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Squalid posted:Well, maybe somebody who works in municipal planning should be working on how to make curbside charging infrastructure more accessible. Because it sounds like we're going to need it. it would be far better for planners to focus on mass transit, a solution for all and not a select class of wealthy people Anza Borrego posted:Widespread implementation of curbside charging is wildly impractical and will never become reality. Who would pay for it? The cost would be astronomical. i dont think the cost is the big issue here, rather than the amount of charging stations you would need to put all over the place to ensure that folks who have an EV would be able to find an available charging space they can use for a while. or we'd put another burden on the city to do parking enforcement for a special group of EV-only street parking? it would practically beg for vandalism in this political climate. plus the trend in urban planning right now in cities is to reduce parking amenities to encourage people to get out of their cars this also doesn't at all help people who have off-street parking in a privately owned common lot, which is how i think most apartment dwellers park their vehicles. some corporate landlords may be more likely to build charging stations as an middle class attractor, but then there's another class of corporate landlords who are neglectful maintainers who are absolutely not going to invest in this amenity. plus imagine the kinds of crappy apartments you may have lived in, with soggy floors and weedy pool decks - and then a sparking, spider-ridden charging station... KozmoNaut posted:How then do you propose that apartment dwellers without assigned parking charge their electric cars? simple, there would be a section of EV charging spots which are always occupied by people who live closest to them parking their ICE vehicles there. or some guy who has an EV but works from home so his car never leaves the spot Mr. Fall Down Terror fucked around with this message at 14:09 on Sep 25, 2020 |
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Sep 25, 2020 13:57
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I don't know that much about electric cars, but once you have a 240V outlet, is the charger on top of that expensive to install/difficult to move? Or is having outlets everywhere the main logistically challenging part?
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Sep 25, 2020 16:06
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I still remember an old book about future stuff where the proposed design was automated battery switching stations instead of gas stations.
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Sep 25, 2020 16:07
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The charger is pretty much just a cable with electric cars, no? So having the outlet in a convenient location would be the main challenge.
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Sep 25, 2020 16:15
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Ghost Leviathan posted:I still remember an old book about future stuff where the proposed design was automated battery switching stations instead of gas stations. Tesla took money for demonstrating this capability and then never deployed it in public.
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Sep 25, 2020 16:17
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There isn't really "tech" in this per se but uh, someone has invented pants. https://www.workwonnies.com/?fbclid=IwAR0jFcHi78k50pei7zktc6qJlJEAPfSal926etbCYRV7Sf-HztBXfVo9eUg "USE THE FLAP"
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Sep 25, 2020 16:19
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Fame Douglas posted:The charger is pretty much just a cable with electric cars, no? So having the outlet in a convenient location would be the main challenge. There are portable chargers that some people carry, but they’re for like staying overnight at a relative’s house, not charging on the street. Platystemon fucked around with this message at 16:28 on Sep 25, 2020 |
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Sep 25, 2020 16:21
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMxB7zA-e4Y electric car chargers are a big empty box, all the charging electronics are in the car.
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Sep 25, 2020 16:21
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Cicero posted:I don't know that much about electric cars, but once you have a 240V outlet, is the charger on top of that expensive to install/difficult to move? Or is having outlets everywhere the main logistically challenging part? You need more than "a 240v outlet" for any sort of charging in a reasonable time frame. You need a 40 amp, and very often two of them. It's a lot of cable, and a lot of places don't really have an extra 80 amps available. Many older apartments are on 60 amp service (for the entire unit). Many older homes are on 100 amp service. So installing those outlets can come at a very significant cost.
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Sep 25, 2020 16:37
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Cicero posted:I don't know that much about electric cars, but once you have a 240V outlet, is the charger on top of that expensive to install/difficult to move? Or is having outlets everywhere the main logistically challenging part? they're pretty substantial outlets on a stronger line than normal. not too complicated, but the problem is putting enough of them around for public use. if you have a house you can just have one or two installed, and then you can personally manage the space and parking situation to make sure that your vehicle always has access to an outlet. sucks if you live in an apartment and you pull up with 10% battery only to discover someone parked a moving van in the last available charging space Ghost Leviathan posted:I still remember an old book about future stuff where the proposed design was automated battery switching stations instead of gas stations. that's the ideal but it comes with its own challenges. where are all these batteries being stored/charged? how do we move them about on the racks? a gas station can easily fuel hundreds of vehicles an hour, can a battery station of similar size swap hundreds of batteries an hour? can it even store hundreds of batteries on site? e: are there standardized batteries across manufacturers? unleaded gas goes in tons of different kinds of vehicles. what if you pull up to the station and they've got plenty of nissan batteries but no teslas? Mr. Fall Down Terror fucked around with this message at 17:38 on Sep 25, 2020 |
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Sep 25, 2020 17:32
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luxury handset posted:that's the ideal but it comes with its own challenges. where are all these batteries being stored/charged? how do we move them about on the racks? a gas station can easily fuel hundreds of vehicles an hour, can a battery station of similar size swap hundreds of batteries an hour? can it even store hundreds of batteries on site?
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Sep 25, 2020 17:40
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There's relatively unobtrusive ways to expand charger availability, eg in London street lamps are having charging ports added to them I'm sure that specific solution probably doesn't work for American suburbs, but it shows that there's options beyond 'plug in to your house'.
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Sep 25, 2020 17:56
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blunt posted:There's relatively unobtrusive ways to expand charger availability, eg in London street lamps are having charging ports added to them another problem with this solution is that it expands ease of use to electric vehicles in places which have the highest share of pedestrian mode and thus the least need for personal vehicles e: gently caress if the cables are $200 each i hope they lock to the outlet on both ends lmao
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Sep 25, 2020 17:59
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KozmoNaut posted:How then do you propose that apartment dwellers without assigned parking charge their electric cars? We've got two charging stations per 12-story tower now. You charge up when one of them is available and then lol, try and find parking an hour after you (and everyone else) get home from work.
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Sep 25, 2020 18:05
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luxury handset posted:e: gently caress if the cables are $200 each i hope they lock to the outlet on both ends lmao no lock will stop a methed up guy on his quest for copper
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Sep 25, 2020 18:09
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Really i can see those getting vandalized more than anything because lol gently caress the rich.
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Sep 25, 2020 18:11
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irpoweroutlet posted:no lock will stop a methed up guy on his quest for copper * Copper-clad steel; no market value * They put that on every utility pole now.
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Sep 25, 2020 18:14
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What the gently caress is up with the lovely Squalid trolling. Evilweasel already summed it up - "General Counsel leaving" times 3 is a loving red flag. Same with how CAO and CFO keep leaving the company. Same with how they filed a notice stating that D&O insurance would not be renewed because the rates they were being offered were so high that it wouldn't make sense, so they just let Musk pay for it himself. These are just the most obvious red flags that should tell you something is awry. This is without going in to the numerous other problems listed by others, most of all excasterbated by how incompetent Musk is as a CEO and in general, human being.
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Sep 25, 2020 18:32
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refleks posted:What the gently caress is up with the lovely Squalid trolling. Can you provide more detail on the D&O insurance notice? I haven’t heard about this before Weatherman posted:You said you're a numbers guy, but in pretty much every post you've made since then you've said you don't understand this number or that number. What's going on. I’m not a professional accountant. I didn’t study finance. I don’t consider myself qualified to analyze a company’s financials in any detail. That said, if a professional has an analysis that is critical of tesla I would like to read it. But I’m not really interested in narratives or personality, except in the most extreme cases when it amounts to criminal negligence or something. This is why I’ve been strict about having sources for the things I say. Anybody can go and look at what teslas operating profit margin is. It’s right there in their financials. If you’re curious about their technology advantages, you can loving look at the parts yourself. You know like, it’s not a secret. There are advantages are well known and acknowledged by their competitors. If you’re really obsessive, you can get day by day updates on the progress of their new factories. They just started pouring the foundations at the Austin factory yesterday. If you’re someone who thinks Tesla is never going to grow beyond a niche automaker, it’s sort of hard to square that with all their massive efforts they’re putting into scaling up production right now. Don’t get me wrong tesla is not historically a profitable company. In its entire history it’s only had 4 quarters that were profitable. So if you think there’s any evidence that they’re hiding unsold stock, or they are manipulating their financials, i’d be interested in hearing about it. Because those are things that make sense to me. I’m not going to give you the analysis because I don’t really feel qualified to do it myself but if you have it I’d love to see it. I have a lot more at stake here than just my pride which is why I’m actually putting myself out here despite the fact that simply talking about this subject clearly pisses a lot of people off.
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Sep 25, 2020 20:56
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Squalid posted:Can you provide more detail on the D&O insurance notice? I haven’t heard about this before Just google Tesla D&O insurance and 10-K: Tesla determined not to renew its directors and officers liability insurance policy for the 2019-2020 year due to disproportionately high premiums quoted by insurance companies. Instead, Elon Musk agreed with Tesla to personally provide coverage substantially equivalent to such a policy for a one-year period, and the other members of the Board are third-party beneficiaries thereof. The Board concluded that because such arrangement is governed by a binding agreement with Tesla as to which Mr. Musk does not have unilateral discretion to perform, and is intended to replace an ordinary course insurance policy, it would not impair the independent judgment of the other members of the Board. Two-fold problem: 1) High fees on insurance premiums means there is a high risk associated with what you are trying to insure. In the case where the premiums get "disproportionately high", it's a polite way of insurance companies telling you to get hosed or pay the entire sum you are trying to insure up front, because you are a dumbass with something risky as poo poo. In the case of D&O insurance you are covering the expense a director (or board) of a company might endure if they get sued when carrying out the responsibilities of their positions (Note: Most exclude fraud etc. lawsuits). High premiums on this type of insurance means insurance companies figure there is a high probability for the company and/or its directors to land in legal trouble. 2) When foregoing a regular D&O insurance, and relying on Ol' Musky to indemnify them if poo poo goes south, they have also completely ruined the oversight a board is supposed to exercise on the executive (let's just disregard that the Tesla board does not do that anyway, but in a sane company). Lets say Elon Musk does something so egregiously illegal and ruinous to the company like falsely misleading the markets about a financing deal to take the company private and he should be fired. Why would a board, that is being "insured" by Elon and his ability to pay and cover their costs, ever oust him?
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Sep 25, 2020 21:15
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Squalid posted:I’m not a professional accountant. I didn’t study finance. I don’t consider myself qualified to analyze a company’s financials in any detail..................Anybody can go and look at what teslas operating profit margin is. It’s right there in their financials. Sigh. Okay, you're so close to understanding that those numbers that seem really obvious to you just might not mean what you think they mean.
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Sep 25, 2020 22:15
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Hot-swapped batteries, like those propane tanks for grills. Gas stations just become full-service and replace some pumps with a storage/charging shed. No I don't know the average thruput of a gastation, but I assume if you divide it equally by 24 hours...
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Sep 25, 2020 22:25
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HootTheOwl posted:Hot-swapped batteries, like those propane tanks for grills. Yeah, you had me going for a minute there.
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Sep 25, 2020 22:38
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The mechanical nature of making a batter swapping station would be pretty insane. I mean the way to do it would be to have a feature on the car that makes the battery more accessible in the travel up to the station, because otherwise the batter would have to be directly under the car, or somewhere it can be slid out or pulled downwards. Youd have a conveyor under each car so the batter could be rolled away and a nw one put on, However you need to bury the conveyors or have the batteries diverted downwards to have cars in a line. It isnt impossible but to match 1/10th the speed of a gas station fillup would be extremely costly. Basically youd have to have a giant battery back in the back of the car so a crane  could pick it up, and seamlessly disconnect the battery assembly out without breaking it or the car its a loving mess that would cost like 5-15x more than a g station does.
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Sep 25, 2020 22:42
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This seems all too complicated, I sense a startup opportunity. Let's design and market an electric car where the battery would be designed to be hot swapped easily, to the point it would be faster to battery swap than fueling up at a gas station.
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Sep 25, 2020 22:54
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Why didn't hydrogen cars go anywhere? Was it safety, energy density, cost or something else? We're starting to get hydrogen trains at least, so that's nice.
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Sep 25, 2020 22:57
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Jan posted:This seems all too complicated, I sense a startup opportunity. Let's design and market an electric car where the battery would be designed to be hot swapped easily, to the point it would be faster to battery swap than fueling up at a gas station. What if we just put Qi wireless charging into the road itself, and you needed a subscription to drive?
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Sep 25, 2020 23:00
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blunt posted:Why didn't hydrogen cars go anywhere? Was it safety, energy density, cost or something else? Storage capacity problems, mostly.
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Sep 25, 2020 23:01
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Been on a deadline today and am a little behind on the discussion. Thanks to Luxury Handset for coming in with some solid understanding of how the public realm works.KozmoNaut posted:How then do you propose that apartment dwellers without assigned parking charge their electric cars? Apartment properties will have to do it on their own sites at their own cost, and not in the public realm. Private Speech posted:I'm curious if some decades down the line this post becomes one of those "the idea of widespread ownership of computers is ridiculous" kind of things. Things in people’s homes == the public realm You are also handwaving away the staggering cost of both installation and maintenance. Electrical infrastructure is EXPENSIVE. I work in the built environment with a focus on the public realm. The politics and zoning overlays are already very complicated when it comes to utilities in the public ROW. In some suburban areas it would be less difficult, but in urban areas the physical constraints of existing infrastructure can become prohibitive. Add to this the rollercoaster of public funding due to economic cycles and you have a real cluster on your hands. Also LOL that apartment owners will gladly pay for it. Haven’t worked much in development, have you? blunt posted:There's relatively unobtrusive ways to expand charger availability, eg in London street lamps are having charging ports added to them This is an interesting approach; leveraging existing infrastructure would be key in implementing it, but it requires an investment in infrastructure, and the US is not great about that. Anza Borrego fucked around with this message at 23:12 on Sep 25, 2020 |
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Sep 25, 2020 23:09
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Jan posted:This seems all too complicated, I sense a startup opportunity. Let's design and market an electric car where the battery would be designed to be hot swapped easily, to the point it would be faster to battery swap than fueling up at a gas station. The idea of having power packs that work basically like plug in gas tanks makes a lot of sense for like little fleet vehicles in an installation or something though.
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Sep 25, 2020 23:38
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refleks posted:Just google Tesla D&O insurance and 10-K: 3) The overwhelmingly most common situation you need D&O insurance is when the company goes bankrupt, and Elon is leveraged to the hilt on Tesla stock and will be broke in that situation. If the company isn’t bankrupt it will usually indemnify the directors itself, but can’t when it’s in Chapter 11.
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Sep 25, 2020 23:42
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I read something about testing hot-swap batteries somewhere in Israel maybe? It was a few years ago and I never heard follow-up so I assume it was a disaster.
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Sep 25, 2020 23:48
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Motronic posted:You need more than "a 240v outlet" for any sort of charging in a reasonable time frame. You need a 40 amp, and very often two of them. It's a lot of cable, and a lot of places don't really have an extra 80 amps available. Many older apartments are on 60 amp service (for the entire unit). Many older homes are on 100 amp service. So installing those outlets can come at a very significant cost. This isn't true for a lot of usages. I live in a 12 unit apartment building, I have a Volt and there are 3 Teslas in the building. The electric car people kick in extra on the power bill since the garage outlets aren't individually metered and charge off the ordinary 20A breaker 120V garage outlets. It's perfectly fine for city commuting. The only problems we've ever had with it was when Tesla #2 was added and a breaker tripped when three cars happened to all be charging at the same time, so we assigned days to people and had no problems since. This wouldn't work in a giant building, but giant buildings also have more resources to throw at fancier charging solutions anyway.
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Sep 26, 2020 00:07
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Was my Tesla shitpost too subtle or have we already forgotten? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5V0vL3nnHY When even Tesla abandons an idea because it's not commercially viable, that idea has a very long way to go.
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Sep 26, 2020 01:20
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thank you. this finally was some useful and interesting information. The kind that keeps me coming back to this forum. Looking into this a bit further insurers seem to regard Musk as "uninsurable," lol. That is certainly a personal detail that's relevant. However at least in part as a result of a backlash from large institutional investors, it does seem like Tesla is moving away from this arrangement. Here is the most recent update i could find. The deal with Musk was changed so that it would only last 90 days while the company searched for new insurance. That was over 90 days ago, so look out for more details about Tesla's B&O insurance coming out in the near future. moths posted:I read something about testing hot-swap batteries somewhere in Israel maybe? It was a few years ago and I never heard follow-up so I assume it was a disaster. Tesla trialed swapping batteries in california but the process quickly proved to be unpopular and was canned in short order. Improvements in charging times and more extensive charging infrastructure have since rendered unnecessary. Battery swapping remains technically possible in most tesla's as far as I am aware, however the changes in the vehicle architecture announced on battery day will render the battery no longer swappable, and the idea will henceforth be abandoned by Tesla.
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Sep 26, 2020 01:28
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This is vaguely related to Tesla talk, but here's an article that brings up the fact that pedestrian deaths from cars are actually going up. Systemic racism, capitalism, and lovely urban planning mix in the ugliest way: https://www.curbed.com/2020/9/3/21419149/pedestrian-safety-deaths-angie-schmitt We definitely need to be prioritizing public transit more.
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Sep 26, 2020 01:52
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Squalid posted:thank you. this finally was some useful and interesting information. The kind that keeps me coming back to this forum. Looking into this a bit further insurers seem to regard Musk as "uninsurable," lol. That is certainly a personal detail that's relevant. However at least in part as a result of a backlash from large institutional investors, it does seem like Tesla is moving away from this arrangement. Here is the most recent update i could find. The deal with Musk was changed so that it would only last 90 days while the company searched for new insurance. That was over 90 days ago, so look out for more details about Tesla's B&O insurance coming out in the near future. lol, assuming you aren't just trolling I don't think anyone in this forum has a chance of getting through to you. The board of directors - the people who are supposed to strategically guide & advise the company - are uninsurable to the point that Musk had to pinky swear to just be directly liable. The main biglaw lawyer dude who's supposed to make sure all the legal stuff is ok quit, and then the lawyer after him, and the lawyer after him, all within a year. These are not signs of a healthy, thriving company.
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Sep 26, 2020 02:08
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Tesla is so innovative that they found a way to make the suspension break in a way that would horrify traditional manufacturers.
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Sep 26, 2020 04:49
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On a mild tangent, Going Under is out, and it loving rules. Dungeons made up of the offices of failed startups (the first one is called Joblin), combat involving smacking enemies with keyboards and yoga balls, treasure rooms that are bathrooms with 45-degree angled toilets, charging enemies in tiny cars that telegraph their attacks by dropping map pins into the room, and a vampire shopkeeper called the Hauntrepeneur.
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Sep 26, 2020 05:48
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