|
resurgam40 posted:I dunno... I've been thinking about this particular quote lately. In my youth, I might have agreed that this is a dangerous ideology too, as written... but that was before I learned that peace, as in the absence of fighting, doesn't really mean everyone's, you know, happy. There are positive and negative applications of peace after all- the absence of tension over the presence of justice, as Dr. King said. I'm with you that the Tiersmen probably aren't good guys, but... when you only have the threat of nuclear magic to ensure peace, and not genuine collaboration between groups balancing their own interests with each others, well, hard not to say Matani has a point here! Gonna tip my hand a little here. The problem is that, once again, this is still the Bronze Age and the ancient rulers that earn the appellation "Great" are warriors and conquerers. Go look back to the conquest where we took the Bastard City. All we did was promise the common folk a better life under Kyros. You quote Dr King, but this is the Bronze Age! We don't have Jesus saying "Blessed are the Meek" or any of the other centuries of egalitarian thought Dr King drew on. Matani is not fighting for the egalitarian freedom of the Tiers, Matani is fighting so the Tiersman elite can continue to be on top. The Vendrien Guard battlecry is "For the queen!", not "For the Tiersmen!" Kyros is bad, but right now we don't have a great alternative because they decided to set the game in the Bronze Age and all our opponents are currently monarchies.
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2020 03:40
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 8, 2024 16:30 |
|
|
The village belongs to Kyros. The villagers belong to Kyros. Neither may be destroyed or otherwise disposed of (such as letting them flee) without a legal cause. Conscript everyone.
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2020 03:42
|
|
|
Enslave and maintain Destroying the town after letting the commanders go would be spectacularly daft anyhow.
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2020 04:02
|
|
|
resurgam40 posted:I dunno... I've been thinking about this particular quote lately. In my youth, I might have agreed that this is a dangerous ideology too, as written... but that was before I learned that peace, as in the absence of fighting, doesn't really mean everyone's, you know, happy. There are positive and negative applications of peace after all- the absence of tension over the presence of justice, as Dr. King said. I'm with you that the Tiersmen probably aren't good guys, but... when you only have the threat of nuclear magic to ensure peace, and not genuine collaboration between groups balancing their own interests with each others, well, hard not to say Matani has a point here! Yeah, exactly. Matani's reasons for her ideas is bullshit, but not the reasoning underneath. Some "peaces" are worth upsetting.While we don't see what life is like in the lands Kyros has successfully subjugated, I think we can safely assume that it's awful. Like "Ancient Sparta if you're a helot and also the Spartans have low yield nukes" awful. That's worth opposing. Even if that fight seems utterly hopeless and all you can hope is the opportunity to spit in their eye before you burn. Slavery can only persist with the consent of the slave. Speaking of which, enslave the lot of them for future Glorious Uprising And Famous Last Stand purposes. I am Kobal2 fucked around with this message at 05:30 on Sep 24, 2020 |
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2020 05:27
|
|
|
Veloxyll posted:Enslave and maintain Its the Iron fuckers that enslave. The choir bois conscript. You'll notice only one has a problem with runaways.
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2020 05:34
|
|
|
Enslave everyone.
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2020 05:37
|
|
|
TheGreatEvilKing posted:Gonna tip my hand a little here. The problem is that, once again, this is still the Bronze Age and the ancient rulers that earn the appellation "Great" are warriors and conquerers. Go look back to the conquest where we took the Bastard City. All we did was promise the common folk a better life under Kyros. You quote Dr King, but this is the Bronze Age! We don't have Jesus saying "Blessed are the Meek" or any of the other centuries of egalitarian thought Dr King drew on. Matani is not fighting for the egalitarian freedom of the Tiers, Matani is fighting so the Tiersman elite can continue to be on top. The Vendrien Guard battlecry is "For the queen!", not "For the Tiersmen!" This is ignoring just how many elements of modern governance are implied to exist within Kyros' regime, including the entire notions of legal precedent, propaganda, etc. The world under Kyros is implied to exist in a state not unlike a Bronze Age version of 1984, rather than just "feudal monarchy but bigger and also the ruler never dies". Things are very "peaceful", so long as nobody rocks the boat. A state of constant fear, where everyone is encouraged to turn in their neighbor for suspected sedition. This is absolutely the kind of "peace" that must be destroyed at all costs, even if the alternative is less than ideal. I sincerely hope we've all learned at this point in human history that treating "less bad" as being the same as "literally the most bad possible" is the actual dangerous notion. Also conscript/enslave the locals. No sense wasting perfectly good resources.
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2020 05:54
|
|
|
Buuuuuurn. Buuuurrrrrrrrrnnnnnn. [Raze] Annoy the chorus. maybe we gain favor from the rebels by giving the villagers a chance to escape that we can twist later, but mostly to annoy the chorus.
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2020 06:00
|
|
|
EclecticTastes posted:This is ignoring just how many elements of modern governance are implied to exist within Kyros' regime, including the entire notions of legal precedent, propaganda, etc. The world under Kyros is implied to exist in a state not unlike a Bronze Age version of 1984, rather than just "feudal monarchy but bigger and also the ruler never dies". Both legal precedent and propaganda were firmly entrenched in iron-age Rome though. And one can read the bronze-age Greek epic poetry as pieces of propaganda (to add uncountable klewos to those named) and find vestiges of a set of legal customs (if not codified).
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2020 06:10
|
|
|
Agricola Frigidus posted:Both legal precedent and propaganda were firmly entrenched in iron-age Rome though. And one can read the bronze-age Greek epic poetry as pieces of propaganda (to add uncountable klewos to those named) and find vestiges of a set of legal customs (if not codified). The concepts may have existed, but they were much more rudimentary than what's presented in Tyranny (which, granted, may have a little to do with there being a literal immortal demigod whose entire existence boils down to "is the law"), and there's a consistent theme of Kyros' regime employing sociopolitical theories that are fairly anachronistic compared to the tech level of the setting. Say what you will about Kyros, but she knows a lot about how to control a populace. There's also some pretty clear incentives to developing those social engineering mechanisms but that gets into mild spoiler territory. In any case, Kyros isn't your run-of-the-mill Alexander the Great despot who just happens to have magical nukes, he has, to refer to a bit of an ancient meme, absolutely read the Evil Overlord List, and fully internalized most of it. Matani is 100% in the right when she says any peace that involves subservience to Kyros is garbage.
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2020 06:23
|
|
|
Enslave and maintain
|
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2020 07:01
|
|
|
Burn it all down I mean, unless there's an implicit massive loss of life in the 'set fires' option it seems to me that burning it all down and letting people run away seems both more moral and more of a pain in the rear end for the archons
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2020 07:50
|
|
|
EclecticTastes posted:The concepts may have existed, but they were much more rudimentary than what's presented in Tyranny (which, granted, may have a little to do with there being a literal immortal demigod whose entire existence boils down to "is the law"), and there's a consistent theme of Kyros' regime employing sociopolitical theories that are fairly anachronistic compared to the tech level of the setting. Say what you will about Kyros, but she knows a lot about how to control a populace. There's also some pretty clear incentives to developing those social engineering mechanisms but that gets into mild spoiler territory. In any case, Kyros isn't your run-of-the-mill Alexander the Great despot who just happens to have magical nukes, he has, to refer to a bit of an ancient meme, absolutely read the Evil Overlord List, and fully internalized most of it. Matani is 100% in the right when she says any peace that involves subservience to Kyros is garbage. The Thirty Tyrants would like a word with you. The idea that people weren't terrified of informants and secret police in antiquity is ludicrous. The Romans and their proscriptions and the aforementioned Thirty Tyrants both used them to extensive effect. Hell, the reason treason is clearly defined in the US Constitution is because monarchs would use it as the term to judge anything they didn't like. As far as propaganda, Kyros the false god is no different than the various claims that the king is anointed by the gods or the son of the god or the pharaoh is god or whatever. Hammurabi claims to be exalted by the gods to.make laws with divine backing. The ancient world was cruel and didn't value human rights, and absolute monarchy encourages the same centralization of power and lack of respect for human rights Kyros displays. Thus Matani and the rebel nobility are not mad because a boot is stomping on a human face, they are mad because they are not wearing the boot. We don't get much about the Queen of Apex, but kings and queens are typically backed by divine right. Kyros just cuts out the middleman.
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2020 07:54
|
|
|
We wasted all this time cleaning up after both armies' fuckups, we just about took this loving town, we are not razing it. Antio you incompetent dumbass. Just erase your only foothold and possible node in a supply line after a river that exterminated like half your army yeah that sounds like a good idea, who the hell taught you strategy my god Preserve, conscript And again, structural factors force us to shoot ourselves in the foot here one way or the other. The people going to the chorus are either gonna be released into the wild, be pissed, and join the rebels, or they're gonna be fodder for a futile offensive. Or, they're gonna be displaced refugees, if we're going the Disfavored route, be insanely pissed, and join the rebels. Either way, they're not tilling the soil, living their lives, and practicing their crafts. They are just making more trouble for us down the line.
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2020 08:19
|
|
|
Here are your two choices, they're both stupid and counterproductive, choose wisely! Or don't! No one is paying attention! You're powerful enough that everyone relies on you to do everything but not powerful enough to have any actual decision making input!
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2020 08:23
|
|
|
Sounds like every job I've ever had.
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2020 08:32
|
|
|
WhiskeyWhiskers posted:Sounds like every job I've ever had. Yeah same
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2020 08:33
|
|
|
TheGreatEvilKing posted:The Thirty Tyrants would like a word with you. Okay, it's basically impossible to get into my full thoughts on Kyros without a ton of spoilers, and dancing around it is making it difficult to get at the points I really want to make, so just suffice it to say until much later in the game, Kyros is way more efficient than anyone in the thread is giving her credit for, and the Matani (and anyone like them) are incapable of the same level of despotism, on a logistical level. It doesn't matter that their motivations are just as selfish, they're still completely correct that living under Kyros, while ostensibly "peaceful", would be far worse than them remaining in power, if only because it's actually possible for them to be overthrown should they go too far (Yes I'm aware that Kyros isn't invincible but that also involves spoilers and is also an extreme edge case which kinda proves my point, if that's what it takes to constitute a threat to his power).
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2020 09:32
|
|
|
Enslave and maintain. Letting everyone go should keep the traps and slaves down to a minimum, I hope.
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2020 10:05
|
|
|
Crane Fist posted:Here are your two choices, they're both stupid and counterproductive, choose wisely! Or don't! No one is paying attention! You're powerful enough that everyone relies on you to do everything but not powerful enough to have any actual decision making input! Eh, I don't feel this one is particularly that conundrum. As the guard captain pointed out - none of them are going to sign up for the armies. So what else would there be? Imprison them and ship in a new populace maybe? But colonialism hasn't been invented yet so eh. Kill or keep are basically the only options.
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2020 10:47
|
|
|
TheGreatEvilKing posted:We don't get much about the Queen of Apex, but kings and queens are typically backed by divine right. Kyros just cuts out the middleman. Kings and queens are not, nor have they ever been backed by divine right and are wholly dependent on the nobility that supports them... up until the point they decide the King is being a Bad King. Ask the Barons of the eponymous revolt (or young Louis XIV's opinion of La Fronde). While most every prominent family of the ancient world claimed descent from this or that god (Alexander the Great repped for Dyonisos ; Julius Cesar fronted Venus... not sure if Pericles claimed god spunk now that I think of it) that has very importantly not the same value or weight (be it cultural or theological) as what we understand today when we speak of the "divine right of kings" - in a monotheistic culture where the One Church wields a very real cudgel against people contesting the One Truth. Even then, the "divine rights of kings", and the absolute monarchy it represents, is a very very recent invention, 17th-18th century, thereabouts, and was a long time in the making which involved slowly eroding the power of the nobility and playing them against the rising merchant/bourgeois classes, and also the rise of new forms of warfare which didn't need warriors any more. Also also the virulent backing of a Catholic Church that was seeing the writing on the wall... many factors, none of which existed in the Ancient world. Medieval and Ancient monarchy was much, *much* more negotiated and its power more distributed ; they had to bow down to customs, traditions, common law, the edicts of previous kings, umpteen layers of negociated charters etc... And when all is said and done, Caesar without the acclaim of his legions is just some dude in a poncy leaf hat, i.e. a very shankable type person. Kyros, however, can nuke his own legions and it don't make him/her/it no nevermind. Thass no good.
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2020 10:54
|
|
|
Crane Fist posted:Here are your two choices, they're both stupid and counterproductive, choose wisely! Or don't! No one is paying attention! You're powerful enough that everyone relies on you to do everything but not powerful enough to have any actual decision making input! A Fatebindet is basically upoer middle management.
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2020 11:21
|
|
|
Veloxyll posted:Eh, I don't feel this one is particularly that conundrum. As the guard captain pointed out - none of them are going to sign up for the armies. So what else would there be? Imprison them and ship in a new populace maybe? But colonialism hasn't been invented yet so eh. Kill or keep are basically the only options. Don't need Age of Sail-era colonialism to do forced resettlement. The Incas did it systematically with "troublesome" subject peoples (it was called 'mitma'), and they were a culture in an early bronze age. Since Tyranny seems to be set in a late bronze age/early iron age, that should be technologically feasible. Whether Kyros would bother making it organizationally feasible I don't know, I'm reading the LP blind.
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2020 12:15
|
|
|
Caustic Soda posted:Don't need Age of Sail-era colonialism to do forced resettlement. The Incas did it systematically with "troublesome" subject peoples (it was called 'mitma'), and they were a culture in an early bronze age. So did the Romans, although they called it "military service". Get a sword and a free ticket to all the way over there so you can hit rebellious people you don't know right in the face, while their non-rebellious people get a sword and a free ticket to your home. It's the circle of hostages, and it binds us aaaaall... guarantees citizenship and land ownership in 20 years too if you don't die too, can you even conceive of a better deal ?!
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2020 12:33
|
|
|
Kobal2 posted:Medieval and Ancient monarchy was much, *much* more negotiated and its power more distributed ; they had to bow down to customs, traditions, common law, the edicts of previous kings, umpteen layers of negociated charters etc... And when all is said and done, Caesar without the acclaim of his legions is just some dude in a poncy leaf hat, i.e. a very shankable type person. Divine Right Monarchy is ancient too, the mandate of heaven existed and China still had its fair share of civil wars, Bronze age Mesopotamia had them (and hierogamy which isn't in the history book for kids) and bronze age Egypt was under a god king and priests as well. Artaxerxes II was more or less a god king and still got in a scrap with his brother Cyrus, the Ceasars were god kings as well, our current knowledge of the Gauls were that they had a ruling class empowered by claims to divine designation and priests (and / or druids, depending on the time period and rise of druidism as a movement) could also be aristocrats and rule without anyone saying anything was odd. The one thing that seems weird to us about that is that we automatically assume that a god is inherently transcendental and less mortal than us instead of a person who can gently caress us up with minimal effort.
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2020 12:44
|
|
|
Preserve and enslave. Letting the villagers run, then razing the village just makes the opposing army harder while also wasting a potential supply route for our army. Seems pretty obvious here.Caustic Soda posted:Don't need Age of Sail-era colonialism to do forced resettlement. The Incas did it systematically with "troublesome" subject peoples (it was called 'mitma'), and they were a culture in an early bronze age. Since Tyranny seems to be set in a late bronze age/early iron age, that should be technologically feasible. Whether Kyros would bother making it organizationally feasible I don't know, I'm reading the LP blind. Also, wanted to ask this earlier but totally forgot: When you moved locations, the game popped up a little "this will take 2 hours" warning. There was also a little "current day/time" clock in the corner of the screen. Does the game actually use this to track your time limit, so you could basically decide "I'm done with this poo poo" and just waste time traveling back and forth, resting in your inn/tent, or some other way until Kyros' nuke goes off? Or is the timer purely story-based where it only actually advances at specific times?
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2020 12:52
|
|
|
There's a real time limit.
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2020 12:54
|
|
|
SIGSEGV posted:Divine Right Monarchy is ancient too, the mandate of heaven existed and China still had its fair share of civil wars. Ehh, they're really not the same concept. Crucially Heaven's Mandate can go unfulfilled by an Emperor and provides others with a justification for usurping the throne. Divine Right has no expectation of the ruler acting holy and all revolt against the king is illegitimate.
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2020 13:10
|
|
|
SIGSEGV posted:Divine Right Monarchy is ancient too, the mandate of heaven existed and China still had its fair share of civil wars, Bronze age Mesopotamia had them (and hierogamy which isn't in the history book for kids) and bronze age Egypt was under a god king and priests as well. Artaxerxes II was more or less a god king and still got in a scrap with his brother Cyrus, the Ceasars were god kings as well, our current knowledge of the Gauls were that they had a ruling class empowered by claims to divine designation and priests (and / or druids, depending on the time period and rise of druidism as a movement) could also be aristocrats and rule without anyone saying anything was odd. Again, I think there's a nuance there, between "rulers claiming godhood/god-proximity in order to shore up their legitimacy" (which, in itself, implies that someone can conceivably question said legitimacy) and what is understood today when we talk of "the divine rights of kings", which is IMO a by-word for "absolute monarchy", ie the king/queen holds every power of government and can do whatever they want without any barrier, limitation or counter-power whatsoever because god says gently caress you that's why. In order to reach a social state where that kind of government is possible and the subjects of the king tacitly accept this, you need a lot of plurigenerational factors and programming to go thataway. But I agree with you that one of those factors is the imagined infallibility and omniscience of divinity or divine designs, and the whole monotheism thing.
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2020 13:11
|
|
|
MagusofStars posted:Does the game actually use this to track your time limit, so you could basically decide "I'm done with this poo poo" and just waste time traveling back and forth, resting in your inn/tent, or some other way until Kyros' nuke goes off? Or is the timer purely story-based where it only actually advances at specific times? Yes, and IIRC there is an achievement for that 
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2020 13:13
|
|
|
Kobal2 posted:Again, I think there's a nuance there, between "rulers claiming godhood/god-proximity in order to shore up their legitimacy" (which, in itself, implies that someone can conceivably question said legitimacy) and what is understood today when we talk of "the divine rights of kings", which is IMO a by-word for "absolute monarchy", ie the king/queen holds every power of government and can do whatever they want without any barrier, limitation or counter-power whatsoever because god says gently caress you that's why. In order to reach a social state where that kind of government is possible and the subjects of the king tacitly accept this, you need a lot of plurigenerational factors and programming to go thataway. Yea I should clarify, I'm referring to the former with the Pharoah or Augustus running around yelling Divi Filius. The overall point again is that Bronze Age societies are by and large lovely and autocratic and being a slave or peasant is probably going to be just as lovely under Queen Vendrien as Kyros. The Matani are right to fight Kyros because Kyros doesn't value their lives. The problem is that refusing to tolerate the evil in your neighbor rhetoric (to me) reads less as a fight for justice and more like rhetoric to justify persecution or aggressive war. Then again, I am a big cynic so make of it what you will. We are still at the very beginning of the game and there will probably be more on this later. Thread beat me to it but the time limit is very real.
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2020 17:13
|
|
|
I will add that while the time limit is real, it's also not a factor unless you are very deliberately loving about. That's why there's an achievement for getting that ending, and also why it's pretty rare: a 1.9% achievement rate at the time of this posting. For every thousand people who have played this game, nineteen have gotten that ending. Of course, I don't know how people who buy the game because hey it's on sale and then never get around to actually playing it are counted in this tally, but since the "clear Act One" achievement has a 31.3% hit rate, I'm guessing not a lot of people put much time into it at all. vv Anyway I say preserve and enslave because of the already brought up issues where letting the people leave and then burning it all down results in an angry displaced populace and no base for us. For those using "stick it to the archons" as justification for their choice, I will remind you that if we don't get this done in the (Doylisticly generous, Watsonly not so much) time limit, everybody in the valley dies. This includes us.
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2020 17:38
|
|
|
Burn it all down The buildings can be replaced.
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2020 23:32
|
|
|
Crane Fist posted:Here are your two choices, they're both stupid and counterproductive, choose wisely! Or don't! No one is paying attention! You're powerful enough that everyone relies on you to do everything but not powerful enough to have any actual decision making input! I’m offended as I usually am in these sorts of games, not in that circumstances constrain one’s choices, but in that it is obvious both choices are stupid and it should at least be an option to persuade these two leaders of that. The edict set a time limit. Burning the village means either delaying the advance to control the fires, or risking an uncontrolled spread that cuts off part of the army from the rest. Enslaving all remaining inhabitants will mean hours of delay. Once the conditions of the edict are met, there will be plenty of time to burn and enslave, but pausing to do either is suicidal. The main opposition to crossing has been dispursed and the remaining army should be sufficient to keep control over the area. But this is why RPGs are usually better than CRPGs, because in the latter you can only make the arguments the game permits.
|
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2020 14:52
|
|
|
Burning the village would be fastest, because we have a whole bunch of people who are really good at throwing fireballs around at our disposal. Seconds for each house.
|
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2020 15:17
|
|
|
Um, the houses look like they're mostly brick and plaster. Does plaster burn? The wooden planks, supports and furniture will probably burn.
|
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2020 15:31
|
|
|
Poil posted:Um, the houses look like they're mostly brick and plaster. Does plaster burn? The wooden planks, supports and furniture will probably burn. Plaster absolutely burns. Quite nicely.
|
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2020 16:34
|
|
|
Deadmeat5150 posted:Plaster absolutely burns. Quite nicely.
|
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2020 17:14
|
|
|
Poil posted:Um, the houses look like they're mostly brick and plaster. Does plaster burn? The wooden planks, supports and furniture will probably burn. Judging by the apparent wood structure, it's probably wattle-and-daub or lathe-and-plaster rather than bricks (IME brick isn't plastered outside, and brick structures don't need wood framing. There are admittedly exceptions). Which burns fine. Even if it is brick, much like actual stone they crack and/or explode just fine if you heat them enough. Just throw enough kindling and/or oil against the walls and stand well back.
|
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2020 19:08
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 8, 2024 16:30 |
|
|
Narsham posted:Enslaving all remaining inhabitants will mean hours of delay. What ? Why ? They're non-combattants, and it's just a few dozen people. Some REMF reserve squadron or other can handle that poo poo. It's not like you need to house, feed and task them. Just brand them so that anybody freedman they encounter for the rest of their lives know they can be tasked with whatever. They're state slaves, not private slaves.
|
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2020 19:16
|
|