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Hodgepodge posted:like i think adam and eve have specific numerological significance in hebrew as well i guess I used to post on a forum with a Turkish guy who was very convinced Turkish was the perfect language and had been spoken in a world-spanning empire 10.000 years ago, Indo-European languages were conlangs invented by the church for some reason. He was also big into numerology.
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Sep 24, 2020 06:44
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The most important thing for a eunuch to do is rise in the ranks of the local Satanist coven as fast as possible to the point you can use “dark healing” and grow that poo poo back before it’s too late
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Sep 24, 2020 06:48
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Grevling posted:Turkish guy who was very convinced Turkish was the perfect language news at 11
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Sep 24, 2020 07:19
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The Greeks were long-time practitioners of isopsephy at the time of transcribing the Bible - they didn't have a separate number system, they simply used the letters of the alphabet to stand in for values, so letters and numbers were intrinsically linked in their minds, and because they also loved logic, which can be expressed as math, and they also on top of that loved math because it's also logic, they probably saw math as a kind of underlying foundation of the world. So they developed what they called isopsephy, a balance count, as a kind of rhetorical device where they would write things that would reveal a 'hidden' meaning or poetic symmetry when alternately 'read' as the number values represented by those letters. There's a good amount of evidence that this kind of rhetorical device was employed in parts of the Bible (but none that I'm aware of that suggest the entire whole is itself a cipher) such as the famous number of the beast, "Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six." - the specific word for 'count' used in the original Greek is psephisato, and it's been interpreted that this phrase is an explicit instruction to use isopsephy "let him that hath understanding count" to reveal the identity of the man foretold, in the same manner that the Greeks used this technique to write poems outside of the Bible. Whether or not they ever intended to hide a kind of sacred knowledge in the Bible through this method rather than just using it for rhetorical flourish or obfuscate the bits where they dunk on contemporary political figures is a complete mystery though. The Hebrews had a very similar system, called gematria, which it has also been suggested they used to encode things into the Tanakh but it's a lot trickier as they seemed to have spent a lot more time in using the system explicitly as a cipher rather than a standardised poetic way (the same word is also used to refer to actual letter ciphers as well), so there's multiple different systems for how to transform words or sentences into the 'revealed' number. IMO, it's much more likely they spent time hiding sacred knowledge in the Tanakh than the Greeks did in the Bible simply because of this difference - the Greeks expected people to solve isopsephy puzzles because there was no hidden element to them other than understanding they were there, but the gematria seems to have been intended to be more a revelatory aspect, where you had to know how to look before looking.
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Sep 24, 2020 07:36
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Turkey is split between old people(and some young ultranationalists) who learned about the Sun Language theory and believe it fervently, and people who have brainwashed themselves into thinking that this was never taught in Turkish schools and is just a slander invented by foreigners to demean Ataturk and the Turkish nation.
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Sep 24, 2020 07:39
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Zedhe Khoja posted:Turkey is split between old people(and some young ultranationalists) who learned about the Sun Language theory and believe it fervently, and people who have brainwashed themselves into thinking that this was never taught in Turkish schools and is just a slander invented by foreigners to demean Ataturk and the Turkish nation. knew a guy who thought so'maali was the original lanague. quote:
so far i've heard that Tamil, Sanskrit,, Arabic, Turkic, Hebrew, Greek, Chinese, Egyptian Korean, Kikongo Somali, Swedish, English (only King James Version) were all the original langagues. PawParole has issued a correction as of 08:17 on Sep 24, 2020 |
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Sep 24, 2020 08:11
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I guess what I find interesting and exotic about ancient Greek and Hebrew numerology is that from what understand they require some basic assumptions, for one that a letter doesn't just represent a sound in the language and is both more or less arbitrary, for example the Alpha was based on the Phoenician letter 'Aleph which means bull and the letter originally looked like an oxhead, and subject to change over time, it equals that sound. This is something that would always piss off the professor when I took a basic linguistics class, he would repeat over and over that a letter is not the same thing as the phoneme it represents. Second, the word doesn't just signify something but the word inheres in the thing or vice versa. I think it was in the 19th century that semiotics first proposed that a word is just a signifier for a thing and is assigned to it through a completely arbitrary process? We also know much, much more than the ancients did about how language constantly evolves. I do think we sometimes intuitively think otherwise, for example when as I mentioned you have a hard time divorcing a letter of the alphabet from the sound it signifies, or when you ascribe special significance to the etymology of a word which I see people do in essays for example. as if the origin of the word reveals something about how we should think about it today.
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Sep 24, 2020 08:31
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as an etymology nerd, i absolutely do think that knowing where a word came from should impact in how we think of it today, but not in a redundant manner where words can't change meaning over time or the origin acts to hide some essential truth about it, but in a way where the history of a word for a thing reveals a history of the people who use that word that might not otherwise be apparent, because someone, somewhere, chose to use that word in a new context to create new meaning that was relevant enough for it to become a new thing; where, for example, we know the history of britain being invaded because of texts and artifacts cataloguing the fact, but we can also see a slice of social structures underneath those factual invasions with the way norman words tended to only displace the base germanic versions for things important to high society. does knowing that recipe comes from the same root as receive, because it was used on written medical instructions by physicians make any difference? not really, but it can make you think about how medicine and food were not always such distinct entities as they are now, as naturally food would affect your humours and therefore was also - naturally - medical in nature.
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Sep 24, 2020 09:37
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Definitely agree on that, where I think it gets silly is when you try to make something more than a rhetorical point using etymology, like something I read the other day where someone tried to make some point about the nature of democracy by trying to interrogate what democracy meant to ancient Athenians, which is all well and interesting but doesn't need to have a bearing on what modern people mean when they say democracy.
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Sep 24, 2020 10:42
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well you see if we interrogate the origins of democracy as demos, the common person, and kratos, strength, we can clearly see what democracy meant to the ancient athenians, which was the rule of the mob  my favourite feature of athenian democracy gives us the word ostracism, a public event where everyone submitted names written on ostraca, broken pottery (as it was freely available), and whoever got the most votes past a threshold got kicked out of the city for ten years on pain of death. inevitably the main demographic ousted was political rivals.
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Sep 24, 2020 11:15
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Being able to vote people out Big Brother style is something we should definitely look into bringing back as a way of brining back engagement in democracy imho.
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Sep 24, 2020 11:20
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etymology is only really interesting in a mutt language like English, no? even then it kinda is pointless like like english, why is photograph called that, well you see the french invented it and they called it that (fotographia) okay why did the french call it that ,well you see in greek photo means light and graph means a written record so blah blah ok why is it φωτογραφία (fotographia) in greek, well you see the french called it that so greeks just did too b/c why not, it's good enough for English so hmmmm okay so why is photo called photo in greek. why graph. THERE IS NO REASOn??? they just MADE THAT poo poo UP? bonus round - In chinese it's 相片 (xiangpian) or 照片(zhaopian)... okay 片 is a sheet or slice of something, that's easy to see 照 is a sun, a sword, and a mouth all over fire which of course means something reflective/shiny. so instead of light record, it's a shiny slice. does knowing any of this mean anything... no. will I take a better photo or understand photos better, no. Will I understand ancient people's lived experience. No. It's a curiosity and fun time waster. Chinese calls movies 'electric shadows' and that rules tho. Actually chinese (or japanese) avoiding greek root meanings and doing its own thing is way more interesting. Telephone - electric word, Computer - electric brain. Cell phone - hand machine. etc etc now that's interesting
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Sep 24, 2020 12:31
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My favorite etymology fun fact is that hemp and cannabis descend from the same word. That is a word which sounded a lot like "cannabis" was borrowed from an Iranian language (we're talking about a steppe language like Scythian) into Greek and the Latin, and then into modern languages much later. Meanwhile the same Iranian word was borrowed into Germanic sometime early on, then went through lots of sound changes to turn into "hemp".
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Sep 24, 2020 12:36
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etymology is the modern version of numerology of language (like hebrew and greek) where you try to draw out some more significance to words than their speaker intended, giving words power beyond immediate communication between individuals and I'm against it
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Sep 24, 2020 12:42
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It's what you make of it really, you can do that but you can also just have fun with knowing the origin of words in the same way you read about ancient Babylonians just because it's interesting.
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Sep 24, 2020 12:43
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Antonymous posted:etymology is only really interesting in a mutt language like English, no? even then it kinda is pointless like it's even better, 照 is 昭 "bright" plus fire to make "shiny" 昭 is in turn 召 "call out" plus sun to make "bright" 召 is 口 "mouth" plus 刀 because it's the simplest/earliest written word to be pronounced like "call out" Chinese/Japanese disparities are also a fun rabbit hole to climb down, where Chinese have a "slice of light" Japanese have a 写真 "transcribed reality" (itself a doubly-cursiveified 宀 "to enclose" plus 舄 a type of bird that was a homonym of "transcribe", followed by ⿱匕鼎 "fork in cauldron" as a metaphor for divining truth.) So somewhere in there there's a really good trilingual wordplay between photographic plates as would have existed when the Japanese named photographs, and the quite literal process of reaching into a pot and putting something on your plate.
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Sep 24, 2020 14:34
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one of the cooler things etymology is used for that I have learned about is tracing the movement of Polynesian people as they settled the islands, since root words for things like "tree" normally stay the same, but then other ones change or are added, and they can use that as a data point in when certain islands were settled.
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Sep 24, 2020 14:49
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Hodgepodge posted:like i think adam and eve have specific numerological significance in hebrew as well i guess I mean my hebrew is bad and i don't know about numerological significance but the characters for Adam roughly can translate to red earth, blood, or man, and the characters for Eve/Chana corresponds to a lifesource.
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Sep 24, 2020 15:09
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Grevling posted:Interesting, does this have anything to do with Greek itself? the eastern christians had a direct line from the early jewish communities that made up very early christianity. they all spoke greek and so used the greek translations of the ot books. the west didnt and also didnt speak greek. as with a lot of things that happened in the 4-6th century the real reason for the anger was antisemitism
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Sep 24, 2020 15:28
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Grevling posted:I assume they had some explanations that were at the same time really clever and stupid. I'm pretty sure no, simply because this is the book that gives us a creation myth of the first man and woman, then has their children meeting other people and marrying them I like the whole pre-flood time because you can imagine (as TV shows on discovery have assured me) people loving angels and having kids, superpowers, giants, people living 900 years-------------- DnD, basically
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Sep 24, 2020 16:26
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Ghostlight posted:
The other cool thing is during archeological digs they did find broken pottery with names written on the pieces which backs up the story passed down from history. 
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Sep 24, 2020 17:21
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Grevling posted:Being able to vote people out Big Brother style is something we should definitely look into bringing back as a way of brining back engagement in democracy imho. I'm torn. On the one hand, I totally agree. On the other, I'm considering how many people *still* support Trump Ghostlight posted:as an etymology nerd, i absolutely do think that knowing where a word came from should impact in how we think of it today, but not in a redundant manner where words can't change meaning over time or the origin acts to hide some essential truth about it, but in a way where the history of a word for a thing reveals a history of the people who use that word that might not otherwise be apparent, because someone, somewhere, chose to use that word in a new context to create new meaning that was relevant enough for it to become a new thing; where, for example, we know the history of britain being invaded because of texts and artifacts cataloguing the fact, but we can also see a slice of social structures underneath those factual invasions with the way norman words tended to only displace the base germanic versions for things important to high society. Not quite ancient fact: English only became the language of the English ruling class when the black death killed most of the upper class people. (Apparently the Black Death disproportionately targeted educated classes.)
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Sep 24, 2020 18:25
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WoodrowSkillson posted:one of the cooler things etymology is used for that I have learned about is tracing the movement of Polynesian people as they settled the islands, since root words for things like "tree" normally stay the same, but then other ones change or are added, and they can use that as a data point in when certain islands were settled. Chronolinguistics absolutely sounds like it should be a pseudoscience but is in fact cool and good. My favorite piece of linguistics history is that "gold" and "guilt" come from "gild" as in "wergild," and the belief that defaulting on debts is a personal moral failing even when it's absolutely the right choice persists in the English speaking world much to the detriment of most non-corporate persons.
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Sep 24, 2020 19:53
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Nebakenezzer posted:I'm torn. On the one hand, I totally agree. On the other, I'm considering how many people *still* support Trump The history of Normans was pretty interesting how they successful "Stirred the pot" all the way over in Italy/Sicily and pretty much got started in France since the French king at the time Charles the Simple was too broke to pay them off during the peak of the Viking Era. The Norman involvement in Italy was because Normans pilgrims traveled through the area told all their friends about it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Owf5Uq4oFps
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Sep 24, 2020 19:58
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Nebakenezzer posted:I'm pretty sure no, simply because this is the book that gives us a creation myth of the first man and woman, then has their children meeting other people and marrying them
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Sep 25, 2020 02:19
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Ghostlight posted:as a point of order, it doesn't actually do that - cain's wife just materialises mid-narrative, and the reason for that is because lol OK, you may have asked why CSPAM has an ancient history thread, aside from as a chill space to discuss cool stuff I have found the answer So in the Georgia senate race, one GOP candidate says he's "as conservative as Atilla the Hun" and then his rival starts to argue Atilla is pro-abortion globalist my brain is bleeding, but apparently the son of Joe Liberman is also running and his claim to fame is writing a racist novel where he has a slave, or something, can't really get into it gonna play Dark Souls and listen to podcasts for awhile
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Sep 25, 2020 02:31
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Nebakenezzer posted:The nature of Christ, which got so bad that at one point a Byzantine emperor tried to officially get everyone to just never talk about it santa claus punched a guy about it and then that guy was never heard from again and no heresy happened the end Ghostlight posted:just absolutely screwed by some rear end in a top hat accountant nobody liked. i did really like his breakdown on just how far behind the new world was just in terms of being a settled land because i already kind of knew they rolled poorly on animals but never really thought about the fact that on top of that they had like ten thousand less years to even just breed good food. I'm a very strongly Geography Is Destiny guy and I maintain that the Americas' biggest preordained developmental problems were: - continents too vertical and not horizontal enough (fucks with trade and such) - caribbean too far south (anywhere with access to your convenient sea is annoyingly hot and full of mosquitos) yeah having less handy animals didn't help, but they had quasi-domesticated buffalo and extremely domesticated alpacas/llamas too bad they didn't live with them and roll in their feces like europeans Goatse James Bond has issued a correction as of 02:57 on Sep 25, 2020 |
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Sep 25, 2020 02:37
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one of the most interesting points Diamond makes is that a horizontal continent has similar weather and is easier to travel than north-south, making trade but also disease transmission and immunity more widespread
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Sep 25, 2020 03:44
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what's possibly the most harmful destructive single thing you could introduce into the ancient world? -the modern conception of racism? -gunpowder? -the chemistry/engineering theory needed in order to make poison gas bombs?
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Sep 25, 2020 19:15
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Kanine posted:what's possibly the most harmful destructive single thing you could introduce into the ancient world? capitalism!
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Sep 25, 2020 19:18
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Posting
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Sep 25, 2020 19:18
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the steam and/or internal combustion engine (or more accurately, the metallurgical knowledge to produce alloys that can withstand useful levels of pressure) would be far more destructive to the ancient world than gunpowder
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Sep 25, 2020 19:31
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Azathoth posted:the steam and/or internal combustion engine (or more accurately, the metallurgical knowledge to produce alloys that can withstand useful levels of pressure) would be far more destructive to the ancient world than gunpowder The gap between "prototypes of steam engines" and "industrial scale steam engines" is absolutely massive. It's not just knowledge, it's the population density to support fine scale iron working (e.g. clockmakers), proximity to extremely cheap fuel sources, and having a use case for crappy ones so that you can sustain and build the profession. Steam engines were used for pretty much only draining mines for nearly a century after they found a use case (which was 1500 years after the earliest prototype, and for that matter almost 92 years after the the patent was first issued for the use case). The real issue is that you need pretty specific economic situations for steam engines to beat "enslaving some neighbors." If we want to gently caress up old society I'm sure we've got some real nasty plagues we can come up with.
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Sep 25, 2020 19:55
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its not very materialist to think you can just go 'hey, ~capitalism~' or 'hey ~steam engine~' and think it'll do poo poo. lots of stuff including steam power was discovered several times before it was the right time for the idea to take hold if you really want to gently caress up the ancient world give them an accurate world map and an understanding of germ warefare edit: meaning 'here is where the gold is, here is where fertile land is' not just outlines of continents edit2: gently caress, beaten
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Sep 25, 2020 22:34
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Tulip posted:Posting romans with twitter would proscibe themselves to national suicide within a decade fuckers loved cancel culture
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Sep 25, 2020 22:50
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I think the ancient world would be very resistant to capitalism because the idea that markets should drive economies requires people to first believe that this should be done by anybody but the often or semi divine royalty or even just the community itself.
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Sep 25, 2020 23:27
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Which emperor would have the best tweet?
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Sep 25, 2020 23:41
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Tulip posted:Posting Posting has always existed. It took different forms throughout history, but it has always been with us.
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Sep 25, 2020 23:44
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Dalael posted:Which emperor would have the best tweet? elagabalus or caligula for sure elagabalus would 100% have an anime furry av
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Sep 25, 2020 23:57
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any of the 5 good emperors' tweets would be just like james comey's 
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Sep 26, 2020 00:00
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