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Who will you vote for in 2020? This poll is closed. |
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|---|---|---|---|
| Biden |
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425 | 18.06% |
| Trump |
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105 | 4.46% |
| whoever the Green Party runs |
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307 | 13.05% |
| GOOGLE RON PAUL |
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151 | 6.42% |
| Bernie Sanders |
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346 | 14.70% |
| Stalin |
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246 | 10.45% |
| Satan |
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300 | 12.75% |
| Nobody |
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202 | 8.58% |
| Jess Scarane |
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110 | 4.67% |
| mystery man Brian Carroll of the American Solidarity Party |
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61 | 2.59% |
| Dick Nixon |
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100 | 4.25% |
| Total: | 2089 votes | ||
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It would be amazing if Obamacare was somehow repealed but the replacement kept the Medicaid expansion. Mainly because the rhetoric of Hillary and Biden actually used Obamacare as an excuse not to do M4A so having it as an existing law on the books as such might actually do harm in the long run. They basically encouraged accelerationism on the issue
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Sep 27, 2020 19:39
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DeadlyMuffin posted:They are not imprisoned on the basis of their ethnicity. They are imprisoned because they crossed the border illegally. why do you think their presence is (often incorrectly because they're legally seeking asylum) called illegal lol. use your brain man
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Sep 27, 2020 19:41
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DeadlyMuffin posted:Absolutely. Those literally were ethnic concentration camps for undesirable minorites. People were put in them based on who they were, not what they did. absolutely unreal
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Sep 27, 2020 19:41
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SSJ_naruto_2003 posted:Like, I get that the state decided not to expand medicaid. Trump isn't bringing back the individual mandate, Biden said he would. Neither one is getting me healthcare in Alabama Medicaid expansion happened in Kentucky and Louisiana and Arkansas. It is possible to win on this in "red" states, and it wasn't the Democratic Party who gave Republican state legislatures the ability to undermine this. Trump is campaigning literally today on not only stopping all future expansion, but also rolling it back in every state. Biden, at the bare minimum, isn't doing that. DeadlyMuffin posted:They are not imprisoned on the basis of their ethnicity. They are imprisoned because they crossed the border illegally. no, they are imprisoned because the incredibly racist border cops detain anyone undocumented and hispanic on the presumption that they are have committed the misdemeanor crime of violating the US's incredibly racist immigration laws that discriminate on the basis of ethnicity. lots of people in concentration camps violated a racist law that only exists to justify mistreating them. that's how institutional racism works Cease to Hope fucked around with this message at 19:48 on Sep 27, 2020 |
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Sep 27, 2020 19:42
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Look, just because the majority of people in prison for crack use are black doesn't mean that they're punished unjustly for being black. They're being punished for illegally smoking crack. - someone two decades ago
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Sep 27, 2020 19:43
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Vote Howie, he's good and if he gets enough votes he might have a chance in 2024.
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Sep 27, 2020 19:44
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DeadlyMuffin posted:They are not imprisoned on the basis of their ethnicity. They are imprisoned because they crossed the border illegally. ICE is detaining green card holders too
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Sep 27, 2020 19:44
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CyberPingu posted:In the grand scheme of things the PRC is worse. But that doesn't absolve the US of it's atrocities at the moment This is not even remotely true. Someone could at least try to make an argument that the current PRC is worse than the current US if you ignore everything that happened more than 10 years ago (though they'd still be wrong), but it's unequivocally not the case if you're looking at the US's overall impact on the world. The reason people feel this way is because things the US does are normalized in such a way that they aren't viewed as "atrocities" in the same way as things foreign countries do are. Any sane evaluation of the US would consider the US's prison system alone to be a huge atrocity affecting millions of people, and that's ignoring the immeasurable harm we've caused over the years through our foreign policy. But when people think of the US it comes off as "nuanced" because, as people who either live in the US or in a country with a similar culture, thinking of the US brings to mind a bunch of things that aren't war crimes. It becomes "the US has done bad things" rather than "the US is a bad country." But when thinking of a country like China it's easy to play spooky music in your head and characterize them wholly by their crimes. Cease to Hope posted:Firstly, you are again confusing bad with worse. If people die under either president, but more people die under one of them, then the difference between the two are the people dying who wouldn't have died otherwise. That is what "people dying who wouldn't have otherwise" means. One of those two choices is worse, and the margin matters. How many people go under the bus to win in the long term? How do you win despite losing people who would've been able to support you if they hadn't gone under the wheels? You seem to be confusing some basic logic here. You can have a choice between two options where 100 people are affected in one and 95 are affected in the other, but the latter still includes people that aren't included in the former. So the point is that you're condemning people either way. It's not comparable with "choosing whether to hurt this group of people or not to hurt them." Both Biden and Trump will actively hurt a lot of people and will do so with different priorities. Cease to Hope posted:Secondly, you're always eventually going to lose in a democracy. You can't win forever. Your plan can't be to never, ever take power just because taking power is going to mean you eventually lose power. The idea that you shouldn't try to win the presidency because it means you're eventually going to lose elections to a countervailing force is just defeatism, and look how completely worthless losing the presidency but winning the House was in 2018. There does have to be a point where your politics involves fighting to help people, not hiding until the best time to try. Plus, losing doesn't automatically mean you win next time: you keep pushing this idea that we have to give Trump another term in order to win for real in 2024 and I don't know where you're getting the idea that the Democratic Party will totally be okay with and liable to fight to support an environmentalist leftist after eight years of Trump. What happens when the candidate in 2024 is Bloomberg or Buttigieg or Harris or Booker? Bury your head in the sand again and insist that voting for them will be another 10 years wasted on climate change? What's the plan if the left loses again the next time around? The problem with your reasoning is that you're acting like Biden is on the same "side" as the left here and represents some sort of positive progress, even if it's minor. Biden is not any sort of win for the left (and he doesn't even identify as the left himself) - he's essentially one faction of a right-wing party winning. The general election here is effectively just a Republican primary. Biden being an active harm makes a key difference here, because you're losing a bunch of down-ballot seats (and making your prospects in 2024/2028 worse) in exchange for what is essentially nothing. If the president was actually some sort of significant active good who at least espouses some of what you believe, you can argue that there's a benefit to having them in power that off-sets the various likely consequences of your party being in power. But this is not the case with Biden. Both choices here are "defeats" - you're simply choosing which defeat. If you guys are going to try and do some sort of utilitarian/pragmatic argument, you have to take it to its end conclusions, and that involves looking at all the consequences of electing someone. DeadlyMuffin posted:Absolutely. Those literally were ethnic concentration camps for undesirable minorites. People were put in them based on who they were, not what they did. lmao I didn't see this before posting my other replies It's always great to see that Democrats essentially share the same perspective as their Republican counterparts
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Sep 27, 2020 19:45
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DeadlyMuffin posted:
Are there any canadians in the concentration camps
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Sep 27, 2020 19:46
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ICE routinely detains American citizens who do nothing but fail the paper bag test and hold them for years, which someone might know if they gave even half a poo poo about what the united states government actually does instead of foaming at the mouth about the inhuman oriental https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/marine-veteran-us-citizens-detained-ice-aclu/story?id=67465583 https://www.npr.org/2019/07/25/745417268/u-s-citizen-detained-for-weeks-nearly-deported-by-immigration-officials https://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-citizens-ice-20180427-htmlstory.html
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Sep 27, 2020 19:46
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Rainbow Knight posted:ICE is detaining green card holders too Hell there's news stories of ice deporting us loving citizens. Efb
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Sep 27, 2020 19:48
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DeadlyMuffin posted:If you were to say "this is the path that leads to genocide" then I would agree with you. But that is not at all what you're saying. What is happening is awful, but it isn't genocide, and to call it that is disrespectful and wrong. I think you need to define what you mean by genocide: Genocide is an incredibly contentious term that can incorporate non-lethal methods such as Welsh sticks or blood quanta. Likewise, mass death and extermination camps don't need to be based in genocide, e.g. Pinochet's "politicide". Arguably, the left, and even liberalism, are both forms of genocide as they seek to eliminate the aristocracy as a people. There is absolutely nothing disrespectful about pointing out an atrocity as genocide when it even has just the smell of that about it. As someone who grew up hearing the stories of those who survived the Shoa, and the names of those who didn't, I am passionate in saying that the greatest disrespect is to be found in putting yourself against the people screaming in warning. The dead do not want to be elevated on a pedestal, they do not want your respectful sophistry: They are free of want. The living, however, want to be freed from the fear of the furnaces. And I am not saying "this is the path that leads to genocide", I am saying "this is the path called genocide". It is a long road and the landscape changes gradually. But surely.
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Sep 27, 2020 19:49
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SSJ_naruto_2003 posted:Hell there's news stories of ice deporting us loving citizens. Literally thousands of citizens a year get deported illegally by ICE. e: and guess what, it was also another loving horrific crime against humanity started by Obama! https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/pa4mq7/the-us-keeps-mistakenly-deporting-its-own-citizens quote:"Recent data suggests that in 2010 well over 4,000 US citizens were detained or deported as aliens, raising the total since 2003 to more than 20,000, a figure that may strike some as so high as to lack credibility," Stevens wrote in a 2011 report. "But the deportation laws and regulations in place since the late 1980s have been mandating detention and deportation for hundreds of thousands of incarcerated people each year without attorneys or, in many cases, administrative hearings. It would be truly shocking if this did not result in the deportation of US citizens."
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Sep 27, 2020 19:51
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DeadlyMuffin posted:They are not imprisoned on the basis of their ethnicity. They are imprisoned because they crossed the border illegally. They're putting green card holders in there and just stripped legal protections from a quarter million ethnic undesirables from Honduras, El Salvador, and Haiti so that they can put them in the camps. Show me the white people who overstayed their visas being rounded up and put in the camps.
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Sep 27, 2020 19:54
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Ytlaya posted:It's always great to see that Democrats essentially share the same perspective as their Republican counterparts If that perspective is that "borders should not be completely open" then I guess so. I don't think that's a particularly outrageous position. But I'm sure someone will be happy to tell me how it's actually genocide.
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Sep 27, 2020 19:55
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DeadlyMuffin posted:If that perspective is that "borders should not be completely open" then I guess so. I don't think that's a particularly outrageous position. But I'm sure someone will be happy to tell me how it's actually genocide. It's because it's a wafer thin pretext to put people of certain ethnic and national backgrounds in camps.
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Sep 27, 2020 19:56
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DeadlyMuffin posted:If that perspective is that "borders should not be completely open" then I guess so. I don't think that's a particularly outrageous position. But I'm sure someone will be happy to tell me how it's actually genocide. "borders should not be perfectly open, which is why it's perfectly fine for ICE to deport american citizens because they can't be assed to actually investigate citizenship claims and none of the concentration camp detainees have access to legal defenses or any contact with the outside world that would let them prove their citizenship"
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Sep 27, 2020 19:58
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Look, sometimes brown skinned people of south or central american descent that are provably citizens get thrown in the covid camps to die, but its not because ICE specifically targets based on skin tones because I'm a big smart boy that's voting for Biden
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Sep 27, 2020 19:59
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Ytlaya posted:Biden being an active harm makes a key difference here, because you're losing a bunch of down-ballot seats (and making your prospects in 2024/2028 worse) in exchange for what is essentially nothing. Biden being an active strategic harm doesn't seem to hold up here. You're completely sure that electing him will mean leftist gains in Congress (and elsewhere?) in 2022 but seem to be discounting the ability of Republicans to further stack the deck with disenfranchisement, Supreme Court dominance, redistricting, etc. in the meanwhile. I don't put a huge amount of stock in belief in the process, but I can't reconcile that process skepticism with this belief in the inevitable, unchangeable Congressional backlash. This is on top of the excess death you admit comes with Trump without ever expressing how you account for that; you just keep challenging me to answer for Biden's own lesser austerity when I've told you how I account for it. (Bad is better than worse, it sucks but it's not complicated.) There's also the possibility of another coronavirus-scale disaster that requires unitary executive action to handle, with Trump at the wheel. Malleum posted:Literally thousands of citizens a year get deported illegally by ICE. Obama was president in 2003 and the 1980s? poo poo, he has a lot to answer for!
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Sep 27, 2020 20:00
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Malleum posted:"borders should not be perfectly open, which is why it's perfectly fine for ICE to deport american citizens because they can't be assed to actually investigate citizenship claims and none of the concentration camp detainees have access to legal defenses or any contact with the outside world that would let them prove their citizenship" Why are you conflating my objection to calling these camps ethnic concentration camps for undesirable minorites and genocide with support for them? They are evil, should be abolished, and the people who allowed conditions to become so inhumane should be prosecuted.
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Sep 27, 2020 20:05
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DeadlyMuffin posted:Why are you conflating my objection to calling these camps ethnic concentration camps for undesirable minorites and genocide with support for them? because you are posting apologetics for some drat fool reason
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Sep 27, 2020 20:06
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DeadlyMuffin posted:Why are you conflating my objection to calling these camps ethnic concentration camps for undesirable minorites and genocide with support for them? I just got here. What part of the definition of concentration camp do they fail to meet
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Sep 27, 2020 20:10
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Cease to Hope posted:because you are posting apologetics for some drat fool reason Yeah, I probably shouldn't have brought up the idea that borders shouldn't be completely open. It's irrelevant to the discussion, and thought-crime in this thread.
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Sep 27, 2020 20:11
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Jewel Repetition posted:I just got here. What part of the definition of concentration camp do they fail to meet None. They're concentration camps. But I think they aren't genocide, and that calling them "ethnic concentration camps for undesirable minorites" is ridiculous hyperbole, and thus must be dogpiled.
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Sep 27, 2020 20:13
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DeadlyMuffin posted:Why are you conflating my objection to calling these camps ethnic concentration camps for undesirable minorites and genocide with support for them? because they ARE ethnic concentration camps whose express purpose is to remove hispanic individuals from the united states, which is why american citizens find their way into the system and then get deported because they aren't white you loving moron DeadlyMuffin posted:Absolutely. Those literally were ethnic concentration camps for undesirable minorites. People were put in them based on who they were, not what they did. and poo poo like this is literally apologia, because you arent detained for being in the US illegally, you're detained because you hang out in a home depot parking lot or the agent in charge of your case can't understand that different people have the same name or you happen to have a job while you have the wrong ethnicity https://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-citizens-ice-20180427-htmlstory.html quote:Victims include a landscaper snatched in a Home Depot parking lot in Rialto and held for days despite his son’s attempts to show agents the man’s U.S. passport; a New York resident locked up for more than three years fighting deportation efforts after a federal agent mistook his father for someone who wasn’t a U.S. citizen; and a Rhode Island housekeeper mistakenly targeted twice, resulting in her spending a night in prison the second time even though her husband had brought her U.S. passport to a court hearing.
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Sep 27, 2020 20:15
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DeadlyMuffin posted:But I think they aren't genocide, and that calling them "ethnic concentration camps for undesirable minorites" is ridiculous hyperbole, and thus must be dogpiled. you're getting yelled at because you're looking at racist law enforced by racists with eliminationism as their stated goal and thinking that it needs to be defended as a legitimate exercise of legal power you deserve it. thoughtcrime my rear end.
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Sep 27, 2020 20:17
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DeadlyMuffin posted:None. They're concentration camps. nah, it's exactly what they are. the talking point of illegal immigration is a thin veneer over blatant and extremely violent systemic racism.
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Sep 27, 2020 20:19
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Please, tell me how exactly someone getting put the concentration camp has anything to do with the borders when you are a hispanic housekeeper with a US passport and still get taken in by ICE because Cleetus Just Knows that all them messicans cleanin a house are illegals
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Sep 27, 2020 20:20
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DeadlyMuffin posted:If that perspective is that "borders should not be completely open" then I guess so. I don't think that's a particularly outrageous position. But I'm sure someone will be happy to tell me how it's actually genocide. Genuine question, how long do you believe ICE has existed? Do you believe that the borders were lawless wastelands before they existed?
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Sep 27, 2020 20:30
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DeadlyMuffin posted:None. They're concentration camps. Do you think these camps are worse than Welsh sticks? The latter is recognised as genocide. Why are you so concerned with the precise definition of genocide? One poster doesn't constitute a dogpile.
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Sep 27, 2020 20:31
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Neurolimal posted:Genuine question, how long do you believe ICE has existed? '03 Why do you think I support ICE? Disnesquick posted:Do you think these camps are worse than Welsh sticks? The latter is recognised as genocide. Why are you so concerned with the precise definition of genocide? What's Welsh sticks? Google gives me chairs. DeadlyMuffin fucked around with this message at 20:40 on Sep 27, 2020 |
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Sep 27, 2020 20:34
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DeadlyMuffin posted:No we aren't, for gently caress's sake. Yes we loving are, you goddamn ghoul. HDQ Neutral.
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Sep 27, 2020 20:39
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DeadlyMuffin posted:Why do you think I support ICE? The way you defend their actions seems to suggest that you believe that they are what stand in the way between you and those fleeing the impact of US foreign policy. In reality, the US managed its borders without concentration camps for quite a while. ICE is sadism, not border control.
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Sep 27, 2020 20:39
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Neurolimal posted:The way you defend their actions seems to suggest that you believe that they are what stand in the way between you and those fleeing the impact of US foreign policy. In reality, the US managed its borders without concentration camps for quite a while. ICE is sadism, not border control. Then you are misconstruing my posts. I believe the camps are evil, and should be abolished. So should ICE. Border control doesn't have to be, and obviously shouldn't be sadistic.
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Sep 27, 2020 20:41
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DeadlyMuffin posted:What's Welsh sticks? Google gives me chairs. Another chapter in the long, long book of British genocide. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welsh_Not
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Sep 27, 2020 20:43
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DeadlyMuffin posted:None. They're concentration camps. Whoa. The Sean fucked around with this message at 20:51 on Sep 27, 2020 |
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Sep 27, 2020 20:43
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Somfin posted:Yes we loving are, you goddamn ghoul. HDQ Neutral. This is awful. Do you think this is gassing immigrants? When you say we're gassing people you're invoking loving gas chambers.
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Sep 27, 2020 20:45
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Hey, DeadlyMuffin? gently caress you, you piece of poo poo
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Sep 27, 2020 20:46
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DeadlyMuffin posted:This is awful. Do you think this is gassing immigrants? When you say we're gassing people you're invoking loving gas chambers. Then split the hair and explain how this is different.
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Sep 27, 2020 20:47
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DeadlyMuffin posted:This is awful. Do you think this is gassing immigrants? Yes.
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Sep 27, 2020 20:51
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