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Ciaphas posted:but letting loose stuff like this where a mistake could doom me 100 cycles down the line? Gasses transfer heat far better than you might expect from their mass and heat capacity, including into insulated tiles - hot gas will heat them fast but touching magma directly would not. Double-layering insulated tiles will make it so no heat ever escapes, even when they're made from common material like igneous rock. If you need ladders in magma make them from obsidian, other materials melt. All the metal stuff should be steel for the same reason. Pyromancer fucked around with this message at 07:39 on Sep 30, 2020 |
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Sep 30, 2020 07:32
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Pyromancer posted:Surround volcano and future magma reservoir in insulated tiles and vacuum out the gases anywhere near magma before letting it flow. So if I wall the volcano in double-thick obsidian insulation before I even dig out the thing, let alone try anything, it'll just harmlessly fill its chamber until it overpressures the Tile of Interest and stops - even if I don't vacuum first? (Which I would anyway.) That's safer than I thought, actually. Curious, is it actually "no heat" or so little as to make no difference? I'm a pedant  Something like an FJ-style petroleum boiler seems a lot of trial and error in Debug/Sandbox if I'm not going to straight copy his design It'd be hard to get in and fix the machine once magma and other hot stuff is moving. Unless suited dupes can actually swim in that crap safely (lol)
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Sep 30, 2020 15:19
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Ciaphas posted:So if I wall the volcano in double-thick obsidian insulation before I even dig out the thing, let alone try anything, it'll just harmlessly fill its chamber until it overpressures the Tile of Interest and stops - even if I don't vacuum first? (Which I would anyway.) That's safer than I thought, actually. Curious, is it actually "no heat" or so little as to make no difference? I'm a pedant They can at least enter magma. I recommend building everything tall enough that dupes can access every part of it even after it's complete. There's no radiant heating so if you build wall-vacuum-wall, no heat can escape from wherever you've sealed off. You need to create a vacuum around a volcano before you start playing with it. The gas will conduct heat rapidly.
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Sep 30, 2020 15:30
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Ciaphas posted:So if I wall the volcano in double-thick obsidian insulation before I even dig out the thing, let alone try anything, it'll just harmlessly fill its chamber until it overpressures the Tile of Interest and stops - even if I don't vacuum first? (Which I would anyway.) That's safer than I thought, actually. Curious, is it actually "no heat" or so little as to make no difference? I'm a pedant Tony Advanced did some experimenting with the heat transfers, for example here he shows how much worse having hot gas is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fD6tpJvW7o&t=595s But even with 9000 degree gas and first layer eventually heating to 1250 he only managed to heat the second layer from 20 to 25
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Sep 30, 2020 15:42
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Just pure maths rather than a rounding error, then. Neato. That sounds like much less of a pain in the rear end than the diagonal-construction chicanery for a vacuum-wall, too
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Sep 30, 2020 15:44
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Ciaphas posted:Just pure maths rather than a rounding error, then. Neato. That sounds like much less of a pain in the rear end than the diagonal-construction chicanery for a vacuum-wall, too Why would you need to do that? Build the inner wall, leave a space with a pump somewhere in it, build another wall. Or are you worried about opening up the volcano? Just open it when it's dormant. Though as pointed out, transfer between two insulated tiles is rather negligible.
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Sep 30, 2020 16:21
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Heat transfer mechanics get multipliers based on the phase of the material. Solid tiles have 1x the heat transfer rate. Liquids get 25x. Gasses get 625x (25*25). Do not let gasses get hot, they will wreck everything. Here's the easiest setup (assuming the volcano isn't the kind surrounded by hot obsidian): Dig an arbitrary pit. Oil or petrol lock access to it, in a tile above the volcano. Put some gas pumps nearby. Wall the inner layer of your pit with regular (not insulated) obsidian tiles. Layer the outside of those tiles with insulated tiles made of any material. Once your box is built all around the volcano, pull the room to a vacuum, and mine everything out. Sweep it all. Then pop the last tile and collect all your magma. The obsidian will heat up to 1726C from the magma. The insulated tiles will heat to maybe 2C above the air temperature around them. The ambient air around the insulated tiles will pull the heat out 625x faster than the obsidian can put it in, so a single wheezewort will outpace the leaking heat of an entire 20x20 pool of magma. The obsidian tile touching the magma will immediately heat to 1700C or so.
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Sep 30, 2020 16:22
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Shadow0 posted:Why would you need to do that? I was thinking the vacuum layer had to be one tile thick too for some reason 
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Sep 30, 2020 16:27
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insta posted:Heat transfer mechanics get multipliers based on the phase of the material. Solid tiles have 1x the heat transfer rate. Liquids get 25x. Gasses get 625x (25*25). Do not let gasses get hot, they will wreck everything.
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Sep 30, 2020 18:51
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Also because I'm a huge cheater I love making ultra-compressed gas rooms using the vent glitch (also conveyor loaded canister emptiers). Imagine my surprise when I forgot to remove an airflow tile when I expanded my oxygen room (to make room for more emptiers) and ~14k kg blew out across my asteroid. So now I have about 2k kg of oxygen literally everywhere.
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Sep 30, 2020 19:29
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LegoMan posted:Also because I'm a huge cheater I love making ultra-compressed gas rooms using the vent glitch (also conveyor loaded canister emptiers). Imagine my surprise when I forgot to remove an airflow tile when I expanded my oxygen room (to make room for more emptiers) and ~14k kg blew out across my asteroid. So now I have about 2k kg of oxygen literally everywhere. What is the conveyor loader canister emptier trick?
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Sep 30, 2020 20:28
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Heffer posted:What is the conveyor loader canister emptier trick? it's a mod that bottles gasses/liquids and puts them on a conveyor belt. Conveyor loaded canister emptiers (part of the mod as well) can be sealed behind walls. They do however only release gasses slowly and they have a 200kg capacity so if you really want to move gasses you'll need several. Canister emptiers don't have a pressure limit. Like I said I'm a huge cheater. I like basically playing sandbox with consequences.
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Sep 30, 2020 20:35
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There should be a more expensive sweeper arm that can do dumb tasks like that, compost flipping, bottle emptying, etc. It fits within the base mechanics just fine.
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Sep 30, 2020 21:05
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insta posted:There should be a more expensive sweeper arm that can do dumb tasks like that, compost flipping, bottle emptying, etc. It fits within the base mechanics just fine. I can see "auto-sweeper except it has a cartoon glove hand on a stick to do things with" in the ONI aesthetic,, too
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Sep 30, 2020 21:25
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What I really want is a robo-miner that can be moved around on a powered rail and can actually mine abyssalite. I like everything neat and tidy and so I usually clear out large sections and it's just a huge pain in the rear end. My newest method is ladder scaffolding in a line but even that causes dupes to get stuck sometimes.
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Sep 30, 2020 22:02
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The expansion and it's multiple bases will probably need something like basic drones to use all that nuclear power.LegoMan posted:Yeah a good example of this is just letting some water hit the lower magma layer. The steam that escapes is a hurricane of firey death      
Shumagorath fucked around with this message at 23:18 on Sep 30, 2020 |
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Sep 30, 2020 22:08
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You just trying to cool it? Or is that a long-term geothermal setup?
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Oct 1, 2020 01:05
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That's the right magma channel running under my base and I'm just trying to bleed off the heat into something useful so I can start digging down. The channel on the left is even worse and starting to turn dirt into sand and boil phosphorite, but the dig is way messier. I'm worried that as soon as I drop water into that chamber it's going to flash to steam and immediately pass an enormous amount of heat through the insulated tiles and kill my base even with some cool slush flowing behind the turbines. I can make steel now modulo slow lime production, so I'm thinking I might need a separate aquaturbine just for that generator pool. I have natural gas to bootstrap an industrial brick, but my layout is a loving mess of don't-touch-the-hot-rock and my usual slowdowns clearing caustic and slime biomes. Map for reference: https://toolsnotincluded.net/map-tools/map-browser/map/351415 I can't even get to that lower slime biome because the bottom of the "temperate" biome is 300ºC below a line of insulated tiles. The left caustic biome is half "hmmm, never seen THAT as a gas before!" Shumagorath fucked around with this message at 02:28 on Oct 1, 2020 |
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Oct 1, 2020 02:22
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Petrol-lock to the right side of your pit, build a giant cube of tiles, mine them out to create a vacuum. From there, dig down into the red, and mine the whole bitch out. All of it. Use obsidian ladders, corner-build into pockets of gas. Core it out TO THE LIQUID MAGMA, and then further. Build as many iron smart storage containers inside the steam pit as you can, set them to sweep only, and move every hot thing into them. If you run out, mesh tiles and another layer of iron smart storage containers. Build granite tempshift plates behind everything too. Now, put 3 steam turbines on top and an aquatuner below. You can use steel, go mine the Gravitas building if you need to. Water or p-water for the coolant, use the single layer of petroleum on the turbines themselves. Run the aquatuner via conductive wire (iron) powered by a large transformer running off the turbines, which are plugged into your main grid. Then, dump maybe 2000kg water into the pit.
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Oct 1, 2020 02:37
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I guess I'd better get atmo suits made 
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Oct 1, 2020 02:48
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Oh, yeah. You'll need like ... 3. I played a map that was littered with those abyssalite-ringed searing-hot obsidian boulders. This was always my strategy with them. Although, I usually did a 2-stage hotbox with a heat injector so I could keep the turbine steam room at 140C for self-cooling. It wasn't worth it, just flash-cool the things down. You must use iron smart storage containers. You do not need to power or automate them. You are better off fitting more containers with less stuff per each one if you want to flash-cool (maybe set the max capacity to 8000kg instead of the standard 20000kg). But, yeah, atmosuits & vacuum and your dupes can run around in that just fine. I'm really impressed you got the steam pit built without atmosuits tbh. Does that mean it's full of gas? If so ... um.
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Oct 1, 2020 02:53
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It's a vacuum currently; check the screenshots. I have the mod that makes single doors into airlocks so creating a vacuum is as simple as building a door against a solid wall then deconstructing the tiles on the far side. Yes it's kind of a cheat, but gently caress liquid locks. What's the advantage to coring out all the way down to the magma and putting everything in bins? Gas contact? Won't the granite tempshift plates potentially melt? I've already seen it sweating somewhere near the boulders and I think a big chunk of the rock below me started as magma. FYI I have no access to petroleum and have managed to run my first metal refinery on basic-rear end water.  That section of radiant pipe is running over a >20t debris pile of polluted ice I'm trying to melt into coolant. It's not exactly working. Am I limited to three turbines? I spaced the pit for a 4th. Shumagorath fucked around with this message at 03:33 on Oct 1, 2020 |
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Oct 1, 2020 03:23
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Coring everything hot and putting it into bins is just because working in the hot space is a pain in the rear end. If the blob of heat doesn't stretch to the magma, don't go that far. If you have cheatylocks, then use those instead of liquid locks. The granite plates won't melt because the steam turbines will clamp the temperature pretty quickly. They may also melt and then you learned a valuable lesson about taking advice from someone on the internet.
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Oct 1, 2020 03:32
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I have to assume the heat goes all the way through to the oil biome given that magma channel wraps back around to the same side of the map, and the pinch between the four oil wells and the hydrogen geyser likely means I have an enormous amount of pissed-off steam and/or sour gas down there. Same goes for the "cold" biome housing those two AETNs as the steam vent above them now has 5kg packets of phosphorus gas.
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Oct 1, 2020 03:37
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Is there a difference between these automated transformers?
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Oct 1, 2020 07:59
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temple posted:Is there a difference between these automated transformers? The point of turning the transformer off is so that it doesn’t emit heat when the battery is still charged; I think that they will continue to produce heat until their internal capacitors are depleted. Maybe not a huge concern but it’s the only effective difference I can think of.
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Oct 1, 2020 08:40
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temple posted:Is there a difference between these automated transformers? Second circuit uses more materials, creates more heat, and potentially wastes more power.
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Oct 1, 2020 10:05
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Can anyone spot the second critter in this room? This is the hell farm I've resorted to because lime is a loving pain in my rear end.
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Oct 1, 2020 22:45
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turn off "count eggs" and see if the number drops?
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Oct 1, 2020 23:03
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I've had one get caught in the conveyor loader before. It doesn't look like your power's out but see if there's anything in the storage of the loader.
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Oct 1, 2020 23:26
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Mouse over the tiles and see if something is caught inside a tile
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Oct 1, 2020 23:30
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seaborgium posted:I've had one get caught in the conveyor loader before. It doesn't look like your power's out but see if there's anything in the storage of the loader.  Notice the new egg hidden behind the sweeper....
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Oct 1, 2020 23:36
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 Looks like I'll be rolling back to give the aquatuner its own steam room, unless I want to juggle atmosuits to fix that...  No wonder the mealwood planters on these tiles were having trouble....  This whole section is just 
Shumagorath fucked around with this message at 02:02 on Oct 2, 2020 |
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Oct 2, 2020 02:00
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Why are the turbines not running?? Also, you can gang up the water outputs to a single pipe and drop them all out the vent nearest the aquatuner. The 95C water will do a good job cooling it back down. Just get the turbines spinning!
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Oct 2, 2020 02:35
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I was turning them off with the nearby battery. I guess if I want to cool down the rock that's not helping  I already ripped everything out of the pit (except the bins) to make a dedicated aquaturbine and hot industrial brick higher up in the base, but I can always roll back. Thankfully the turbines themselves don't need to be steel because it took everything I had just for the one aquatuner.
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Oct 2, 2020 10:21
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yeah you can't do that. The hot will continue heating, and the turbines will find an equilibrium for cooling. the temperature will stay some number under 200C for a few dozen cycles then slowly taper down to 125C. Then you pull steam out via the turbine instead of recycling it, which will raise the temp. Alternate back and forth until the rock itself is 125C.
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Oct 2, 2020 13:40
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An example of volcano temps from the previous discussion
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Oct 2, 2020 16:28
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Took me a while this morning to figure out that letting molten glass fall, solidify mid-air and hit the ground is perfectly ok. Thought it would shatter for some reason  One thing left that has my attention before I start trying to build any Space Stuff*: that volcano (e: speaking of which  ). I double-insulated it and vacuumed it out, and indeed the magma caused no harm before overpressuring the volcano. Some of the magma even solidified partly, maybe because of the neutronium or debris or something.I didn't leave a way back in besides deconstructing insulated tile. Can I do corner-building to replace it without releasing any magma, heat, or vacuum, or am I going to need to make a larger sealed area, then break it loose? And when I do so, what about the dupes? The way everything's positioned I'm not sure I can loose it again without someone getting a magma bath for a second. And since I'm talking about dupe access to machines... if I understand how thermal injectors work, closing an Airlock with no escape for the debris & fluids it contains causes those debris & fluid to be destroyed, then the door being opened again creates a vacuum across which heat can't conduct, right? In this picture, the insulated tiles to the right of the airlocks used to be a 3rd airlock. I wanted to try the same arrangement to allow dupe access to the machine later, so I set up the same arrangement; but even after I did the close-open thing the machine was leaking heat through that outer door like crazy, so I blocked it off. Any idea why? I'm guessing one of my assumptions about how injectors work is wrong.  * tried letting my base oxygen get sucked into space yesterday. it was somehow disappointing, it didn't happen fast. fluids are pretty slovenly in this game I guess Ciaphas fucked around with this message at 16:45 on Oct 2, 2020 |
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Oct 2, 2020 16:43
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Shumagorath posted:I was turning them off with the nearby battery. I guess if I want to cool down the rock that's not helping Yeah, just let the steam turbines run continually. They're machines that delete heat that have a side effect of producing a small amount of power, not power plants (unless you build a proper geothermal plant, rocket chimney, or similar source of reliable and consistent heat).
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Oct 2, 2020 17:54
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insta posted:yeah you can't do that. Because anything worth doing is worth overdoing:  That setup has ~20t of water to play with and should dynamically add and remove water from the system as the temperature fluctuates between 125ºC and 200ºC. I suspect the hot rock might overwhelm even that much water at the start.
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Oct 2, 2020 22:46
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