|
I still find the interesting thing the implication that healing, preservation and immortality are specifically Dark Side abilities. That the Dark Side is about bending things out of their natural shape for your own benefit. Basically, Voldemort.
|
#
?
Sep 27, 2020 06:44
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 24, 2024 05:02 |
|
|
TheBigBudgetSequel posted:The Force gets new upgrades in almost every Star Wars movie, so while the newer upgrades may be not the best, the sequels weren't setting a weird precedent. Let's see: Star Wars:
Empire:
Jedi:
Phantom Menace:
Clones:
Sith:
Force Awakens:
Last Jedi
Rise of Skywalker
|
|
#
?
Sep 27, 2020 06:58
|
|
|
Ghost Leviathan posted:I still find the interesting thing the implication that healing, preservation and immortality are specifically Dark Side abilities. That the Dark Side is about bending things out of their natural shape for your own benefit. Basically, Voldemort. I feel like someone in this very thread said Harry Potter is just Star Wars but Luke kills Palpatine.
|
|
#
?
Sep 27, 2020 11:04
|
|
|
Honestly, of all the new powers, the only jarring one for me was teleporting objects
|
|
#
?
Sep 27, 2020 12:34
|
|
|
A big theme with Force powers I felt was that they're more about control of the body and the mind, (the Bene Gesserit influence becomes clear at times) and the implication that they're a thing that works better with the more subtlety. Luke tries to push against the weight of the X-Wing and all the swamp water to pull it out, Yoda simply makes it so that levitating out of the swamp becomes the easiest thing in the world for the X-Wing to do. It's ambiguous whether Darth Vader is actually manipulating physical forces to choke officers to death or convincing their throat muscles to close up on them. (Since he's able to do it over video chat to another spaceship and all) That might extent to manipulating energy, hence Force Lightning and the time Darth Vader blocked a blaster with his hand. Even works with Yoda seen as being able to redirect Force Lightning. (Come to think of it that basically exactly happens in Avatar TLA. Bitter Work is my favourite episode) It's really not that hard to define powers and abilities within vague but fairly consistent rules. Even Dragon Ball manages it, with its forgetful author and hilariously dumb plots, with a big part of why discussing it is so fun being that the characters have fairly defined skillsets and abilities, things they can and cannot do, and certain accomplishments are noted in and out of universe when they're unusual, and there's specific spheres of things which require technology, magic or gods to do. And even the occasional moment where 'How did you do that?!' is responded to with 'I have no idea.'
|
|
#
?
Sep 27, 2020 13:07
|
|
|
I kinda prefer the idea that there is no light side, that the “dark side” just describes selfishness
|
|
#
?
Sep 27, 2020 16:11
|
|
|
Yeah. Light Side and Grey Jedi feel like they're missing the point to me. The Dark Side is an aberration and an imbalance of itself, not an alternative legitimate path.
|
|
#
?
Sep 27, 2020 16:39
|
|
|
...I do wonder if it's ironic that the most powerful weapons Palpatine uses are mundane deception, trickery and manipulation.
|
|
#
?
Sep 27, 2020 17:39
|
|
|
I always though the force was inherently about going with the universal flow, and that the dark side was define really by going against it. Selfishness, but also fear. Anakin falls to the darkside because he wants to prevent death, but also Yoda was sort of doing that too when he refused to train Anakin despite the obvious implications of a midichlorian count that high. That was a mistake born out of fear (which he says in the movie), which leads to suffering like he said. It's an obvious eastern Daoist/Zen sort of thing, you as a person aren't supposed to want to bend the universe to your will, so any motivation that tries to do that using the abilities granted to you by the force is a path to the dark side. Here, there's a mirror to the empire, who try to force the galaxy into their order through violence, but will always ultimately fail. Ghost Leviathan posted:...I do wonder if it's ironic that the most powerful weapons Palpatine uses are mundane deception, trickery and manipulation. And I feel like that's sort of the point too? Palpatine is as effective as he is because he doesn't try to brute force the universe into following his commands, he basically instigates situations that leads to what he wants. He's evil, but his methods are noticable different than all the other dark side users in the movies, who depend on their fighting skills or direct violence with the force to initimidate and dominate.
|
|
#
?
Sep 27, 2020 17:49
|
|
|
Ghost Leviathan posted:...I do wonder if it's ironic that the most powerful weapons Palpatine uses are mundane deception, trickery and manipulation. That's how Sauron was so successful in early Middle Earth history. He got people to do evil things with the very best of intentions.
|
|
#
?
Sep 27, 2020 19:34
|
|
|
The Little Death posted:And I feel like that's sort of the point too? Palpatine is as effective as he is because he doesn't try to brute force the universe into following his commands, he basically instigates situations that leads to what he wants. He's evil, but his methods are noticable different than all the other dark side users in the movies, who depend on their fighting skills or direct violence with the force to initimidate and dominate. Well, exactly. Palpatine is most similar in methods to ANH's Obiwan. The Sith and the Jedi are similar in almost every way, etc etc
|
|
#
?
Sep 27, 2020 20:24
|
|
|
Schwarzwald posted:Well, exactly. Palpatine is most similar in methods to ANH's Obiwan. Well except for that one time he conjured Star Destroyers from the ether. Beelzebufo fucked around with this message at 20:40 on Sep 27, 2020 |
|
#
?
Sep 27, 2020 20:28
|
|
|
The Little Death posted:Week except for that one time he conjured Star Destroyers from the ether. Just wait for the Disney Obi-wan movie.
|
|
#
?
Sep 27, 2020 20:36
|
|
|
*Somewhere in the far future* Kenobi's distant descendant: "Hello there." *summons a fleet of Old Republic, High Republic, Republic, Rebel Alliance, New Republic, and Resistance ships from the past 1000 years* Paalpaatiinee: I know this is rich coming from me, but YOUR POWERS ARE BULLSHIT
|
|
#
?
Sep 27, 2020 20:44
|
|
|
TheBigBudgetSequel posted:The Force gets new upgrades in almost every Star Wars movie, so while the newer upgrades may be not the best, the sequels weren't setting a weird precedent. That’s not exactly what’s happening, though; the only thing that really changes is how the psychic powers are understood. In A New Hope, the basic point is that it’s ‘the future’ yet people still believe in God and spirits and whatever. Religion still exists - but the psychic powers are pretty much indistinguishable from stuff like hypnosis and sleight of hand. Simple tricks and nonsense. It’s Lucas pointing out that we might live in the 20th century, but people can still be fooled by a set of playing cards. Then, in next two films, Luke becomes a believer in God, and he witnesses a couple impossible/miraculous events. But, crucially, he’s always isolated with other believers. With the sole exception of C3PO’s magic flying chair, none of the muggles witness any crazy bullshit - and even the other magic witnesses end up dead. So it all stays firmly in Luke’s head. When we get to the prequels, of course, we have the twist that the psychic powers actually objectively exist. They’re physical forces skin to gravity and electromagnetism - so Jedi are basically The X-Men, with measurable biological traits. This is why we have Lucas’ scandalous assertion that physical damage to Vader’s body impaired his ability to generate psychic power. It was either that, or come up with increasingly convoluted reasons for why Luke just can’t perform when people are looking. So, what’s going on with the sequels? I honestly can’t tell you, but it seems to be full-on Matrix logic where you can just make things appear. The most sensible take is that objects are not ‘actually’ teleporting; it’s just that Ben Solo’s mutant powers are such that he can slice people up with the concept of a sword. It’s the concept that is passed between people - and, once Ben has that concept, he automatically combines Luke’s ability to generate perfect holograms with a separate ability to disintegrate flesh through sheer concentration. Think of Star Trek’s malfunctioning holodecks. But this is why things suddenly become straight bullshit, because it’s now literally that anyone can do anything as long as they concentrate hard enough. A laser sword’s not a terribly simple device, after all. The bigger problem, however, is that there’s no continuation from the other films here. What is being built on the previous twist?
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2020 05:32
|
|
|
I'd be actually kinda down if they went full Matrix logic and realised reality is an illusion (the universe is a hologram buy gold byyyye) and the Force is just tapping into what's actually real. 'Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter.'Vinylshadow posted:*Somewhere in the far future* Something something, come in with everything needed for a HUGE party GORDON posted:That's how Sauron was so successful in early Middle Earth history. He got people to do evil things with the very best of intentions. Sauron was also the Lord of Gifts, at least from what I gather in Shadows of Mordor. All Palpatine had to do was give two sides an army each and watch them go.
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2020 07:02
|
|
|
No, the objects are supposed to have been force teleported. I agree with you that the sequels went hog wild with force power expansions compared to all previous movies. However I, as a TLJ fan idiot, really thought the Force Teleconference kinda fit in with the old stuff. People can talk to the dead, maybe they can talk to each other. JJ clearly also liked the idea and wanted to 'and-then' it beyond what loving makes sense. That said the force handoff crap was one of the very few parts of the movie I found kinda satisfying. I dunno. I just wish they'd MCU-ize Star Wars. Make a movie about some people that can do X. Make a movie about some people that are fighting for Y. Make a movie about some people that are descended from Z. Put them all together LATER and it'll be fun. Give everyone some time to shine. Rogue One did well and those characters are explicitly dead. Cmon.
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2020 07:09
|
|
|
UK has DQ11 for 30 pounds on the e-shop. Is there any way an American can get in on this?
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2020 07:18
|
|
|
The Rey-Kylo connection in TLJ is not much different from whats shown at the end of the first Star Wars sequel between Luke and Vader, besides some stylized things like the water on his glove. That really seems to be the nudge that led to the teleporting lightsaber Or maybe JJ read that people called it "Force-timing" and said "let's Airdrop a lightsaber". Fair odds
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2020 07:18
|
|
|
If the Force Dyad stuff was all there was to Force Escalation, I think it'd be fine. Like it was weird but it was also decent cinema, even in RoS. Although we never got any sort of satisfying explanation as to *why* they had this vanishingly rare mystical connection. I suppose that's another casualty of Disney's lack of planning. To me, it also made the romantic tensions a little gross, but ymmv.
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2020 07:20
|
|
|
The dyad thing was completely pulled out of the air to let people choose their own hero in the final act of the movie. It affects nothing and explains nothing in in the previous two and a half films
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2020 07:31
|
|
|
Glottis posted:I just wish they'd MCU-ize Star Wars. So does Disney
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2020 12:56
|
|
|
SuperMechagodzilla posted:That’s not exactly what’s happening, though; the only thing that really changes is how the psychic powers are understood. This is kind of a big exception though, isn't it? "No one ever sees any of the magic stuff be real! Except that one time some people see the magic stuff be real." Doesn't that kind of disprove the theory before we even get to the prequels?
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2020 13:40
|
|
|
It's a bit funny given in-universe the flying chair could be chalked up to any number of things, given spaceships are real and all. C-3PO is playing the false god, but levitated by genuine divine power.
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2020 15:35
|
|
|
I rewatched Rock & Rule over the weekend. I am pleased to inform you that it is now Canon. All praise to Canon!
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2020 15:55
|
|
|
thrawn527 posted:This is kind of a big exception though, isn't it? "No one ever sees any of the magic stuff be real! Except that one time some people see the magic stuff be real." Doesn't that kind of disprove the theory before we even get to the prequels? That’s where it gets weird because, yeah, the chair scene is occurring fairly late in the final film and seemingly proving that telekinesis is real. And this is really bizarre for the narrative, because it’s literally the first time Han and the rest have actually seen something levitate - yet there’s no focus on their reactions whatsoever. They don’t even seem to notice. Moreover, the joke is that the telekinesis is somehow completely mundane: “these Ewoks are so dumb; they think the robot is their god, when I’m really just using the everyday radio waves from my brain to swing him thru the air.” The previous equivalent scene is when, after months of gruelling indoctrination, Luke sees Yoda make the X-Wing float and it totally shatters his mind - to such a degree that I guess he forgets X-wings have built-in antigravity generators. It was a big deal. So the chair scene is notably the first and only scene in the OT where the magic is played for comedy, the first where it’s presented as totally boring, the first where it isn’t dismissable as a trick or hallucination, and the first where it’s done right in front of muggle onlookers who don’t give a poo poo. This is a strange break from the logic of the previous films, and a clear precursor of the prequels and midichlorians. You could really say that midichlorians were entirely based on the implications of the chair scene. But, like a lot of things in Episode 6, it just happens without any real impact and instantly vanishes from the mind (like the part where Chewbacca gets shot). So nobody spent the last 30 years complaining about the demystification.
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2020 17:22
|
|
|
It's like the bit in a sci-fi story where they land on a planet and their laser guns look like magic wands to the enthralled primitives, except Luke is literally using magic to pretend he's using magic
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2020 17:50
|
|
|
I mean, the meta reason is the by movie 3 star wars was a thing, so that's when it started catering to fan expectations. Being a Jedi was cool, so the idea that the jedi weren't psychic warrior monks and were more a band of kooky mystics had disappeared.
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2020 18:04
|
|
|
Vader blocks blaster shots with his hand and yanks Hans blaster over to himself. Han knows 'The force can move stuff.' Also strangling people to death from across a distance seems like something that can't really be written off as sleight of hand.
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2020 18:31
|
|
|
SolarFire2 posted:Also strangling people to death from across a distance seems like something that can't really be written off as sleight of hand. I see someone skipped orientation day
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2020 18:40
|
|
|
SolarFire2 posted:Vader blocks blaster shots with his hand and yanks Hans blaster over to himself. Han knows 'The force can move stuff.' Oh right, I forgot about that. Han, Leia, Chewie, hell, even Lando all saw someone use the Force to move something in ESB.
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2020 18:40
|
|
|
SuperMechagodzilla posted:That’s where it gets weird because, yeah, the chair scene is occurring fairly late in the final film and seemingly proving that telekinesis is real. And this is really bizarre for the narrative, because it’s literally the first time Han and the rest have actually seen something levitate - yet there’s no focus on their reactions whatsoever. They don’t even seem to notice. What of the imperial perspective, where vader is notorious for choking everyone with accursed voodoo 2 slow
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2020 18:55
|
|
|
One of the central themes of the original movies is that the technology has become so advanced and so ubiquitous that the magic users are the ones who seem quaint and old fashioned. Essentially the jedi are running around talking about how great brooms are when literally everyone owns a roomba
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2020 18:59
|
|
|
SolarFire2 posted:Vader blocks blaster shots with his hand and yanks Hans blaster over to himself. Han knows 'The force can move stuff.' The fact that Vader is able to instantly choke people across huge distances is actually evidence against the magic being real. Not only is there no apparent latency, he's obviously directing his concentration at the TV screen instead of the person's actual location. As I said, the stronger hypothesis is that Vader is using hypnosis - until you get to the prequel twist that, no, we've done extensive scientific tests and it really is a sort of radio wave. As for the gun thing? Eh, magnets? It's a mechanical limb, after all. In general, it's also important to note the impact of subjective experience. When Obiwan performs the disappearing trick, Luke is not only watching from rather far away but, on top of that, Luke is reliving (what he believes to have been) his father's death - and that evokes all the associated issues he's had with growing up adopted, etc. It's is why he's screaming "no" and freaking out. So, I read things in the OT according to logic of "as though": Han is disarmed so quickly that it's as though the gun spontaneously leaped from his hand.
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2020 19:22
|
|
|
SuperMechagodzilla posted:The fact that Vader is able to instantly choke people across huge distances is actually evidence against the magic being real. Not only is there no apparent latency, he's obviously directing his concentration at the TV screen instead of the person's actual location. Huh? Luke is only screaming "no" because he's reliving his father's supposed death, not Obi-Wan's death? Han is disarmed so quickly that it's "as though" the gun leapt from his hand, even though we literally saw it do that? I mean, you can think that, I guess, but the movie is telling us otherwise. At least on the latter point. I feel like your theory only holds up if you ignore certain points, and I'm not sure why you're choosing to do so. Vader pulls Han's gun to himself. Luke makes 3PO float. Other people see these things. The far simpler explanation, and the one that doesn't require you to ignore whole scenes or pretend they only exist inside other people's heads for no reason, is that the Force actually does grant these powers, and always has. thrawn527 fucked around with this message at 19:33 on Sep 28, 2020 |
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2020 19:29
|
|
|
The Emperor's force lightning only seems impressive until you realize that the throne room is covered in shag carpeting
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2020 19:54
|
|
|
thrawn527 posted:The far simpler explanation, and the one that doesn't require you to ignore whole scenes or pretend they only exist inside other people's heads for no reason, is that the Force actually does grant these powers, and always has. That just means your ignoring different parts of the film, eg: ANH presentation of Obi-wan and his characterization. If the force really is as numinous as he advertises, how come in practice it looks like fast talking a traffic cop out of a speeding ticket? Schwarzwald fucked around with this message at 20:09 on Sep 28, 2020 |
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2020 20:06
|
|
|
thrawn527 posted:I feel like your theory only holds up if you ignore certain points, and I'm not sure why you're choosing to do so. I see this is your first time encountering SMG.
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2020 20:21
|
|
|
Schwarzwald posted:That just means your ignoring different parts of the film, eg: ANH presentation of Obi-wan and his characterization. Because he's actually using mind control to convince the Stormtrooper to let them go? He's not fast talking them out of anything. Is that what you think "fast talking" looks like? He tells them to let them go, and the traffic cop lets them go. That's not fast talking. Fast talking a traffic cop out of a speeding ticket would involve a bit more than what we see. Alchenar posted:I see this is your first time encountering SMG. No, but every once in a while I feel like banging my head against a wall.
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2020 20:26
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 24, 2024 05:02 |
|
|
Schwarzwald posted:That just means your ignoring different parts of the film, eg: ANH presentation of Obi-wan and his characterization. More to the point: why does Yoda wait to save Luke's ship and reveal his incredible power? It's not just being a dick or just preventing Luke from leaving in a utilitarian sort of way. It's showmanship. When you go back to phenomena like the popularity of psychic spoon-bending in the 1970s, we have tons of documentation and firsthand accounts from true believers, but we also know exactly how these tricks are done. It's been shown that people can be made to perceive the bending of a spoon through pure power of a suggestion: a fake psychic will simply tell the test subject to 'see' the bending of the metal as the object remains stationary on the table. LUKE: You know, I did feel something. I could almost see the remote. BEN: That's good. You have taken your first step into a larger world. So we can go back and look at those claims, in the same way we can reexamine the stuff in the OT in terms of Midichlorian Theory.
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2020 20:35
|
|