing in on enemies that prefer to be at a longer range. It's not a complaint, it's an observation. It wouldn't be a problem if he wasn't also the class with the most versatility in engaging at any range. And 125 is the worst case scenario, assuming he was just about to die, and it still brings him up to a range where he can take hits and deliver hits. He can, in fact, still dictate the range of engagement, but he has to actually sacrifice something for it because he's at half health, unlike normally when it's basically just free. "Soldier has to fight the enemy on even terms if he starts the fight at half health" isn't quite the concession you're making it out to be, though.
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Sep 23, 2020 17:02
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Soldier is a case of a class being able to exploit situational advantage and is well suited for establishing situational advantage, in a game about exploiting situational advantage.
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Sep 23, 2020 17:04
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CoolCab posted:demo to contrast actually can be dangerous at longer ranges - grenades have no damage falloff ever and stickies lose it after a few seconds undetonated. very fond memories back in the mvm launch days taking out clusters of sniperbots with one loch and load round. I remember the initial hub-bub when Demo players took one long look at their grenade launchers and realized they could one-shot a Scout
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Sep 23, 2020 20:36
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This is like a throw back version of this thread with all the balance arguments.
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Sep 23, 2020 21:53
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I don't give a poo poo about balance. Give me my loving Axtinguisher back Valve. And turn sprays back on!
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Sep 23, 2020 22:25
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| # ? May 28, 2024 03:32 |
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Shere posted:I don't give a poo poo about balance. Give me my loving Axtinguisher back Valve. Just to show how out of the loop I've been for years, I played axtinguisher a week ago and one swing of it on a flaming dude and the fire disappeared. Is that how they nerfed it? Cause I hate it.
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Sep 23, 2020 22:47
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