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Who will you vote for in 2020? This poll is closed. |
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|---|---|---|---|
| Biden |
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425 | 18.06% |
| Trump |
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105 | 4.46% |
| whoever the Green Party runs |
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307 | 13.05% |
| GOOGLE RON PAUL |
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151 | 6.42% |
| Bernie Sanders |
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346 | 14.70% |
| Stalin |
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246 | 10.45% |
| Satan |
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300 | 12.75% |
| Nobody |
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202 | 8.58% |
| Jess Scarane |
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110 | 4.67% |
| mystery man Brian Carroll of the American Solidarity Party |
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61 | 2.59% |
| Dick Nixon |
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100 | 4.25% |
| Total: | 2089 votes | ||
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Neurolimal posted:Obama was the logical harm reduction candidate, and now he's regularly killing genuinely good options behind the scenes, be it Keith Ellison, Bernie Sanders, or Wildcat Strikes. The kneejerk short-term harm reduction mutated into a long-term cancer upon the system. God, everything moves so fast, I completely forgot that Obama felt the NBA strike had to be stopped right away. Imagine being a former president in such dire times and that's how you choose to use your clout, making sure that basketball games continue uninterrupted by silly social justice claims. Minion of Freya posted:This isn't Ender's Game, refusing the binary choice feels liberating for yourself but unless you can get ~33% of the population to go along with it you still get shot in the balls. "The gate is down." *points feet straight at a gate labeled HOWIE and goes zipping through it*
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Sep 24, 2020 15:19
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punishedkissinger posted:I might consider voting for Biden but im really not sure "I won't for Biden, unless my vote has a chance of affecting the outcome of the election" is, in every meaningful strategic or moral sense, 100% equivalent to just voting for Biden every time, and you're being silly by pretending there's a difference If you're unwilling to let Joe Biden lose, he does not care what you think, and he never will care what you think, because he already has your vote if he ever really needs it.
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Sep 24, 2020 15:20
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Wicked Them Beats posted:Lol at linking Biden's non-apology for Iraq. "I gave Bush the authority to declare war so he wouldn't declare war. I then went on to defend going to war but don't remind people of that I find it embarrassing now. Anyways I'm sorry but I also definitely did the right thing." Listen Jack! Violence is never the answer! Well, unless we are talking about predator drones. Those are just fun to use! I can't possibly be held accountable for that.
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Sep 24, 2020 15:20
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moths posted:Did not expect "vote for the rapist war-enjoyer who built concentration camps" to follow this sentence. Perhaps you didn't expect it because it's a conclusion that takes more than 7.4 seconds of thought Jimbozig posted:I've asked before, but please stop using harm reduction like this. What a completely absurd analogy. A quick google reveals to me that the specific phrase "harm reduction" is generally associated specifically with addiction recovery, and I didn't mean to glibly misuse a phrase typically associated with such a sensitive area. But come the gently caress on. That is not remotely what I'm saying. Sub "harm reduction" for "reducing human misery" sit on my Facebook fucked around with this message at 15:28 on Sep 24, 2020 |
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Sep 24, 2020 15:22
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Edit: doublepost
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Sep 24, 2020 15:24
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There won’t be any reduction in “human misery,” somF, it’ll just barely slow down the breakneck pace of things getting worse—provided, of course, that you’re American, since the Democrats have all but promised to keep up all of our imperialist commitments throughout the world. I’m sorry that this isn’t inspiring as many people on the left as you had hoped.
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Sep 24, 2020 15:29
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DandyLion posted:So we know it happened but we don't know who or how many it happened to? what's your point? we don't technically know the number of surgeries that were performed with no consent; therefore, we cannot talk about this in concrete moral terms? (and then putting in parenthesis to let everyone know that you agree with them)
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Sep 24, 2020 15:29
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rko posted:There won’t be any reduction in “human misery,” somF, it’ll just barely slow down the breakneck pace of things getting worse—provided, of course, that you’re American, since the Democrats have all but promised to keep up all of our imperialist commitments throughout the world. Slowing down the pace of things that would otherwise be getting worse faster is, definitionally, a reduction in misery. Nobody's asking you to be inspired. I know I'm sure as poo poo not inspired, but that's not really one of my critical decision points this time around and I don't really think it should be anybody's.
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Sep 24, 2020 15:31
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Necessary reminder, apparently: as a major backer of the Iraq War, Biden is actually one of the chief causes of human misery in modern history. Unless, of course, you don't think the million Iraqis he helped kill count as human. We'll leave the misery visited on the US via the crime bill aside for now.
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Sep 24, 2020 15:31
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sit on my Facebook posted:Slowing down the pace of things that would otherwise be getting worse faster is, definitionally, a reduction in misery. Nobody's asking you to be inspired. “Nobody’s asking you to be inspired” might as well be the loving motto of the Democratic Party. Write it in Latin and slap it on a seal with, I dunno, a donkey pissing on poor people while licking a cop’s boot. e: The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > 2020 General Election: Nobody’s asking you to be inspired
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Sep 24, 2020 15:32
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Speaking generally, I think a lot of Biden supporters turn off people who might otherwise see things their way because of the scolding. People don't want to hear "You gotta vote for Biden! It's your only choice!"; they want to hear how Biden will be an improvement after Trump. Kicking Trump out on his rear end is great, but it's not enough. If the problems we have are existential (they are) and need fixing now (they do), then we need someone who has the intestinal fortitude to tackle these problems head on, from day one. Is Biden that person? Let's say that looking at his campaign and most of the Dem leadership, I'm not filled with confidence. This SCOTUS vacancy could be an opportunity for Democrats to rally their base and fight as hard as possible - even if they lose. Biden's already called a lid for the day.
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Sep 24, 2020 15:32
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Phone posted:what's your point? we don't technically know the number of surgeries that were performed with no consent; therefore, we cannot talk about this in concrete moral terms? My point is as soon as we start claiming facts without actually knowing the specifics we're no better than those we're railing against who are controlled through misinformation. My parenthetical affirmations are to express my expectation that such heinousness absolutely and unsurprisingly could or did happen under Obama. The difference is I'm not going around using the hysterectomies as 'gotcha' arguments because I (and apparently nobody else here) actually knows the specifics.
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Sep 24, 2020 15:32
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Phone posted:what's your point? we don't technically know the number of surgeries that were performed with no consent; therefore, we cannot talk about this in concrete moral terms? It's pointless pedantry, which seems to be the entire purpose of D&D edit: DandyLion posted:The difference is I'm not going around using the hysterectomies as 'gotcha' arguments because I (and apparently nobody else here) actually knows the specifics. I didn't do this either you sanctimonious dipshit. I pointed out that the dems built concentration camps where human rights were disregarded, which is an objective fact. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Sep 24, 2020 15:32
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F_Shit_Fitzgerald posted:Speaking generally, I think a lot of Biden supporters turn off people who might otherwise see things their way because of the scolding. People don't want to hear "You gotta vote for Biden! It's your only choice!"; they want to hear how Biden will be an improvement after Trump. Kicking Trump out on his rear end is great, but it's not enough. If the problems we have are existential (they are) and need fixing now (they do), then we need someone who has the intestinal fortitude to tackle these problems head on, from day one. I think my core thesis is that there is no "that person" and there never will be. The presidency is not the place to look for the types of structural changes we desperately need.
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Sep 24, 2020 15:34
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punishedkissinger posted:I didn't do this either you sanctimonious dipshit. I pointed out that the dems built concentration camps where human rights were disregarded, which is an objective fact. punishedkissinger posted:Building concentration camps where people have their reproductive organs removed seems pretty fascist. you should probably keep up with the news a little better. Oh really?
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Sep 24, 2020 15:35
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sit on my Facebook posted:I think my core thesis is that there is no "that person" and there never will be. The presidency is not the place to look for the types of structural changes we desperately need. then why is it so imperative they vote the way you want them to
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Sep 24, 2020 15:36
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DandyLion posted:My point is as soon as we start claiming facts without actually knowing the specifics we're no better than those we're railing against who are controlled through misinformation. My parenthetical affirmations are to express my expectation that such heinousness absolutely and unsurprisingly could or did happen under Obama. i guess we all better sit on our hands until our betters gather the statistics and do the analysis for us then let's hope that they don't do anything absurd such as index a column that's supposed to be a datestamp and use it as a alphanumeric data type instead
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Sep 24, 2020 15:36
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CYBEReris posted:then why is it so imperative they vote the way you want them to Because the presidency still matters in a lot of very important ways! There can be a middle ground between "we need a guy who can fix everything" and "who cares who the president is, anyway"
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Sep 24, 2020 15:37
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DandyLion posted:Oh really? Yes, really. If you were reading the topic that would be clear. Or do you think that building concentration camps is not a fascist action?
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Sep 24, 2020 15:37
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sit on my Facebook posted:I think my core thesis is that there is no "that person" and there never will be. The presidency is not the place to look for the types of structural changes we desperately need. I agree. But the president has broad powers to fix some of the things in this godforsaken country that are broken, like the concentration camps, and I have a tough time believing that Biden will be that guy.
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Sep 24, 2020 15:38
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Ultimately the amount of suffering that Biden and Trump will visit upon others is so high as to be virtually indistinguishable from one another so this isnt a particularly rousing argument. Killing 999,000 people instead of 1,000,000 does not actually give one a moral advantage. You've still committed to 999,000 people dying, you don't get to sweep them under the rug and then hang your hat on the thousand who didn't while shrieking at the people pointing at the bulging rug instead.
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Sep 24, 2020 15:38
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Hysterectomies aren't like, getting a tooth pulled. They're not some casual procedure that you do Just In Case. That there's been 20 of them at a [in-concept] temporary holding facility, featuring a shady doctor with a penchant for 'accidentally' removing the wrong ovaries and needing to take both out, should give you cause for comcern on how many of them were Good Surgeries. How often do you think young & able female immigrants need their uterus removed in the short period before they're deported? All this is to say, they were totally yanking organs out without consent in the Obama years.
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Sep 24, 2020 15:40
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Oh Snapple! posted:Ultimately the amount of suffering that Biden and Trump will visit upon others is so high as to be virtually indistinguishable from one another so this isnt a particularly rousing argument. Killing 999,000 people instead of 1,000,000 does not actually give one a moral advantage. You've still committed to 999,000 people dying, you don't get to sweep them under the rug and then hang your hat on the thousand who didn't while shrieking at the people pointing at the bulging rug instead. This type of grossly simplistic analogizing is just the worst part of this thread by a million miles. Voting for Biden isn't "killing 999000 people." Voting for Trump isn't "killing 1mm people." Voting for fewer people dying is actually better. How many fewer people would I have to be voting to die before it was the moral option? 1 vs 1 million? 100 vs 1 million? It's stupid as hell, illuminates nothing, and adds nothing to the discussion.
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Sep 24, 2020 15:42
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Joe Biden isn't a better option than, say, Howie Hawkins. Anyone not voting for Hawkins (or someone else better than Joe Biden) is voting for the Greater Evil.
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Sep 24, 2020 15:45
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punishedkissinger posted:Yes, really. If you were reading the topic that would be clear. Or do you think that building concentration camps is not a fascist action? Concentration camps, sure. Forced hysterectomies (or as you put it specifically the removal of reproductive organs) is likely but I can't get anyone or any report to give me any specifics beyond the summary. Did 1 illegal hysterectomy happen under Obama and 112 under Trump, or is it the reverse or something in between? Your argument is predicated on shades of grey of evil between the two choices, and if we're going down that road why are you so intent on not delineating those very shades? If I've misunderstood you and instead you're claiming that they're both equally evil and neither is worthy then I concede you are correct and I apologize.
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Sep 24, 2020 15:46
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Neurolimal posted:Hysterectomies aren't like, getting a tooth pulled. They're not some casual procedure that you do Just In Case. That there's been 20 of them at a [in-concept] temporary holding facility, featuring a shady doctor with a penchant for 'accidentally' removing the wrong ovaries and needing to take both out, should give you cause for comcern on how many of them were Good Surgeries. How often do you think young & able female immigrants need their uterus removed in the short period before they're deported? I think you'll find that, much like every civilian killed by Obama was ruled a terrorist after the fact, all hysterectomies done from 2014-2016 are deemed consensual.
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Sep 24, 2020 15:46
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Mind_Taker posted:Joe Biden isn't a better option than, say, Howie Hawkins. Anyone not voting for Hawkins (or someone else better than Joe Biden) is voting for the Greater Evil. Except for the whole "can actually theoretically win the election" bit, yeah, I agree
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Sep 24, 2020 15:46
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sit on my Facebook posted:Except for the whole "can actually theoretically win the election" bit, yeah, I agree He can win if people vote for him.
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Sep 24, 2020 15:47
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Mind_Taker posted:He can win if people vote for him. Yeah sure
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Sep 24, 2020 15:48
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Ice would never lose or falsify records. That they keep issuing press releases with "1488" references is coincidence.
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Sep 24, 2020 15:49
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sit on my Facebook posted:Slowing down the pace of things that would otherwise be getting worse faster is, definitionally, a reduction in misery. Nobody's asking you to be inspired. I know I'm sure as poo poo not inspired, but that's not really one of my critical decision points this time around and I don't really think it should be anybody's. I can't believe this. I am shocked! Today of all days to find out that "definitionally" is actually a word  Congrats on finding a new vector of attack for the "...by definition" crowd.
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Sep 24, 2020 15:50
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sit on my Facebook posted:This type of grossly simplistic analogizing is just the worst part of this thread by a million miles. Voting for Biden isn't "killing 999000 people." Voting for Trump isn't "killing 1mm people." Voting for fewer people dying is actually better. How many fewer people would I have to be voting to die before it was the moral option? 1 vs 1 million? 100 vs 1 million? however, you screaming at people who live in swing states (hello, poster from NC here) is definitely lifting the level of discourse and is really illuminating the moral imperative for the guy over his 40 year career who has had a hand in: - the 1994 crime bill - the iraq war - making college loan debt persist through bankruptcy and follow you to your grave - the blockade of yemen at request of saudi arabia - open air slave markets in libya - migrant detention camps - various coups spanning decades in south america it's going to take slightly more evidence that our democracy is at stake other than screaming that the serial plagiarist and liar is the morally imperative choice and that i am required to vote for joe biden.
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Sep 24, 2020 15:52
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Hello darkness my old friend... As an immigrant and as someone who works with undocumented college students what we're seeing here is so familiar. During the Obama years, any claims of abuse of immigrants was met with total skepticism by liberals. "You only have x sources, i need x+10 sources." "Can you prove that this was not an isolated event?" Then with Trump the same liberals flipped to outrage when these stories would appear. Now that Biden is poised to become president, the old skepticism is back. Just look at this very thread as to how this story was treated when it first came out ("you gotta vote Trump out!") And when the 6 year figure was noticed (now the demand is that unless the victims are specially identified and confirmed, it didn't happen. Nevermind that if the women were in ice detention they were 1- undocumented and 2- have long been deported). Never mind that atrocities in the irwin county detention center have been documented for years. As a final note, the people more effective at spreading fascism around the world are all sided with Biden. Bolsonaro is friends with Trump but he's in power because of Obama.
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Sep 24, 2020 15:54
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Arguing that it is impossible to know whether or not ICE let monsters to do monster poo poo under Obama is deeply gross and misses the point of bringing it up at all. That point being that ICE is a terrorist organization that republicans love to enable and democrats have proven to be at best unwilling to contain. The reason that is important is because then any harm reduction argument has to focus on the delta between "being proud about what ICE is doing and increasing their funding" and "ignoring what ICE is doing and increasing their funding and also acting appropriately contrite if they get caught doing terrible poo poo." If I am mistaken please point me out where democratic party is pushing for specific structural reforms of ICE. Normally I am willing to accept compass statements for stuff like this but when it comes to law enforcement I have heard people call for "reform" and then do loving nothing entirely too many times for me to fall for it any more.
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Sep 24, 2020 15:58
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sit on my Facebook posted:Alternatives to electoralism are few and far between, and simply discussing them openly is a great way to get banned for threats of violence (or called a larper). You know this, and every liberal that says "well what else are you gonna do?" knows it.
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Sep 24, 2020 15:59
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sit on my Facebook posted:I guess to me its simply a question of harm-reduction. Which available, credible option accomplishes the most reduction of human misery? So this is something that happens here a lot when anyone with a NoJoe tag pushes back against vote shaming, and like every time before this argument has a massive gaping hole that no one seems to think about because the political horizon is locked to November 3rd 2020 and not a moment after. I've asked this many time in this thread and I'm curious to hear your answer: how does the left fare under 4-12 years of Joe/Kamala and 4+ years of the inevitable reaction? The conservative Democratic establishment, Joe's wing of the party, has more to fear from the left than the GOP does. The American left represents an actual, material risk to their lucrative jobs, social standing, and donor networks, whereas the GOP can fundraise by terrifying fox news grandparents about socialism. Even if you can't recognize that the establishment torpedoed the campaign of an exciting, visionary, popular democratic socialist candidate in favor of Joe Biden, Joe and his circles have made it clear, both in statement and action, that leftists will get nothing. If they're not incredibly incompetent -- and they're not -- one of the top priorities for a Biden administration is going to be shutting out all progressive challengers, to the extent they can, wherever they can. If Joe wins, and especially if that diffuses general progressive sentiment, that's electoral politics lost to the left for probably a generation. Or, until material conditions get so bad we might seriously be looking at a working class revolution. In either case, things are going to get much, much, much worse for the working person. The Democratic Party -- maybe not the whole party, but certainly the conservative establishment -- must suppress the left, because the left is an existential threat. This isn't like Trump vilifying antifa (which is mostly just an aspect of reactionary police violence that will continue under Biden), the Democrats can lock progressives out of positions of power. They've been doing this for a long time (see: Nancy Pelosi's career), and have really ramped it up with media blacklisting, their attacks against the squad, Amy loving McGrath, Kennedy, etc etc. They're not always successful, but holding the presidency puts them in a much better position, especially if most of the liberal sideliners go back to brunch - so to speak - after a Biden win. At any rate, coming in here to try and vote shame people on an internet message board is worthless and nonsensical. An individual vote doesn't matter. Coordinated mass voting matters, and that is the job of a political party. You shouldn't be upset with someone here who has no desire to vote for a racist, war-mongering, ancient rapist dotard. You should be apoplectic at the Democratic party for dragging him into the candidacy and then failing to make his case.
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Sep 24, 2020 16:01
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Minion of Freya posted:This isn't Ender's Game, refusing the binary choice feels liberating for yourself but unless you can get ~33% of the population to go along with it you still get shot in the balls. This isnt the west wing. You're not going to be able to discourse Bude into not being Biden. There is no option here where my rights and safety wont be horrifically compromised.
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Sep 24, 2020 16:07
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Pentecoastal Elites posted:So this is something that happens here a lot when anyone with a NoJoe tag pushes back against vote shaming, and like every time before this argument has a massive gaping hole that no one seems to think about because the political horizon is locked to November 3rd 2020 and not a moment after. I've asked this many time in this thread and I'm curious to hear your answer: how does the left fare under 4-12 years of Joe/Kamala and 4+ years of the inevitable reaction? It is really going to depend on how willing everyone is to keep hammering the point that these same conservative dems' children will be utterly and completely hosed if we do not change our paradigm of living. Everyone's children, really. It will depend on whether or not we can actually bring to light that we are living in a dying paradigm and nobody is going to get out unscathed. Because nobody will get out unscathed and we are in a giant denial about this. We care confronted day after day with a monstrous choice between humanity thriving and 'jobs.' Between markets that come with a built in side dish of atrocities and horrors and us building ourselves up into some sort of new phase of development. It's all right on the tin. These things do not hide themselves. It is going to depend on whether we can break through the denial. Somehow, even at this dark moment, I am sort of hopeful about this. I don't know why. Maybe it's the denial and dread, but that's where I'm at. It is going to depend on whether or not we can drive home the fact, not the notion, but the FACT, that there are things out there that are worth more than money. That all the things we do have to be worth more than money. Edit: That WE are worth more than money. TyroneGoldstein fucked around with this message at 16:38 on Sep 24, 2020 |
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Sep 24, 2020 16:14
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One hundred percent agreed, and that's a very good way to put it IMO. The path we're on, regardless if you're voting for Biden or Trump, has no escape. I don't care if someone here votes for Joe Biden, what I do really care about is people here and everywhere else understanding that this system we're in must be destroyed if we are going to survive as a species, and the first step to that goal is recognizing our political landscape for what it is -- class warfare -- rather than some sort of west wing premise, or the hallow'd traditions of our forefathers, or your favorite TV show, or a set of Responsible Adult Decisions to be made, or whatever.
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Sep 24, 2020 16:19
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Taking a payday loan is a form of harm reduction for the short-term. Most people understand why it's not a solution to the problems leading you to consider choosing that option though.
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Sep 24, 2020 16:29
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